SAAB Navalized Gripen

GTX said:
Getting a little further off topic (though in my defence Sea Gripen is mentioned within this ;) ), this is one of the reasons why DCNS is supposedly promoting its PA2 carrier design to Brazil, as a future replacement for the NAe Sao Paolo. If a long term, package deal were preferred then the Rafale (in both land and ship based flavours) would stand a good chance of coming out on top.

That sounds like an ambitious sales pitch. "I know you've only asked for a fighter, but buy ours you'll need a new aircraft carrier too!"
 
It is ambitious though DCNS is a different organisation to Dassault Aviation so it is more two organisations working towards common, mutually beneficial although different goals.
 
Models of Saab Sea Gripen fighters aboard NAe São Paulo (A12), ex Foch (R99), at LAAD Defence & Security2013.

Source:
http://www.gripenblogs.com/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=606
 

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Models of Saab Sea Gripen fighters aboard NAe São Paulo (A12), ex Foch (R99), at LAAD Defence & Security2013.

Source:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23115145@N04/
 

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Models of Saab Sea Gripen fighters aboard NAe São Paulo (A12), ex Foch (R99), at LAAD Defence & Security2013.

Source:
http://www.naval.com.br/blog/2013/04/14/saab-sea-gripen-e-destaque-na-laad-2013/
 

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Saab promotional image for Indian Navy Sea Gripen.

Official Saab brief to the Indian Navy.

Source:
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/05/coming-soon-sea-gripen-detailed.html
http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/indian-navy/11071-saabs-official-brief-indian-navy-sea-gripen.html
 

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Source:
http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/indian-navy/11071-saabs-official-brief-indian-navy-sea-gripen.html
 

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Source:
http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/indian-navy/11071-saabs-official-brief-indian-navy-sea-gripen.html
 

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Nice briefing. Much appreciated.

It seems that most of the technical issues with carrier landings are fairly simple to fix, though I'm not sure how I feel about mounting the arresting hook on a fuselage panel rather than to the underlying structure.
 
The hook is connected to the engine door? Im pretty sure that that wont be strong enough since it is not designed to withstand any direct traction / tension forces. To the internal structure yes, but not to the door!
 
All "doors" are not created equal. I'd be interested to hear more about this one.

If they are serious, it probably isn't your average aluminum or carbon/kevlar/honeycomb door...
 
it may be that the Gripen's ability to land/takeoff on a small field means it can make a landing approach much slower and thus they don't need as strong a hook? though i'd imagine they'd reinforce the door mount anyway.
 
Landing speed depends on weight too, so does the needed hook strength.

For reference:
Gripen C landing speeds seem to be quoted between 125kt and 160kt
Hornet C landing speed is, apparently about 150 kt.

Gripen Empty weight: 6,800 kg (12,600 lb)
Hornet Empty weight: 10,400 kg (23,000 lb)
 
"Brazilian F-X2 deal gives fresh impetus to Saab's Sea Gripen concept"
Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
18 December 2013

Source:
http://www.janes.com/article/31778/brazilian-f-x2-deal-gives-fresh-impetus-to-saab-s-sea-gripen-concept

Brazil's decision to procure the Saab JAS 39 Gripen E to satisfy its F-X2 fighter replacement programme has breathed new life into the company's Sea Gripen concept, a source told IHS Jane's on 19 December.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the source said that the deal for 36 aircraft for the Brazilian Air Force "opens up a whole new realm of possibilities" for the Sea Gripen, with the Navy having a notional requirement for 24 aircraft to operate from its Sao Paulo aircraft carrier.

Having targeted the concept at Brazilian and Indian naval requirements, Saab now has a programmatic and industrial presence in one of those countries giving it an invaluable foothold with which to promote its Sea Gripen.

Further to the opportunities afforded by the F-X2 deal, the source told IHS Jane's that discussions with India have been taking place behind the scenes. "There has been a conversation with the Indian Navy, which is looking at the Sea Gripen separate to the [Indian Air Force] MMRCA [Medium MultiRole Combat Aircraft requirement]," he said, adding: "The Indian Navy [interest in Sea Gripen] never went away."

First revealed by Saab in 2010, the Sea Gripen concept features a number of navalised enhancements to the baseline Gripen E fighter to make it suitable for carrier operations. These include a strengthened undercarriage, bigger brakes, and a beefed-up tail hook.

The standard Gripen already has a large number of the attributes for carrier operations, such as a high precision landing capability, a high pitch and roll rate authority and precision glide slope control, a reinforced airframe and enhanced anti-corrosion protection. Its undercarriage and airframe is already capable of a sink rate of 15 ft/s, though this would need to be increased to about 25 ft/s for carrier operations.

As Saab is pitching the Sea Gripen for 'short take-off, but arrested recovery' (STOBAR) operations, it does not need to be equipped with the nosewheel-mounted launch bar required for 'catapult-assisted take-off, but arrested recovery' (CATOBAR) ships. As such, it could operate from both types of carriers, making it a suitable option for the Indian Navy's STOBAR ships INS Viraat and INS Vikramaditya , and future indigenous carrier; as well as the Brazilian Navy's CATOBAR Sao Paulo (it should be noted that the lack of a 'ski jump' on this ship might present issues in terms of the Sea Gripen's maximum take-off weight).

According to the source, Saab has completed all of the feasibility studies for the Sea Gripen and now just requires a launch customer to fund further development and production. While Brazil's F-X2 announcement does not yet provide this, its implications could be very fortuitous for the concept. As the source put it to IHS Jane's ; "The Brazilian deal currently changes nothing [for the Sea Gripen], but could change everything."
 
sferrin said:
Hmmmm. The dollar signs seem to be notably absent. ???

Aren't they always until times, dates, numbers and terms emerge?
 
F-14D said:
sferrin said:
Hmmmm. The dollar signs seem to be notably absent. ???

Aren't they always until times, dates, numbers and terms emerge?

Yeah but it would cost the same to navalize a Gripen whether you bought one of the them or a hundred.
 
sferrin said:
F-14D said:
sferrin said:
Hmmmm. The dollar signs seem to be notably absent. ???

Aren't they always until times, dates, numbers and terms emerge?

Yeah but it would cost the same to navalize a Gripen whether you bought one of the them or a hundred.

The development cost would remain the same, more or less, the amortization of which would vary per number ordered, although how fast you wanted it to take.. The unit price to build, though, would depend on the factors I listed. One I left out but critical is the production rate.
 
Brazil seems intent on ordering two aircraft carriers from foreign shipbuilders. Both are to be equipped with Gripen aircraft, an unidentified source within the Brazilian Air Force is reported to have said.

The carriers are needed for the protection of major oil fields.
The 50+ year old carrier Sao Paolo is showing its age and badly in need of replacement.

http://colunaesplanada.blogosfera.uol.com.br/2014/02/09/marinha-vai-comprar-dois-porta-avioes-para-os-novos-cacas/
Marinha vai comprar dois porta-aviões para os novos caças

Com a confirmação da compra dos 36 caças Gripen, chegou a vez de a Marinha cobrar do governo a realização do Programa de Obtenção de Navios-Aeródromos, engavetado no Planalto.


O plano prevê a encomenda de dois porta-aviões a estaleiros estrangeiros, com construção em parceria com a Força.
Os caças Gripen serão adaptados para pousar nos porta-aviões, conta fonte da FAB. Os porta-aviões, segundo a própria Marinha, serão fundamentais para proteger a costa brasileira na ‘faixa que vai de Santos a Vitória, onde se localizam os principais campos produtores de petróleo’, e a foz do rio Amazonas.
Atualmente, o Brasil conta apenas com o porta-aviões São Paulo, ancorado na base naval do Rio, comprado da França em 2000, com mais de 50 anos de uso.
Mas a ‘idade’ do porta-aviões São Paulo está pesando. Há poucos dias houve dois incidentes com o navio, quando saiu para exercícios na Baía da Guanabara, no Rio. Derramou óleo no mar e provocou vazamento de vapor que atingiu três oficiais.
A Marinha ratifica para o governo a importância da armada: ‘Em caso de crise ou de conflito armado, é dever da MB impedir a aproximação de uma força naval adversária’
 
"Saab Gets A Toe In The Water"
Sep 17, 2014 by Bill Sweetman in Ares

Source:
http://aviationweek.com/blog/saab-gets-toe-water

Two Swedish delegations have recently visited the Brazilian aircraft carrier Sao Paulo in support of plans to develop a naval version of the JAS 39E/F Gripen fighter. A government team toured the ship in August, followed by a Saab-Embraer technical/engineering group in September.

Informally known as the Gripen M (Maritime or Marinha), the carrier-based version has been under study in parallel with the E/F since the program's early years. In 2013, in the run-up to Brazil's selection of the JAS 39E/F as its next fighter (with a contract due at year-end), Saab said that its company-funded study had brought the Gripen M to the point where it could be offered as a fixed-price development program, costing $250 million and taking five years from launch to production deliveries.

Saab and Brazil have already agreed that Embraer will lead the development of the two-seat JAS 39F, subject to the final contract, and development of the Gripen M could broaden that partnership. Ownership of an operational aircraft carrier is clearly a prerequisite for a Gripen M partner, and both India and Brazil have been approached.

Brazil's Sao Paulo carrier, formerly the French navy's Foch, has taken a long time to upgrade and restore to operational condition, but the Brazilian navy has persisted both with the ship and its current air wing, including a major upgrade of its AF-1 Skyhawk fighters with a new Elta radar and glass cockpit. One report suggests that Brazil expects the ship and its air wing to be operational in time to support security for the 2016 Olympic games in Rio de Janeiro.
 
Triton said:
"Saab Gets A Toe In The Water"
Sep 17, 2014 by Bill Sweetman in Ares

Source:
http://aviationweek.com/blog/saab-gets-toe-water

Well if they go this route, They could get a decent share of an admittedly small market. their only competition being Rafale and the MiG-29K. F/A-18E/F isn't really a player since it was designed around operations from US supercarriers, and since the UK's CVFs being STOVL ships, there aren't any other carriers around that can comfortably operate Super Bugs to full effectiveness.
 
It really seemed that the F-X2 Project was really a contest between the Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen and that political forces were pushing for the Boeing F-18 Super Hornet at the eleventh hour. I don't believe that anyone was surprised when Brazil chose the Gripen NG for F-X2 and would want to acquire a navalised Gripen.
 
You guys forgot about a very infamous new carrier fighter plane, which name I dont want to mention, since I dont want to start a huge discussion and this thread to be closed in the end. ;)
 
Not remotely an option, just on technical grounds. If the Super Hornet is too big for Sao Paulo (which it is), so is the CTOL F-35. And STOVL is out because they've already paid for a bunch of work on the catapults.
 
TomS said:
Not remotely an option, just on technical grounds. If the Super Hornet is too big for Sao Paulo (which it is), so is the CTOL F-35. And STOVL is out because they've already paid for a bunch of work on the catapults.

For the Super Bug, the issues go beyond just size. It's naturally much heavier and its wind over the deck requirements can 't be met on smaller carriers. Plus, it has a pretty high approach speed which would make for quite "enthusiastic" traps on small CVs.

The F-35C is actually smaller in all dimensions than the Super Bug. However, one thing the Navy had to give up in the forced marriage that became the F-35 (Not trying to start a war, Clearly the services would have preferred to develop their own a/c if they had been allowed to), one of the things the Navy had to give up was the ability to raise and lower the engine in the "shadow" of the aircraft. This means the F-35 requires a lot more space for maintenance, which would be a problem on a smaller CV.
 
I was thinking more about weight - the F-35C empty is about at the upper limit for the catapults on Sao Paulo, and probably for the arresting gear too. The Super Bug is a shade lighter, though not much. Both are way heavier than Sao Paulo could operate without major changes, if at all.
 
Source: http://saab.com/globalassets/commercial/air/gripen-fighter-system/pdf-files-download-section/facts/gripen_m_factsheet.pdf
 

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What are the chances that Brazil will replace the Sao Paulo with a new aircraft carrier?
 
FighterJock said:
What are the chances that Brazil will replace the Sao Paulo with a new aircraft carrier?

A very good question, given not only the current chaos in the country, but also in the region in general.
 
FighterJock said:
What are the chances that Brazil will replace the Sao Paulo with a new aircraft carrier?

Extremely slim, I'd say. Their nuclear submarine project will eat up the lion's share of the navy budget and they have much more pressing concerns (new Scorpenes, new corvettes). The SSN has already been delayed until at least 2025 due to the budget crunch.
 
FighterJock said:
What are the chances that Brazil will replace the Sao Paulo with a new aircraft carrier?
Ever or in the near future? There is, I understand, a standing requirement for a new carrier but as batigol points out the submarine program is eating up the budget and resources at the moment. I'd say it will be awhile.
 
Sao polo decomissioned ? ??? this is the end of the Foch, for good. I'm only half surprised: it had all kind of teething problems (catapults and boilers).
 

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