SAAB FS2020 Stealth Fighter Concept

[Trident]

I think what the Kanzler a. D. means is that Shinshin does not appear to have sufficient space reserves for a bay, even if one was required. There is some merit to the argument that you cannot build a useful VLO fighter below a certain threshold size, as the payload has to be accommodated internally but scales down only in discrete increments. I guess by limiting yourself to 4xMica AAMs or 2xMica + 2xSDB and no gun and no IRST it might be possible to build an aircraft which is appreciably smaller than the F-35 and yet still provides some military utility. But even if you got the external dimensions down to something approaching the Mirage 2000 or Gripen, empty weight would likely not be 7000kg class.

If the compact AAMs mulled in the US come to fruition or directed energy weapons can be made really compact, that may change the dynamic, and of course getting rid of the pilot would help a lot, too. In fact, this Saab concept seems to be premised exactly on the two former points!

 

[flateric]

Saab Receives Order for Studies on Future Fighter Aircraft Development

Saab has received an order from the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration, FMV, relating to future fighter aircraft development. The contract includes studies on future combat air capabilities.

www.saab.com

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Does anyone have original 2008 SAAB presentation for Korea?

A bit late of a reply but I can give you some help. The presentation took place on a seminar called "한국 공군력 건설방향과 과제 The Combat Power Enhancement Strategy for the ROKAF" by organized by KODEF and ROKAF, held in 26th of June 2008. KODEF used to have every presentation ppt files on their website but it seems like it went haywire now.

I could suggest writing them an email but wouldn't expect much from them. Maybe there might be someone on the Korean web that has the file, but most older military enthusiasts these days are active on Facebook rather than a forum so it'll be harder to find. I'll ask on a forum I use if one of the members still has this file on their drive, but like I've said, don't expect much.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Does anyone have original 2008 SAAB presentation for Korea?

So I've got a response from the person who had the presentation, and apparently its gone now. KODEF database also went down long ago.Thing's only gonna be left in SAAB.

Though here are two additional slides from the presentation. It was about SAAB's proposal for the KF-X program (P306). Coutesy Minki of Bemil.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Sweden asks Saab to study 'future fighter concepts' - Breaking Defense

As Stockholm plots its way forward, Saab CEO Micael Johansson had called for such a study in a previous interview with Breaking Defense.

breakingdefense.com

Saab receives order for Swedish future fighter concept studies

Saab has received an order from the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) regarding conceptual studies for future fighter systems. The contract period is 2024-2025.

www.saab.com

This study is a follow-up study for the previous study comissioned in 2022, posted by Flateric above. The scope of research seems similar, but it seems like it's a bit more detailed and emphasizes demonstration.

 

[Scott Kenny]

A proper 5th gen replacement for Gripen would probably sell really well if the costs could be kept below the F-35's. Focus on a fully internal air combat load, supercruise, excellent sensors & datalinking. External carriage and A2G weapons physical loading can be tested early while multirole software upgrades can come later. Too many countries with old fighters needing replacement, and Gen 4++ is not the future. None of this necessitates a 40,000 lb thrust class engine and a fat body that hamfisted too many features across a family of aircraft. A sleek body and a single F414-EPE would do it.

How exactly is an aircraft 5th gen if it keeps all its ordnance externally?

Low Observable is one of the definitions of 5th Gen aircraft.

Nobody calls the Eurofighter Typhoon 5th Generation, even though it was designed around the same time as the F22.

So you are going to have to stick a weapons bay into the design. The KF21 is closer to 5th gen than 4th gen, even though it's still got conformal missiles and 4th gen engines. I usually call the KF21 4.75gen because it's got a lot more LO shaping than the Rafale or Super Hornet, and it does have space reserved for an internal weapons bay under where the Meteor missiles are carried conformally. Just that the bay won't get developed out until Block 3, apparently.

@VTOLicious did a what-if for the smallest possible fighter with an internal weapons bay of reasonable size, and used the Boeing External Weapons Pod as the model for the bay in the design. While I have issues with that particular bay size because it cannot carry both 2x AMRAAMs and 1x 2000lb (or even 1000lb) bomb, it can carry 2x AMRAAM and 6x SDBs. I suspect that if that bay was widened ~10"/25cm it'd have enough space for 2x AMRAAMs and 1x 2000lb class weapon. Or 2x AMRAAM and 8x SDBs, which is the vastly more commonly used weapons load.

Also, trying to keep all the systems of a Gripen or F-35 in a LO/VLO airframe is not likely to be much cheaper than an F-35 for purchase price. Your hope is going to be for keeping your operational costs at something like half those of the F-35.

 

[snne]

So you are going to have to stick a weapons bay into the design. The KF21 is closer to 5th gen than 4th gen, even though it's still got conformal missiles and 4th gen engines. I usually call the KF21 4.75gen because it's got a lot more LO shaping than the Rafale or Super Hornet, and it does have space reserved for an internal weapons bay under where the Meteor missiles are carried conformally. Just that the bay won't get developed out until Block 3, apparently.

you're skipping the skin and panels of the aircraft and possible necessary changes to the interior as well, but combined with internal bays, these should give it enough LOity to be a credible 5th gen. Maybe LRIP (i.e. Block 1) or Block 2 aircraft will have a more refined skin, that should also be expected.

Regardless, it's still a pretty good aircraft even as a "4.75th gen".

Also, trying to keep all the systems of a Gripen or F-35 in a LO/VLO airframe is not likely to be much cheaper than an F-35 for purchase price. Your hope is going to be for keeping your operational costs at something like half those of the F-35.

And that would still end up being expensive asf for even some NATO countries...

 

[TomcatViP]

Do not forget that South Korea main opponent does not have competitive air power beyond an IADS. Relaxing the introduction of a full 5th gen stealth level of RCS to speed up fighter modernization is way more efficient than joining the endless rethorical debate around who's got the best 4th gen.

Among them, the KF-21 is the only one to have a step in the future. That's the concept. Su-35, Typhoon, Gripen or Rafale, rationally, are all walking dead.

For defeating IADS, Korea got F-35s.

 

[snne]

Do not forget that South Korea main opponent does not have competitive air power beyond an IADS. Relaxing the introduction of a full 5th gen stealth level of RCS to speed up fighter modernization is way more efficient than joining the endless rethorical debate around who's got the best 4th gen.

I'd say their main opponents are : 1st China and 2nd(?) Japan now. the North is a bit like a looming threat with nuclear weapons and a huge artillery base but nothing else. If no provocation is made, i figure they will just sit and wait out what's going on around them (since getting involved would mean the end for them even if they use the nukes).

 

[timmymagic]

Stealth Draken?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1793542061200953539

View: https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1793542061200953539

 

[snne]

Stealth Draken?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1793542061200953539

View: https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1793542061200953539

Why do we all assume that it has to be a "futuristic" looking adaptation of an old design?

 

[Scott Kenny]

Regardless, it's still a pretty good aircraft even as a "4.75th gen".

Agreed there.

And that would still end up being expensive asf for even some NATO countries...

Yes. Being anything resembling competitive costs. Need some thing cheap, fly an FA50 or M346 for your Air Policing missions.

 

[apparition13]

Stealth Draken?

If I were going to try to stealthify an old design Draken, Vulcan, and Victor would be at the top.

 

[helmutkohl]

the post mentioned that a slide with numerous concepts was removed.
I wonder if anyone managed to keep a picture of that slide. very curious.