SAAB Fighter / Attack projects

[Justo Miranda]

[quote

BTW: J-51 doesn't fit too much with Flygvapnet number series. The contemporary Draken was J-35, while the much later Viggen was "37" and Gripen is "39". Following the sequence I imagine that J-51 is expected to be used for some Flygvatnet frontline fighter in a distant future.

Regards

Antonio


[/quote]

Hi Antonio,
This gets interesting , at http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3477.0.html
I have another project of 1941 known as Jagdente J47.
I believe it is a series of projects which letter "J" is actually not related with the designation of the Royal Swedish Air Force service planes.
This may possibly explain the numbering "210" for the "Lilldraken"
It would be very helpful to verify whether the SAAB LX (also of 1941 and by the same designer) had any project associated. http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1699.0/highlight,saab%20lx.html
Also if the "Jagdente" word is related to the "J" letter of the projects
There exist a similar confusion in the Luft46 wordl between the V2 and V-2 ,the first one refers to the "Versuchsmuster" -prototype- and the second to the "Vergeltungswaffe" -vengeance weapon-

 

[Justo Miranda]

Sorry wrong text...


It would be very helpful to verify whether the SAAB LX (also of 1941 and by the same designer) had any project NUMBER associated.

 

[Antonio]

I believe it is a series of projects which letter "J" is actually not related with the designation of the Royal Swedish Air Force service planes.
This may possibly explain the numbering "210" for the "Lilldraken"

You're right, that could be an explanation.

 

[JAZZ]

Matej...not a simplified color 3 view, but a render which is quick and a little on the rough side. Three views take too long and you spend to much time scaling.

 

[Matej]

I like your renderings JAZZ. They are simple, but nice and done quickly. I know that 3 views are much-more complex and they need a lot of time, but everybody should do, what he can do the best

 

[dan_inbox]

cant be that the AR french magazine show design study of DRAKEN and not real thing ?
or give a french Artis the order to draw one ?

The French text says:
"A Swedish magazine has published the above drawings, which..."
So the French magazine did not commision the drawings but re-used the Swedish ones

It says also:
"Let's note that some months ago the nose was heavily modified, which makes us think that dive tests have been conducted up to subsonic speeds."

Which leaves no doubt that for them this flight test machine was in existence. What they don't sound sure about, is whether the name given is the correct one. (normal for the then-Cold War conditions).

 

[JAZZ]

Interesting Saab study for a maritime attack fighter dated May 1961, to be armed with 4 RBS-04 ASM's

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

RX1 may be the one of the turbojet powered J 21B concepts.

Jon

 

[borovik]

SAAB effort for a Mach 2 fighter began in 1949 into the 1200 series designation. Early work was based on J-32 derivatives with more power.

Project 1210: rocket powered
Project 1220: supersonic radically modified J-32 derivatives
Project 1230: no data available
Project 1240: no data available
Project 1250: double delta concepts

J-35 evolved from Project 1250 research

1) SAAB Project 1220 (1949)
on base A32 (Project 1100)
max. speed M=1,35
ceiling 15000m (for 4 minutes 10 sec.)
arm. 2 x Rb 321
2)-3) SAAB Project 1250, variant (april 1951)
engine "Glan"
sources:V.Rigmant "Fighter SAAB 35" Aviacollection #8,2008

 

[GTX]

Hi folks,

I have read of the proposed SAAB J-21B. This was a to be a post-war upgraded variant, with a Rolls-Royce Griffon or Packard Merlin inline engine, a pressurised cockpit, heavier armament and a bubble canopy, It was however overtaken by the jet J-21R development. To date, the only image I have found of this proposed design is this:

Has anyone any others?

Regards,

Greg

 

[Spark]

Hi Greg

Are the exhausts for an inverted V? NEW fuel with a better octane rating, a change of a screw setting and the original engine was better than the Merlin

 

[GTX]

Hi Greg

Are the exhausts for an inverted V? NEW fuel with a better octane rating, a change of a screw setting and the original engine was better than the Merlin

Yes, I have read that the original DB 605 run on 100 octane fuel was just as good (if not better) than the other engines. For one, the prop/boom interference wasn't a problem as the other engines might have been. Either way, I am interested to see what the J-21B might have looked like.

Regards,

Greg

 

[AeroFranz]

Thanks for posting the pic, I had never heard of this version. The bubble canopy definitely gives a sleeker appearance compared to the more 'hunchback' look of the RR Goblin-powered -R version.
Unfortunately my best SAAB refrence, "SAAB Aircraft since 1937" by Andersson has no pictures of the -B. Sorry.

 

[Apophenia]

No images (sorry Greg) but I did see mention of radar in the starboard boom.

Interesting about the DB605E running on allied 100 octane fuel -- quite a jump from the Luftwaffe's C3 fuel at 95 octane (or less, according to Fischer-Tropsch documents).

 

[Jemiba]

Quite a while ago, I got a drawing of the Saab RX-1 , a project for a pure
jet fighter, but to my opinion with remarkable similarity to the J-21B as shown. Sorry, don't
have the source in the moment, but maybe boxkite can help, as he sent me the picture ?
(Huhu, Thomas, bist du da ? ;D )

 

[GTX]

Unfortunately my best SAAB refrence, "SAAB Aircraft since 1937" by Andersson has no pictures of the -B. Sorry.

Yes, I checked there first as well.

Regards,

Greg

 

[Tophe]

In a source I do not remember (that dear Justo sent me I think) I read that the J21B was scheduled with Griffon engine, bubble canopy, CONTRA-ROTATING PROPELLERS (different from the drawing above), pressurized cockpit, 700km/h estimated (435 mph). With just this information and the J21A/R source, I drew a provisional drawing in my book “Fantômes Fourchus”, published in 1998 and now in English all (“Forked Ghosts”) and free to download in line. At http://cmeunier.chez-alice.fr/Free_EoFG_MV.htm
I will check the Lazer source and maybe draw a correction for my update site http://cmeunier.chez-alice.fr/update_FG.htm
Thanks.

 

[Tophe]

I have not found with Google the Fred Lazer source, alas, and we should decide by ourselves, it seems, if this is true or imagination from the bubble-J21 mention.
As far as I am concerned, I doubt much of the fin shape: this is the J21R jet tail it seems, replacing the old curved fin by a square fin to hold a T-tail (above the jet flame). Why doing that for a piston aircraft?
On my side, I have found another J21B drawing (from my guess), without the normal tail put in my book, but with a more modern fin, whose shape comes from the J29 Tunnan.
I show below the 2 hypothesis. Any opinion would be welcome.

 

[GTX]

OK, one of my sources (Air Enthusiast No. 23 Article by Peter Billing) reports that initially SAAB wanted a DB 605E engine for the J-21B but with the collapse of the 3rd Reich this was not an option. Alternatively, they redesigned to accept the Packard Merlin. This however had a lower speed of rotation of the propeller and thus needed a larger diameter prop with the resulting tailboom interference problems. Preliminary contact was made with Rolls-Royce to investigate changing either the gearing of the Merlin or to fit a 5 bladed prop of smaller diameter. Eventually however, it was decided that the Merlin installation was too costly and complicated for marginal increase in performance. This led to the project proceeding along two lines:

1. The existing DB605B engine but with 100 Octane fuel and some minor modifications (?) was able to get almost the same power as the Merlin; and
2. The J-21R jet version, initially with home-grown STAL turbojet and eventually with the de Havilland Goblin turbojet.

Regards,

Greg

 

[mat]

Some time ago I found and downloaded this drawing. Can't remember from where. Gives an idea of how the beast would have looked like. Though there is something wrong with the tail, which seem to have been twisted.

 

[AeroFranz]

you're right. And the landing gear on the right seems off-axis too. Well, drawing airplanes in perspective is pretty tough

 

[Matej]

My two (or more) cents:

GTX is right in what he wrote, so I only add some new facts: Except the rear part of the central fuselage, almost 90 % of the aircraft parts of the J-21B were the same as in the J-21A. Aircraft had except the new engine and redesigned fuselage also three 20 mm cannons in front of the cockpit. There was a proposal to equip the aircraft with the new targeting system, connected with the radar distance-metering device. The head of the designers was Ragnar Härdmark. The first production machines should enter service in 1947 with the production rate of 12 aircrafts per year. Now comes the better part: there was a mock-up of the front part of the fuselage, including the cockpit, that was approved by Swedish military officials in 1945.

In fact, there were three development lines:

1. (correct) The existing DB605B engine but with 100 Octane fuel...
2. In the same time as the SAAB J-21B, there was also a project of the brand new piston engined fighter SAAB J-27 with the Rolls-Royce Griffon engine and counter-rotating propellers.
3. For the new jet engines SAAB developed during the spring of 1945 two studies: RX-1 and RX-2. The first one was very similar to the the J-21 with the 14,7 kN jet engine and projected speed 740 kph. The second one, named "happy widow" (!) had a two tail beams that were at the end wider than at the beginning, equipped with the V tail, rotated 180 degrees and connected together on the top. Do not forget also R-101 project from the winter 1945 that looked close to Lockheed P-80, but in fact it was pure Swedish design, because it was cancelled before the first P-80 photos and specifications were available.

I have somewhere the 3 view of the original J-21R, designed for the domestic STAL (Svenska Turbinfabrik AB Ljungstrom) engine. I will try to find it.

 

[GTX]

here was also a project of the brand new piston engined fighter SAAB J-27 with the Rolls-Royce Griffon engine

That would be this one - see here for more.

there was a mock-up of the front part of the fuselage, including the cockpit,

I wonder if it still exists or if there are photos?

Regards,

Greg

 

[Justo Miranda]

SAAB 27 info
Post -1

 

[Justo Miranda]

SAAB 27 info
Post -2

 

[GTX]

Ok, you win - your pictures are much better than mine ;D. Now where is the equivalent for the J-21B ?

Regards,

Greg

 

[Tophe]

Now where is the equivalent for the J-21B ?

If the J 21B 3-view is in the next Reichdreams issue, I will subscribe immediately, even years in advance...

 

[AeroFranz]

VERY good info, Justo.
What's the source of all this goodness?

 

[frank]

ISTR the J-27 was based on the Fairey Firefly airframe.

SAAB 27 info
Post -1

 

[Matej]

Found. The first J-21R proposal, optimized for domestic STAL engine. Source: L+K 13-2003 pg. 50/866 No pics of J-21B however.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Now where is the equivalent for the J-21B ?

If the J 21B 3-view is in the next Reichdreams issue, I will subscribe immediately, even years in advance...

OK Unknown N.6 with J 21B next year...

 

[Justo Miranda]

VERY good info, Justo.
What's the source of all this goodness?

-Drawings by Bo Widfeldt ,1966
-Air Enthusiast Thirty Three
-B.C.F.K. Publications by Bernhardt Klein ,1988
-UNKNOWN! N.1 by Miranda & Mercado factory
-http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/saabcanc/

 

[Justo Miranda]

First drawing from Air Enthusiast / Twenty Two

 

[Justo Miranda]

ISTR the J-27 was based on the Fairey Firefly airframe.

SAAB 27 info
Post -1

Youngman worked for Saab at the time

 

[Justo Miranda]

No drawings? ???

In the meantime, SAAB was working on advanced design studies for jet fighter aircraft, beginning with the "RX-1", which was roughly along the lines of the Vampire, and then the "R-101" or "Cigar", which was more along the lines of the American Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star. SAAB engineers had no knowledge of the P-80 when they drew up the R-101 design, and when they found out about the Shooting Star they realized they were several years behind the times. They went back to the drawing board.




The first project to be worked out in detail for a jet-propelled aircraft was the R 101; work had started in the autumn of 1945. It was very similar to the F-80 Shooting Star, of which SAAB had no knowledge at the time. The R 101 project was abandoned when the first illustrations and descriptions of the F-80 were released for publication.




In the autumn of 1945 the first SAAB design on more detailed lines was revealed and was known as the R 101. Its appearance could be likened to the well-known Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star, of which SAAB had no knowledge at that lime. When the design reached the stage when more detailed development was to be proceeded with, illustrations and a description was published of the Shooting Star, which was in series production. It was obvious lhat the entire SAAB design was bordering on obsolescence and there was little prospect of overtaking the lead gained by other manufacturers. As a result the R 101 was abandoned with reluctance, for SAAB were anxious to obtain experience in the design and construction of a jet fighter.

 

[Matej]

Take a look here: http://cmeunier.chez-alice.fr/ There is EVERYTHING!!!


J-21B is here: http://cmeunier.chez-alice.fr/Fg_6.pdf pg. 70

 

[Tophe]

Thanks Matej.
But my guess there is no reference.
(Tophe=cmeunier)

 

[Just call me Ray]

It's like a P-51 and a Spitfire got married and the offspring was adopted by Sweden

 

[Matej]

More SAAB projects in separate topics for reference:

SAAB 32 Lansen: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1400.0/highlight,saab+projects.html
SAAB B3LA (Project 518) J-38: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,145.0/highlight,saab+projects.html
and https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,147.msg298353.html
SAAB JAS-39 Gripen projects: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1161.0/highlight,saab+projects.html
SAAB A-36: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1177.0/highlight,saab+projects.html
SAAB J-51: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3479.0/highlight,saab+projects.html
SAAB LX: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1699.0/highlight,saab+projects.html

I found another two projects to identify. Pictures are attached.

And also I am searching for the other SAAB projects. So far I found almost all, except:
1. SAAB U-plan with the 13xx designation, proposed in the era between 1952 and 1955. It should be variable geometry turborocket submersible Mach 2 fighter. So far, it is the only submersible plane, proposed in Europe (except Soviet union/Russia). It is my high priority request.

2.SAAB 1536 – VTOL Viggen

 

[Jemiba]

Is it just me, or is the second aircraft really very, VERY similar to
the SO.4060M ?