Russia fires warning shots at British destroyer in the Black Sea

[Orionblamblam]

The feminist expression "Willy waving" comes to mind.

Well, there is a practical purpose to it. When you've got one country invading and annexing another county's territory, other nations can either accept it or refute it. If the Chinese claim the entirely of the South China Sea, or France claims all of the English Channel, or Australia claims the Baltic... do you avoid those waters? Or do you go sailing on through?

 

[sferrin]

Either stand up or get walked on. There is no door #3.

 

[TR1]

The feminist expression "Willy waving" comes to mind.

Well, there is a practical purpose to it. When you've got one country invading and annexing another county's territory, other nations can either accept it or refute it. If the Chinese claim the entirely of the South China Sea, or France claims all of the English Channel, or Australia claims the Baltic... do you avoid those waters? Or do you go sailing on through?

Good thing the UK has no record of invading and occupying other nations along with its daddy in the past few decades!

Also is some water off Crimea really equivalent to the English Channel?

 

[DWG]

AIS is an open civilian system that was never designed to be secure, it was designed to be easily implemented and accessible. Compared to GPS spoofing that the Russians are capable of as well, this was an simple hack.

I wouldn't even call it a hack, they just sent out false data without any need to get into other people's systems.

 

[zen]

Why send a Coastguard ship with just a 30mm CIWS and fly a Su-24 close?
Where are the Su-35s and other Flanker derivatives?

I read talk of 20 aircraft......not actually enough to empty a full magazine of Sea Viper.

Why fire the 30mm safely off angle away from the Type 45, when it must be over 4nm away at that point? And clearly long past the nearest point of transit....

 

[Orionblamblam]

Also is some water off Crimea really equivalent to the English Channel?

To the Ukrainians, it probably is. Crimea is their land after all.

 

[tequilashooter]

I guess users are purposely getting politics involved just to go kill this thread already. Fine lets also go say Constantinople is Greece, Kosovo is Serbia and Jerusalem belongs to Palestine next.

 

[sferrin]

I guess users are purposely getting politics involved just to go kill this thread already. Fine lets also go say Constantinople is Greece, Kosovo is Serbia and Jerusalem belongs to Palestine next.

Politics is practically in the title of the thread.

 

[TR1]

Also is some water off Crimea really equivalent to the English Channel?

To the Ukrainians, it probably is. Crimea is their land after all.

Was theirs, just like it was Russian before that, and is now again.

 

[tequilashooter]

I guess users are purposely getting politics involved just to go kill this thread already. Fine lets also go say Constantinople is Greece, Kosovo is Serbia and Jerusalem belongs to Palestine next.

Politics is practically in the title of the thread.

the subject could go on just talking about the destroyer, aircrafts or missiles being launched, Russian navy attacking next time as a possibility, etc, not about what Crimea, Constantinople, Jerusalem, kosovo belong to, or talking about political assassinations, might as well go to places like 4chan /pol/ or something for that.

 

[Orionblamblam]

To the Ukrainians, it probably is. Crimea is their land after all.

Was theirs, just like it was Russian before that, and is now again.

Well... not "just like." The Russians gave Crimea to Ukraine of their own free will, peacefully. Then the Russians stole it back. One of these is not like the other.

In any event, the Brits (and the United Nations) do not recognize Crimea as being Russian. They recognize it as being Ukrainian. So sailing around Crimean waters if they have permission to sail around in Ukrainian waters is perfectly cromulent. Russians taking potshots at British ships and threatening to board them in Ukrainian water would be tantamount to piracy, IMO.

 

[tequilashooter]

Well they warned another next time will be actual fired missiles or bombs on their ships since they have been warned once, maybe they can get other NATO countries to go troll them so they can get their 1st warning.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Well they warned another next time will be actual fired missiles or bombs on their ships since they have been warned once, maybe they can get other NATO countries to go troll them so they can get their 1st warning.

What would a Russian military vessel in international waters do if it was "warned" by, say, Somali pirates?

 

[tequilashooter]

What would a Russian military vessel in international waters do if it was "warned" by, say, Somali pirates?

I don't think this is really a comparison when one claims I am in international waters or denying the incident ever occurred and the other says your in my territory. If that vessel is in international waters but becomes threatened that is retaliation, but if that Vessel is around Somalian territory and their warning is not taken I guess they will fight back but based on their capabilities not achieve much. I am confused if this situation is even comparable to what is happening above?

My more amusing but yet accurate comparison is a Yasen class sub being spotted within 12 nautical miles from Israel, where Israel fires warning shots, and Russia states, "no I am in Palestinian territory."

 

[Rhinocrates]

And for anyone who isn't aware of what AIS is, think transponders for ships. AIS broadcasts position and ID of any fitted ships (civilian ships must broadcast, warships can turn it off). And like any other transponder it can be spoofed by reporting false data, or in this case apparently by sending false data to the sites that display AIS data on the web.

As AIS is an international maritime safety system, the problems of Russia messing with it are a bit more serious than they look on the surface.

A recent article on Iranian use of spoofing, for a variety of reasons:

Why vessels passing near Iran may have trouble staying on course

Shipowners suspect their satnav systems are being “spoofed”

www.economist.com

You may have trouble with the paywall and need to register. I have found though that with some online publications, if you reload the page and quickly stop it before it completes, you can get around that. It may take a few tries.

 

[TR1]

To the Ukrainians, it probably is. Crimea is their land after all.

Was theirs, just like it was Russian before that, and is now again.

Well... not "just like." The Russians gave Crimea to Ukraine of their own free will, peacefully. Then the Russians stole it back. One of these is not like the other.

In any event, the Brits (and the United Nations) do not recognize Crimea as being Russian. They recognize it as being Ukrainian. So sailing around Crimean waters if they have permission to sail around in Ukrainian waters is perfectly cromulent. Russians taking potshots at British ships and threatening to board them in Ukrainian water would be tantamount to piracy, IMO.

Not really. Khruschev randomly gave Ukraine Crimea- certainly Russia nor the Russian local population had any say in it.

They tried to leave again in the 90s repeatedly, but their attempts fell on deaf ears in Moscow and Kiev.

It certainly was opportunistic theft by the Russian government, but as far as most locals are concerned, it was a historic oddity being righted.

De facto it is Russian, eventually will become de jure as well, some parties will just have to deal with it.

NATO airplanes shoot down Syrian aircraft over Syria, committing essentially aerial piracy. Somehow that it is ok with the same parties bravely defending "Ukrainian" sovereignty. Legality has its limits.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I am confused if this situation is even comparable to what is happening above?

Russia threatened a British vessel that was legally in Ukrainian waters. Attacking and boarding the vessel would be piracy under accepted international law, unless russia goes ahead and declares war.

My more amusing but yet accurate comparison is a Yasen class sub being spotted within 12 nautical miles from Israel, where Israel fires warning shots, and Russia states, "no I am in Palestinian territory."

There is no nation of Palestine, just some territory that Jordan abandoned. It would be interesting, though, if Israel behaved as Russia claims to want to and boards and seizes the Yasen. I'm sure Israel could find a use for the sub and its cruise missiles.

 

[Orionblamblam]

NATO airplanes shoot down Syrian aircraft over Syria, committing essentially aerial piracy. Somehow that it is ok with the same parties bravely defending "Ukrainian" sovereignty.

Well, beyond everything else, Ukraine is a reasonable nation and a valid entrant into NATO; Syria is a dictatorship.

 

[tequilashooter]

Russia threatened a British vessel that was legally in Ukrainian waters. Attacking and boarding the vessel would be piracy under accepted international law, unless russia goes ahead and declares war.

So in territorial waters? Rather if Crimea is recognized as Ukraine or Russia, they are free to come again if they want I suppose, I do not know what they tried to prove with this course of action now than not before. I do not know why the UK denied the incident ever occurred when their reporter was on board and even footage of their officer talking to the Russians directly stating Crimean waters as Ukrainian territory, problem is where are the Ukrainians or their military in Crimea? If they do perhaps pull the stunt again and their ship sinks i don't really think NATO will support their jackass endeavor to fight for them like Turkey thinks NATO will back them if they got into a conflict with the Russians in Syria

There is no nation of Palestine, just some territory that Jordan abandoned. It would be interesting, though, if Israel behaved as Russia claims to want to and boards and seizes the Yasen. I'm sure Israel could find a use for the sub and its cruise missiles.

Well the Palestinians might object to this but its all a matter of opinion now is it? NATO can state Crimea is Ukraine and Russia can state Crimea is Russia buts that's all there is. Wonder how they can cease a sub send salvos of scramjets at them or do they fire warning shots as their 1st protocol like what the Russian coast guard did?

 

[Orionblamblam]

Well the Palestinians might object to this but its all a matter of opinion now is it?

And settled international law.

 

[Antonio]

OMG, this thread is going nowhere good.

Just filling the forum with clutter, a mess of keywords wrecking the search engine into futulity and non sense. This we're loosing the forum as an encyclopedia. Please, remeber there's no value turning this forum in another political confrontation arena. Internet is full of it and we're not the best choice.

 

[Antonio]

Since 2006, some members had tryed to tidy up the threads. I feel gratitude for them because someone put great effort on the task. The most optimization, the better experience for researchers.

Please think about it before clutter posting. Resistance is futile, but it makes a difference.

Thread locked

(But my vote is for deletion)