Rolling Airframe Missile launcher concepts

[TomS]

Thread for unbuilt RAM launcher concepts (aside from the standard Mk 49 and SeaRAM launchers)

This morning, I reminded myself of an unusual concept to mount Rolling Airframe Missile launchers on the sides of a Mark 45 gun turret. The idea was to use the gun drives and gun fire control to point the missile launchers in the direction of the threat. They also proposed to use the launchers for other payloads, including decoys, which has been a recurring theme for the RAM launcher.

The original patent is by some Navy personnel, but I'm fairly certain this showed up as commercial offering (at least briefly). The patent refers to this as Sideshooter, and I think that was the commercial name as well, but nothing is coming up in my searches.

Friedman mentions this idea very briefly in his World Naval Weapon Systems (4th and 5th editions). He also mentions with several other concepts:

• a proposal to mount RAM tubes on the Contraves Sea Shield CIWS (Sea Shield was like the Sea Zenith quad 25mm CIWS, but deck-mounted and without Sea Zenith's angled turret base)
• a Hughes proposal for a dedicated vertical RAM launcher for later LHDs (not ExLS)
• a proposal to launch RAM from the Mk 13 launcher (I think the idea was a twin-pack in place of a single Standard)

If anyone has any info on any of these (or other RAM launchers), it would be appreciated.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Attachment link is glitched.

 

[TomS]

Fixed?

 

[Grey Havoc]

Yes, thanks.

 

[0t4n1z3r2020]

That gun turret with the side-mounted RAM Pods is cool as hell.

 

[TomS]

Yes, thanks.

Turns out if you write a draft and let it sit for a day or two before posting, the attachments fail.

 

[TomS]

Found another one. The RAM Alternate Launching System, a lightweight 10-round launcher (2x5-round pods on a pedestal) developed by Per Udsen in Denmark. Reportedly weighed 2.96 tons in the launcher plus 766 kg below decks, compared to 5.2 tons and 936 kg below decks for the Mk 49. (Source here)

The main proposed application of RALS that I remember was on the Newport News FF-21 -- I've grabbed a poor quality snip out of the FF-21 illustration on our FF-21 thread: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/ff-21-frigate-design-from-newport-news-and-ingalls.2253/




Same source confirms my recollection about the Mk 13 adaptor -- two RAM on a disposable strongback that would be ejected from the launcher after firing the missiles.

 

[TomS]

Also forgot to mention the idea of stuffing 5 RAM each into 2 of the 8 cells on the Mk29 NATO Sea Sparrow launcher. I think that one died because it was too heavy for the Mk29's drive motors.

 

[PMN1]

I vaguely remember seeing something that said the gun mounting couldn't rotate fast enough to be an effective launcher.

 

[TomS]

I vaguely remember seeing something that said the gun mounting couldn't rotate fast enough to be an effective launcher.

Ditto. Adding another several tons to the Mk 45 wasn't going to be easy on the elevation and train motors. You'd probably have to reengineer the whole turret. Then you get to worry about what overpressure and shock from the gun firing would look like on the missile tubes.

 

[TomS]

Also forgot to mention the idea of stuffing 5 RAM each into 2 of the 8 cells on the Mk29 NATO Sea Sparrow launcher. I think that one died because it was too heavy for the Mk29's drive motors.

From a 1981 Johns Hopkins APL Technical Digest Article:

Weapon System Configurations-At the present time, the RAM Missile is planned to be deployed in two weapon system configurations. The first uses the present NATO SEASPARROW launcher (Mk 132) in which two of the eight SEASPARROW's are replaced by two guide inserts containing five RAM rounds each (Fig. 2). Modifications to the SEASPARROW software, launcher, and firing officer's console will be made to accommodate the RAM Weapon System. The semi active guidance NATO SEASPARROW has a longer range than RAM Missiles and can engage both radiating and nonradiating threats, while the RAM Missile measurably increases firepower at shorter range against radiating threats. Computer-assisted weapon employment doctrines are being developed to provide optimum use of these weapons in varying threat situations.

 

[timmymagic]

Lockheed Martin ExLS launcher with Rolling Airframe Missile Block 2. Not proceeded with to date. ExLS has only had CAMM integrated to date, all other proposals have come to naught so far. Looks like it will come into service with the RCN in the CAMM configuration on their T26 derivative.

 

[that_person]

Picture of the RAM-Mk29 concept, book is from 1987

 

[TomS]

Picture of the RAM-Mk29 concept, book is from 1987

I'm intrigued by the text about a "smaller" VLS being considered for the Perry and Knox-class frigates. Wonder if they mean a Tactical-Length Mk 41 or something more like the Mk 48 for Sea Sparrow.

I'm guessing that this is Polmar's Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet? I have the 1984 edition, which doesn't have this particular image or text, but the font and layout style is very similar.

 

[that_person]

Picture of the RAM-Mk29 concept, book is from 1987

I'm intrigued by the text about a "smaller" VLS being considered for the Perry and Knox-class frigates. Wonder if they mean a Tactical-Length Mk 41 or something more like the Mk 48 for Sea Sparrow.

I'm guessing that this is Polmar's Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet? I have the 1984 edition, which doesn't have this particular image or text, but the font and layout style is very similar.

Yup, the 15th Edition, for a few bucks it’s a good investment.

I’ve never figured out what it was referencing. Looking at the deck plans of a Knox, I doubt you could fit even a Self-Defense Length Mk41. That being said, maybe it’s talking about the Mk48 or Mk56, mounted above deck?

 

[timmymagic]

I’ve never figured out what it was referencing. Looking at the deck plans of a Knox, I doubt you could fit even a Self-Defense Length Mk41. That being said, maybe it’s talking about the Mk48 or Mk56, mounted above deck?

That sounds like the Mk.48

 

[TomS]

I’ve never figured out what it was referencing. Looking at the deck plans of a Knox, I doubt you could fit even a Self-Defense Length Mk41. That being said, maybe it’s talking about the Mk48 or Mk56, mounted above deck?

That sounds like the Mk.48

Possibly like the Mk 48 Mod 0 alongside the helo hangar in the Halifax class., But even that takes up a lot of deck area/width that wasn't really there on the Knox class.

More likely this is a reference to a notional "lightweight" VLS that would be mounted right onto the side of a superstructure and vented directly overboard. Like the frigate sketch here:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/sea-phoenix.12496/post-453810

 

[that_person]

So apparently the UAE has an 11 cell RAM launcher. I’ve never seen this before. It is *not* SeaRAM

 

[TomS]

So apparently the UAE has an 11 cell RAM launcher. I’ve never seen this before. It is *not* SeaRAM

It's SeaRAM without the Phalanx radar. I can't find the separate designation, but it's been around as a concept since the 2010s or so. Seems like UAE is the only taker, which suggests those ships are pretty weight-constrained.

 

[TomS]

it's been around as a concept since the 2010s or so.

My mistake. Since around 2000, apparently.

Defense Acquisitions: Comprehensive Strategy Needed to

In November 1998, the United States and Germany amended the Block I
development Memorandum of Understanding to include scope and funding for the
development of a helicopter/aircraft/surface craft (HAS) upgrade of the RAM
missile. Requiring only software changes to the RAM Block I missile, the HAS
upgrade will extend RAM targets to include helicopters, aircraft, and
surface ships. Navy plans indicate that all RAM installations on LSDs, LHDs,
LPDs, and CV/CVNs will be the HAS configuration by 2009. Also, the Navy is
developing an 11-round guided missile launcher in the HAS mode configuration
for installation on CG 52 through 73 between 2004 and 2009.

 

[Voltzz]

Danish RAM Alternate Launching System and a different lightweight 8-round launcher by General Dynamics

 

[TomS]

It's SeaRAM without the Phalanx radar. I can't find the separate designation, but it's been around as a concept since the 2010s or so. Seems like UAE is the only taker, which suggests those ships are pretty weight-constrained.

Speaking of which, I realized that we didn't have the actual SeaRAM designation in this thread. IT's actually treated as being in the Mk 15 CIWS family, and there are several variants. I haven't found a source that describes the differences between Mods.

Mk 15 Mod 31: for LCS (all the Independence class and the later Freedom class)
Mk 15 Mod 32: possibly for export?
MK 15 Mod 33: for DDGs

Source: https://www.navy.mil/Resources/Fact...2168961/rim-116-rolling-airframe-missile-ram/

 

[H_K]

and a different lightweight 8-round launcher by General Dynamics

That 8 round launcher seems perfect for smaller combattants like corvettes and OPVs, and as a secondary on larger warships (similar to Sadral)… a little surprised it never made it to market.

(There is the 11 round launcher on the UAE’s two Arialah class patrol boats, which looks like a cutdown SeaRAM without the radar on top, but still fairly heavy and cumbersome)

 

[TomS]

So apparently the UAE has an 11 cell RAM launcher. I’ve never seen this before. It is *not* SeaRAM

I wonder if this might be CIWS Mk 15 Mod 2?

 

[TinWing]

That 8 round launcher seems perfect for smaller combattants like corvettes and OPVs, and as a secondary on larger warships (similar to Sadral)… a little surprised it never made it to market.

(There is the 11 round launcher on the UAE’s two Arialah class patrol boats, which looks like a cutdown SeaRAM without the radar on top, but still fairly heavy and cumbersome)

SeaRAM is only a good idea for the USN where the ease of swapping out with Phalanx mountings outweighs the loss of gun based CIWS for only 11 missiles

For a smaller navy, with smaller ships, keeping the lone Phalanx while adding a compact 8 or 10 cell RAM launcher on each beam would have been the way to go.

 

[TomS]

SeaRAM is only a good idea for the USN where the ease of swapping out with Phalanx mountings outweighs the loss of gun based CIWS for only 11 missiles

For a smaller navy, with smaller ships, keeping the lone Phalanx while adding a compact 8 or 10 cell RAM launcher on each beam would have been the way to go.

This just doesn't make sense to me. RAM is flat-out a better anti-missile defense than a gun-based CIWS. Remember that the USN actually wanted RAM as its long-term CIWS from the outset; Phalanx was only intended as an interim solution. Eleven RAM is at least as many stowed kills as Phalanx, even with the new enlarged magazine. Especially in the newer versions of RAM where the second missile in a shoot-shoot-look engagement can be redirected elsewhere if the first one works.

The better solution, IMO, is SeaRAM plus less elaborate guns for small-boat and drone killing.

 

[TomS]

Speaking of which, I realized that we didn't have the actual SeaRAM designation in this thread. IT's actually treated as being in the Mk 15 CIWS family, and there are several variants. I haven't found a source that describes the differences between Mods.

Mk 15 Mod 31: for LCS (all the Independence class and the later Freedom class)
Mk 15 Mod 32: possibly for export?
MK 15 Mod 33: for DDGs

Source: https://www.navy.mil/Resources/Fact...2168961/rim-116-rolling-airframe-missile-ram/

Looking closely at pictures, it seems that the key difference between Mod 31 and Mod 33 may be that the later has a deflector plate behind the missiles to prevent their exhaust from impinging on parts of the superstructure.

SeaRAM (Mod 31?) on LCS-4



SeaRAM (Mod 33?) on DDG-78




Problem with this theory is that the Navy says all LCS have Mod 31 and I found a video of a SeaRAM with the deflector on LCS-17.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=237163944139123

View: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=237163944139123

 

[that_person]

Another view of RALS.

 

[that_person]

Apparently the Mk49 is a further evolved design of something called the "Mk43." Anyone have any reading material on this?

 

[TomS]

Apparently the Mk49 is a further evolved design of something called the "Mk43." Anyone have any reading material on this>

There's one line in Friedman, US Naval Weapons (1982). Mk 43 was the original 24-cell launcher for RAM, also based on the Phalanx base. But it evolved into the 21-cell MK 49 right about that time and every test launch I can find is from the newer launcher so it's possible the Mk 43 was strictly a paper design. My guess would be the weight of the moving mass grew and they decided that rather than rebuild the base with beefier motors, they would cut back on the number of missiles.

 

[sferrin]

This just doesn't make sense to me. RAM is flat-out a better anti-missile defense than a gun-based CIWS. Remember that the USN actually wanted RAM as its long-term CIWS from the outset; Phalanx was only intended as an interim solution. Eleven RAM is at least as many stowed kills as Phalanx, even with the new enlarged magazine. Especially in the newer versions of RAM where the second missile in a shoot-shoot-look engagement can be redirected elsewhere if the first one works.

The better solution, IMO, is SeaRAM plus less elaborate guns for small-boat and drone killing.

I wouldn't be surprised if Phalanx could be used manually in a surface attack mode. Don't know how you could do that with RAM, or how effective it would be.

 

[TomS]

I wouldn't be surprised if Phalanx could be used manually in a surface attack mode. Don't know how you could do that with RAM, or how effective it would be.

Phalanx Surface Mode (PSUM) is certainly a thing -- it's associated with Phalanx Block 1B that adds the FLIR camera alongside the radar.

RAM also has what is referred to as Helicopter, Aircraft, Surface mode to engage all of those target types, in addition to the original missile targets. It's basically just a software tweak, possibly related to the upgrade for engaging non-emitting ASCMs.

 

[Cjc]

Danish RAM Alternate Launching System and a different lightweight 8-round launcher by General Dynamics

I don't suppose anyone has any date on that 8 round launcher.