Russian 6th Generation Fighter News

bobbymike

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Moscow is designing its sixth-generation airframe to be capable of hypersonic speeds. “It will be hypersonic at several Mach, single-seat, invisible to the enemy, super-maneuverable, multifunctional and made of composite materials,” Mikhailov said. “The aircraft will have a cockpit, but will be able to fly with both a pilot and without a pilot. That is, it will combine a manned and unmanned variant.”

Firefox?
 
That's' Best Of SPF right there.
 
Of course this is all propaganda since the Russians aren't stupid when it comes to aeronautics. They know as well as we do that very fast and stealthy don't mix. They better than everybody except maybe the Chinese that when you have a fast aircraft it can have all the RCS reduction imaginable(Blackbird Family is a good example) and still show up on radar cause your hot exhaust shows up on Radar. So if you want to go double that speed, that exhaust plume is gonna be even bigger.
 
A heat source will not show up on radar, only on heat (infra red) sensors. Rather like a radar guided missile cannot be used in the same manner, you need a sidewinder infra red style.
 
So they are sensitive enough to detect the different mass of the hot air, blimey, some sensitivity there. Thanks for the lesson, learned something new today.
 
Well it's not the difference of mass... It would be the difference in pressure created by heat... But that is not what the radars pick up. The gas gets heated up to such extreme temperatures and then it starts releasing it's energy (from heat) in the form of electromagnetic radiation in the radar frequency domain.
 
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
No, the exhaust plume itself can be detectable on radar when its very hot, which it will be for a hypersonic vehicle. This was seen on the SR-71.

There are even a few pics out there of a full scale Blackbird model on a pole for RCS testing and the model has exhaust plumes on it.
 
Also as far as I can tell from my research through the archives at the museum where i work and picking the brains of my co-workers Kelly Johnson was never able to figure out how to make those exhaust plumes invisible to radar and from the aeronautical engineers who I work with also don't think that it is possible with today's tech.
 
M=5 - 10

236140_1000.jpg
 
GOSNIIAS guru Fedosov opinion on AI and 6G
 
A 6th gen Russian fighter is not so urgent especially from MiG which is a shell of the past. The Su-57M is already 5.5 gen in many ways with new sensors and much more power and efficient engines, a few more upgrades and it can challenge even what America wants with the NGAD to replace the F-22, which if you look at requirements look much like Su-57M with long range and broadband sensors.
 
A 6th gen Russian fighter is not so urgent especially from MiG which is a shell of the past. The Su-57M is already 5.5 gen in many ways with new sensors and much more power and efficient engines, a few more upgrades and it can challenge even what America wants with the NGAD to replace the F-22, which if you look at requirements look much like Su-57M with long range and broadband sensors.
How do you define 5.5??
 
Also as far as I can tell from my research through the archives at the museum where i work and picking the brains of my co-workers Kelly Johnson was never able to figure out how to make those exhaust plumes invisible to radar and from the aeronautical engineers who I work with also don't think that it is possible with today's tech.
The solution to pollution is dilution …. er …. you would need to mix huge amounts of cool ambient air into the exhaust plume to cool it enough that it will not show on IR or radar sensors.
 
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A 6th gen Russian fighter is not so urgent especially from MiG which is a shell of the past. The Su-57M is already 5.5 gen in many ways with new sensors and much more power and efficient engines, a few more upgrades and it can challenge even what America wants with the NGAD to replace the F-22, which if you look at requirements look much like Su-57M with long range and broadband sensors.
This is from the topic "I haven't seen the film, but I condemn it" Where does this statement about 5.5 come from? Do you have drawings or calculated data?
 
Also as far as I can tell from my research through the archives at the museum where i work and picking the brains of my co-workers Kelly Johnson was never able to figure out how to make those exhaust plumes invisible to radar and from the aeronautical engineers who I work with also don't think that it is possible with today's tech.
Weren't there some projects regarding the use of various additives to the fuel, such as caesium? Did those not work as well as was hoped?
 
The solution to pollution is dilution …. er …. you would need to mix in huge amounts of cool ambient air into the exhaust plume to cool it enough that it will not show on IR or radar sensors.
So that makes this an after... cooler? Good lord that tastes bad to say.
 
How do you define 5.5??
How does one define gen 6? What could gen 6 do, that gen5 couldn't do out of the box or with small upgrade?
If gen 4->5 is clearly cut, by virtue of VLO, than what is gen6?
 
Adaptive engines, powerplant integrated generators for directed energy weapons/EW, advanced aerodynamics (tailless, new aerodynamic effectors, fluidic controls), VLO, advanced thermal management, part of SoS.
None of this may be excerpt last one, can be achieved with 'small upgrade'.
 
How does one define gen 6? What could gen 6 do, that gen5 couldn't do out of the box or with small upgrade?
If gen 4->5 is clearly cut, by virtue of VLO, than what is gen6?
Answering a question with a question when you posted a claim in the first place is not helpful.
 
How do you define 5.5??
It’s clear Su-57M is the baseline for 5.5 gen since it combines 5th fighter with 6th gen technology. New Stage 2 AL-51F-1 engines with stealthy nozzles for VLO, wide bandwidth sensors from X band to L band to IR to UV, AI technology to team with S-70 Okhotnik, advanced aerodynamics with tiny vertical tails for low drag and stealth, DIRCM which is pretty much direct energy protection against missile seakers.
 
Also as far as I can tell from my research through the archives at the museum where i work and picking the brains of my co-workers Kelly Johnson was never able to figure out how to make those exhaust plumes invisible to radar and from the aeronautical engineers who I work with also don't think that it is possible with today's tech.
The radar return of the A-12/SR-71exhaust was partially mitigated by adding cesium to the fuel to create an ionization cloud. Here are some details of the additive and its effects:
cesium fuel additive
 
It’s clear Su-57M is the baseline for 5.5 gen since it combines 5th fighter with 6th gen technology. New Stage 2 AL-51F-1 engines with stealthy nozzles for VLO, wide bandwidth sensors from X band to L band to IR to UV, AI technology to team with S-70 Okhotnik, advanced aerodynamics with tiny vertical tails for low drag and stealth, DIRCM which is pretty much direct energy protection against missile seakers.
1) Is AL-51F-1 adaptive cycle engine? Are the stealth features on the nozzle and engine blades, cooling devices significantly better than f-22 to be considered 5.5 gen? If so what are they?

2) wide bandwidth sensors are not the whole equation of current trend of advancing above and beyond 5th gen. It's wide range EMBEDDED sensors to provide 360 degree coverage in a STEALTHY manner. Can you elaborate how the su-57m is a significant step above f-22 and f-35 in this trend and how its onboard processor can fuse all these information in a way significantly better than f-22 or f-35?

3) tiny vertical tails do not translate automatically to smaller RCS than larger tails. In some instances, larger surface is better in RCS management. No tail surfaces - yes. but just tiny - no.
 
2) wide bandwidth sensors are not the whole equation of current trend of advancing above and beyond 5th gen. It's wide range EMBEDDED sensors to provide 360 degree coverage in a STEALTHY manner. Can you elaborate how the su-57m is a significant step above f-22 and f-35 in this trend and how its onboard processor can fuse all these information in a way significantly better than f-22 or f-35?

I'll never forgive LockMart for popularizing this stupid PowerPoint-style of thinking, what does "embedded" mean in this context? That the aircraft carries the sensors in its airframe? 360 degree coverage in a stealthy manner? Like an IRST and DAS that the F-22 wasn't installed with?

I'm not going to get into this pissing contest of 5th vs 5.5 gen, 5++++++ gen, etc, but I hope you can realize Sukhoi's engineers aren't morons who stuffed an IRST, DAS, DIIRCM, 3 radars in the nose, and another 2 in the leading edges and then just not give a damn about sensor fusion.

Reality today is that of all the gen 5 aircraft flying today, the one with the most sensors onboard, and therefor data to fuse, is the Su-57. You can get into AWACs, offboard sensors all you want, but that isn't exclusive to the F-22/35 either.
 
I'll never forgive LockMart for popularizing this stupid PowerPoint-style of thinking, what does "embedded" mean in this context? That the aircraft carries the sensors in its airframe? 360 degree coverage in a stealthy manner? Like an IRST and DAS that the F-22 wasn't installed with?

I'm not going to get into this pissing contest of 5th vs 5.5 gen, 5++++++ gen, etc, but I hope you can realize Sukhoi's engineers aren't morons who stuffed an IRST, DAS, DIIRCM, 3 radars in the nose, and another 2 in the leading edges and then just not give a damn about sensor fusion.

Reality today is that of all the gen 5 aircraft flying today, the one with the most sensors onboard, and therefor data to fuse, is the Su-57. You can get into AWACs, offboard sensors all you want, but that isn't exclusive to the F-22/35 either.
1) If your mind only comes up with IRST and DAS when "embedded sensors" are mentioned, then obviously you need to do more research.

2) if you fail to comprehend that I never once made a statement or implied that su-57 does not pocess sensor fusion, then perhaps slower reading and even slower impulse to respond is much required.

3) sensor fusion isn't a black and white issue yes it has or no it doesn't. The advancement of onboard computer(s) both in term of its AI and raw processing power cannot be determined simply by the number of sensors an aircraft carries. If that's the case block 4 f-35 and previous versions would have the same level of sensor fusion since block 4 doesn't add any additional sensor right?
 
1) If your mind only comes up with IRST and DAS when "embedded sensors" are mentioned, then obviously you need to do more research.
If your mind can't process the question, just say so. This is your original passage:

It's wide range EMBEDDED sensors to provide 360 degree coverage in a STEALTHY manner. Can you elaborate how the su-57m is a significant step above f-22 and f-35 in this trend and how its onboard processor can fuse all these information in a way significantly better than f-22 or f-35?

In response to:

It’s clear Su-57M is the baseline for 5.5 gen since it combines 5th fighter with 6th gen technology. New Stage 2 AL-51F-1 engines with stealthy nozzles for VLO, wide bandwidth sensors from X band to L band to IR to UV, AI technology to team with S-70 Okhotnik, advanced aerodynamics with tiny vertical tails for low drag and stealth, DIRCM which is pretty much direct energy protection against missile seakers.
You wanted to know how the Su-57(M) is a significant step above, I mentioned briefly IRST/DAS for the F-22, the comment on embedded sensors was a dig on LockMart. I can go further, installation of cheek radars and leading edge radars(there's your embedded sensor, since you like them so much).

If people want to talk about conformal radar arrays, then say so, strain gauge sensors in the load-bearing structures, then say so, new sensor arrays that can operate in new bands simultaneously, then say so. I've gotten tired of people regurgitating LinkedIn-style marketing speeches and buzzwords.

2) if you fail to comprehend that I never once made a statement or implied that su-57 does not pocess sensor fusion, then perhaps slower reading and even slower impulse to respond is much required.

You're failing to understand that I never implied that you did, but your question over how the Su-57(M) differed in comparison to the F-22/35 implied that they're the same, even though the person you responded to listed their reasons for believing so. Did you read what he wrote?

He believed that the Su-57M was a closer aircraft to being 5.5 gen/6th gen, than the competition, I personally, as I've stated before, highly dislike the 5.5 gen, 6th gen terminology, literally no reason to use it as nobody agrees on it's definition, it was easy stating this with going from the 4th gen to the 5th, but now not so much. But it is obvious to a neutral observer with a decent reading of the three aircraft, that when it comes to sources of onboard data(sensors), the Su-57 is markedly different from all other fifth gens. Yes, you can argue that the F-22 had cheek radars and IRST planned, but it never came to fruition, and no other 5th gen has onboard DIIRCM with scanning capabilities.

3) sensor fusion isn't a black and white issue yes it has or no it doesn't. The advancement of onboard computer(s) both in term of its AI and raw processing power cannot be determined simply by the number of sensors an aircraft carries. If that's the case block 4 f-35 and previous versions would have the same level of sensor fusion since block 4 doesn't add any additional sensor right

I agree, it's not a black and white, but it's quite logical to assume that an aircraft that carries 3 X-band radars compared to 1, is likely going to be designed both in hardware and software to a higher specification for the higher information load. Not to mention all the other sensors onboard the Su-57.

Sensor fusion isn't some magical improvement to an aircraft's awareness, If I am in an F-35 using active radar because the weather is too cloudy for my EODAS or chin IRST to see another aircraft that isn't emitting for my passive emitters to pick up, and it's off to my left or right outside of the nose APG radar coverage, then I could have every CPU/GPU on the planet hooked up to my aircraft running the most advanced sensor fusion, AI, algorithms ever dreamt of, I will not see that aircraft on the tactical display.

And your point about block 4 F-35s compared to the previous blocks would carry weight if the previous blocks weren't LRIP versions, purposely made to get the F-35 into service faster to make up for delays. Regardless, you can never add cheek arrays or any other significant sensor to add data streams to your fusion software if the aircraft wasn't designed for it in the first place, but adding to it's processing capabilities by swapping the computing units for more advanced ones, like the F-35s modular LRUs, is a standard process.
 
You wanted to know how the Su-57(M) is a significant step above, I mentioned briefly IRST/DAS for the F-22, the comment on embedded sensors was a dig on LockMart. I can go further, installation of cheek radars and leading edge radars(there's your embedded sensor, since you like them so much).

If people want to talk about conformal radar arrays, then say so, strain gauge sensors in the load-bearing structures, then say so, new sensor arrays that can operate in new bands simultaneously, then say so. I've gotten tired of people regurgitating LinkedIn-style marketing speeches and buzzwords.
Lol. Let's get 1 thing out of the way first. Can you tell me what sensors that are currently embedded in, say, just the f-22?
 
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