Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers

[Creative]

I don't know why the Russian Navy would want to buy a Mistral when Project 11780 there looks like a sound design ??? Oh and thanks for the images.

 

[T-50]

I want to know the current status of the next generation of Russian carrier,are they already building it?
Is it nuclear or conventionally powered?
I hope somone has some info

 

[JohnR]

Couple of points:

What is the missile launcher in the A and C positions on the first few images, looks kind of like a Roland style launcher with the missile being transferred to the launcher horizontally?

Given that in terms of aircraft carrier ops the Russians have the US carriers to look at - from a distance - why do they fit their aircraft carrier designs with such large islands? Looking at the Kutzenov & Varyag they have a fantastically design sleek hull, and then this huge ugly lump of an island, what is in that island surely it can't just be because of the electronics?

The "Ivan Tarawa" looks to have evolved from the Kiev class? Are there any stats on her? Also it looks more like she has a stern ramp; ro-ro style, rather than a docking well? I have to agree with Creative why order the Mistral when they have a baseline design - particularly as the Mistrals are one of the unattractive ships ever built - it looks to me like a large chunk missing from ahead of the island.

I just also want it noted that I do like the aesthetic qualities of most Russian/Soviet warships particularly hull designs, sometimes the upperworks get a little out of hand - as with the carriers.

 

[gollevainen]

What is the missile launcher in the A and C positions on the first few images, looks kind of like a Roland style launcher with the missile being transferred to the launcher horizontally?

It's a prototype launcher for M-11 SAM system (SA-N-3 Goblet)

 

[Triton]

The "Ivan Tarawa" looks to have evolved from the Kiev class? Are there any stats on her?

Specifications are provided earlier in this topic:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1948.msg17615.html#msg17615

 

[Triton]

The reason the Russians want to buy a Mistral is simple. Russian naval shipbuilding and design is still stuck in the 1970s/80s. It is decades behind what European yards are capable of in terms of cost effectiveness and design capacity. The hope is that procuring a Mistral they can also buy the associated technology and feed it into the carrier programme. Also remember that no Russian yard has ever built and aircraft carrier, they were all previously built in the Ukraine.

Naval Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsk has been quoted as saying "We will not only buy the helicopter-carrier but also the technology for building it."

General Nikolai Makarov said Russia wanted to forge a deal with France on joint production of at least four or five ships of the same class.

So it does sound like they want France's help in modernizing Russia's shipbuilding industry.

Source:
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4272788

 

[GTX]

Hi folks,

Does anyone know what would have been the planned aircraft compliment (types not numbers) of the Orel class (Project 1160) CVN(s)? I assume MiG-23Ks but what else?

Regards,

Greg

 

[gollevainen]

Well there is three references available of that design sofar. A linedrawing and two models. The Linedrawing clearly indicates that Su-27K is the main bulk of the carriers airfleet and only other visible aircraft type is the Yak-44 AEW plane. Of the two models which are slightly different than the line drawing (and varies slightly between themselves) one shows Su-27K and another shows MiG-23K. No other aicraft types are visible in the pics of the models.

 

[lancer21]

Proposed full-carrier conversion of Baku later renamed Admiral Gorshkov.

Do you know by any chance what type of aircraft was suposed to be the twin turboprop, the silhouette of the fighter looks like a Yak-41, but the turboprop seems to have no rotodome, and a single fin ( so not a Yak-44...i think )
I know its only a rough general draw, but since the drawing is numbered , maby the original source have a designation for that a/c ?

Thanks!

 

[airman]

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/professional-defense-analysis/soviet-carrier-development-4392/

 

[borovik]

Sources:
A.Sokolov "Alternative - unbuilt ships Rossiyskogo and the Soviet navy. "
"The development of aircraft carriers in the USSR"
"Citadel"1998 № 3
"Aviation and cosmonautic" 2008 № 9

Projects V. Levkov's - aircraft carrier on an air cushion (1935) and R. Alekseev's - hydrofoil (1949) should be considered only as a concept, an innovative for those years.

 

[airman]

thanks borovick!

 

[Howedar]

"TsKB-17" is certainly out there...

Any guess as to the large VLS-like drums aft? Sure look like a proto-SA-N-6, but there's no obvious associated director. Especially strange considering the SA-N-3 right next to it.

 

[TomS]

My guess would be that those are ballistic missile launch tubes. This was firmly in Khrushchev's "missiles above all else" phase, after all.

PS: TsKB-17 was the name of the design bureau, not the specific design.

 

[airman]

Sources:
A.Sokolov "Alternative - unbuilt ships Rossiyskogo and the Soviet navy. "
"The development of aircraft carriers in the USSR"
"Citadel"1998 № 3
"Aviation and cosmonautic" 2008 № 9

i suppose all only in russian language !!!

 

[Howedar]

My guess would be that those are ballistic missile launch tubes. This was firmly in Khrushchev's "missiles above all else" phase, after all.

PS: TsKB-17 was the name of the design bureau, not the specific design.

Are the tubes deep enough for that?

(hence quotes around it; I assumed the 1961 was year instead of project number, and there was no other obvious name.)

 

[borovik]

TsKB-17 in 1961, a technical project of the Impact of the ship for the Northern (СФ) and Pacific (ТОФ) fleets. The project was planned for 1965.
Displacement of the ship was 11 000 tons.
Cruising speed 34 knots.

"Any guess as to the large VLS-like drums aft?"

This is six missiles P-100 (range 2000km)
In addition 18 cruise missiles P-7 (range 900-1000km)
... and 4-6 planes.
P-100 in the mine.
from the "Encyclopedia of Russian missiles" A.Shirokorad

 

[airman]

To Be or Not To Be: The Development of Soviet Deck Aviation by Vadim Kolnogorov, of the Central Naval Museum in St. Petersburg, is a very interesting history of Soviet Navy aircraft carriers.
http://yurizhukov.com/files/CWaS_339-359_soviet_naval_aviation.pdf

Gone ! :-(

 

[airman]

google books give us help

http://books.google.it/books?id=xxRlzgYz2eoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=carrier+Mikhail+Frunze&source=gbs_similarbooks_s&cad=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[airman]

http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/publicaciones-zona-militar/14801-los-proyectos-de-portaaviones-sovieticos.html

 

[Triton]

Project 1123 Kondor concept, Moskva-class helicopter carrier, circa 1958.

Source:
http://alternathistory.org.ua/evolyutsiya-kontseptsii-scs-sea-control-ship-korablei-kontrolya-morya?quicktabs_1=1

 

[Grey Havoc]

With regards as to the Mistral deal, the current Medvedev v Putin power struggle may have a major affect on it's chances for success. Given that Medvedev seems to be more enthusiastic for the plan than Putin, a Putin victory could see any hope for Russian Mistrals sent to the scrapyard, so to speak.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Images of another Project 1123 "Kondor" concept model.
http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/NPKB/1123/

The models of the various Kondor concepts are very interesting, especially the catamaran based design. Might it have been a bit more seaworthy than the Moskvas proved to be? Although it does look somewhat top heavy.

 

[Triton]

Photographs of Ul'yanovsk under construction at Nikolayev South Shipyard (now Black Sea Shipyard).

Source:
http://forums.airbase.ru/2006/11/t52349,11--razvitie-avianesuschikh-korablej-rossii-sssr.html

 

[Triton]

Project 1143.7 Ul'yanovsk

Source:
http://forums.airbase.ru/2006/11/t52349,11--razvitie-avianesuschikh-korablej-rossii-sssr.html
http://forums.airbase.ru/2006/11/t52349,15--razvitie-avianesuschikh-korablej-rossii-sssr.html

 

[Triton]

Project 11435 circa 1979 which became Admiral Kuznetsov (formerly Riga, Leonid Brezhnev, and Tbilisi).

Source:
http://forums.airbase.ru/2006/11/t52349,17--razvitie-avianesuschikh-korablej-rossii-sssr.html

 

[Grey Havoc]

The Ul'yanovsk deck spotting diagram was very interesting.

 

[blackstar]

The Ul'yanovsk deck spotting diagram was very interesting.

I'm interested in the AWACS. Did the Soviets ever start development of a small AWACS system that could fit on a carrier?

I think it's interesting to speculate about the Soviet Navy getting a carrier capability. Although any country can buy/build a carrier, it takes a long time to develop the procedures, equipment and tactics to operate one effectively.

 

[TomS]

I'm interested in the AWACS. Did the Soviets ever start development of a small AWACS system that could fit on a carrier?

Yak-44 got as far as a mock-up in 1991. I assume that this drawing shows that aircraft, which resembled an E-2, only somewhat larger.

 

[robunos]

Looking at the posted drawing, the AWACS aircraft appears to be
designated Yak-144.......


cheers,
Robin.

 

[blackstar]

Got it. Here are some pics of the Yak-44.

 

[blackstar]

And a couple more images of the Yak-44.

 

[Triton]

We already have an existing topic devoted to the Yakolev Yak-44E at:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2290.msg19306.html#msg19306

 

[Grey Havoc]

Old news, but according to Defense Industry Daily and other sources, the Russian Mistrals will be referred to as the Vladivostok Class.

 

[Grey Havoc]

I've just came across an old 1987 Japanese article which claims a connection between the 'Toshiba affair' and the 'Kremlin' (Ulyanovsk/Ul'yanovsk) program. I'm doubtful myself, but here's a link to it (pages 60-80[pdf pg 63-83]). Warning: There are a number of extended digressions!

 

[flateric]

Future Russian aircraft carrier

Krylov Shipbuilding Research
Institute design showcased at current IMDS 2013 in St.Petersburg. Turbine powered CATOBAR, 80,0000 ton displacement.
Yes, those are T-50K along with MiG-29K on the flight desk.

 

[Jemiba]

Re: Future Russian aircraft carrier

It still seem to have a ski-jump at the bow ? So the catapult only on the angled part of the
flight deck, for heavier laden or bigger aircraft (AEW/COD) maybe ?
And with that layout of the island, they risk the reproval of "copying the HMS Queen Elisabeth" !

 

[Grey Havoc]

From last November: Ulyanovsk Redux (Russian Defense Policy blog)

 

[Tzoli]

Let me give you guys all the projects I know regarding the Soviet Carriers:

Project 66AV or 68AV? (1953): Carrier design based on Project 66 heavy cruiser or Sverdlov class light cruiser?
Project 69AV (1945): Kronshtadt class battlecruiser conversion into carrier
Project 71A (1936): 13,000-ton Light Carrier Design
Project 71B (1937): 22,000-ton Fleet Carrier Design
Project 72 (1942): 37,000-ton Fleet Carrier Design
Project 85 (1954): 30,500-ton light carrier design
Project 1020.0 (1980): 30,000-ton Helicopter carrier design
Project 1058.1 (1937): 74,000-ton battlecarrier design (Gibs & Cox project)
Project 1123 (1962): Moskva class helicopter carrier
Project 1123.3 (1968): Modernized Moskva class helicopter carrier design
Project 1143.0 (1970): Kiev class carrier
Project 1143.2 (1972): Modified Kiev class carrier Minsk
Project 1143.3 (1975): Improved Kiev class carrier Novorossiysk
Project 1143.4 (1978): Kiev Mod class carrier Baku
Project 1143.5 (1982): Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier
Project 1143.5M (???): Modernized Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier design
Project 1143.6 (1985): Modified Admiral Kuznetsov class carrier
Project 1143.7 (1988): Ulyanovsk class nuclear-powered carrier
Project 1153 (1969): 70,000-ton Nuclear powered carrier design
Project 1160 (1972): 80,000-ton Nuclear powered carrier design
Project 1178 (1990): 44,000-ton Helicopter carrier design

 

[stashandr]

Project 1153 is 1977 year design.

You forget light aircraft carrier (1968) - nuclear or conventionally powered, 50000 t, 280x60 m, 38 aircrafts (attached).