Rods from God / "Project Thor"

[antigravite]

In Chinese, "Rods from God" is writen as "上帝之杖".

A.

 

[antigravite]

However, the Chinse patent responds to way earlier US patents… such as:

Applicants: US ARMY
Inventors: MORRISON ALFRED M; VAMOS JOHN S; DORSEY WILLIAM G; LYONS W CARSON
IPC: F42B12/06; F42B15/12; (IPC1-7): F42B12/02;
CPC: F42B12/06 (EP); F42B15/12 (EP);
Priorities: US26640294A·1994-06-27; US44612195A·1995-05-19
Application: US44612195A·1995-05-19
Publication: US5649488A·1997-07-22
Published as: US5649488A
Title: Non-explosive target directed reentry projectile
Abstract: The non-explosive core of a reentry projectile is fixedly positioned within a hollow casing of the projectile at a location maximizing conversion and transfer of kinetic energy to an earth bound target in response to the projectile's impact at a hypersonic velocity and at a steep impact angle to the surface of the earth. The hollow casing is formed of a material capable of withstanding high temperatures, therefore, not requiring any cooling and allowing for the hollow casing to be free of heat transfer medium that might otherwise impede the desired quick release of the core upon impact of the projectile. The core is in the form of a single dense metallic slug having a mass establishing a center of gravity and moments of inertia for the projectile as a kinetic energy warhead corresponding to that of an explosive or nuclear warhead without weapon system modification.
- - - - - - - -
etc.

 

[Conspirator]

Abstract The invention discloses a space-based kinetic energy weapon regressive orbit deployment method for a regional striking task. According to the space-based kinetic energy weapon regressive orbit deployment method for the regional striking task, the rapid striking task can be completed on the same task background only through nine platforms. By means of the orbit characteristic that a sub-satellite point track returns to an original passing path again a certain period of time later through the regression effect brought by the special relation between the regressive orbit cycle and the earth rotation cycle, an orbit deployment way of space-based kinetic energy weapons for the regional striking task in a single orbit plane can be achieved only through one platform, and thus the total number of platforms required by the task is greatly reduced.

A.
[/QUOTE]
A copycat project possibly?

 

[antigravite]

Abstract The invention discloses a space-based kinetic energy weapon regressive orbit deployment method for a regional striking task. According to the space-based kinetic energy weapon regressive orbit deployment method for the regional striking task, the rapid striking task can be completed on the same task background only through nine platforms. By means of the orbit characteristic that a sub-satellite point track returns to an original passing path again a certain period of time later through the regression effect brought by the special relation between the regressive orbit cycle and the earth rotation cycle, an orbit deployment way of space-based kinetic energy weapons for the regional striking task in a single orbit plane can be achieved only through one platform, and thus the total number of platforms required by the task is greatly reduced.

A.

A copycat project possibly?
[/QUOTE]
I honnestly don't know. What I understand, is that Chinese scientists explored this concept too which is the normal way of doing things, to just understand, analyze, evaluate and report either in the open or in least accessible publications. I went rapidly through the Chinese patent and the authors / inventors explicitly refer to the US concept. So there is no mystery here. You'll find many patents covering this concept including Scapa Flo'w US7669802B2 patent entitled "Space based orbital kinetic energy weapon system", etc. SO copycat, I don't know. From what I see in open lit, of which published patent applications and issued patents are part of, all seems to be normal. The subject is not. If you want to go deeper, then you have to switch to less theoretical material such as various ways of producing highly reactive, compact, tungsten based alloys, etc. which you can find in open lit too. But this seems to be quite another story and I don't have the tools nor expertise nor even time… to go that deep. Nor am I willing to, either, anyway.

A

 

[Conspirator]

thats gotta be a copy of our project. if that station gets operational. the world will be on the brink of war. we cant let this happen.just no. we have already been over the issues with having an orbital space weapon in previous posts, but china? thats almost as bad as Al Queda having one. now the question is how far along are they with it? i understand that you wouldn't want to dig any deeper on this but this is unbelievable. thanks for the info i will see what i can find.

 

[jsport]

Russia calls for mechanism to prevent deployment of weapons in space

Moscow (Sputnik) Sep 14, 2021 - Russia calls on the international community to start negotiation on the development of a global mechanism banning the deployment of arms in space, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov said

www.spacewar.com

 

[antigravite]

thats gotta be a copy of our project. if that station gets operational. the world will be on the brink of war. we cant let this happen.just no. we have already been over the issues with having an orbital space weapon in previous posts, but china? thats almost as bad as Al Queda having one. now the question is how far along are they with it? i understand that you wouldn't want to dig any deeper on this but this is unbelievable. thanks for the info i will see what i can find.

You can always find anything on anything, anytime. But the question: do you have a complete collection or just samples? If you don't spend a lot of time doing your homework understand the history of any given subject, how actors influence each others, how they react or adapt to new contexts or situations, or any other variable… Your study, your end product will bear the plague of bias. Anything you do or try to report has to have an effect. Such as enlighting people to understand better oand/or take wiser decisions. This subject, for which I started the thread, is getting increasingly complex and there would be so much homework to do to collect then piece things up together ten analyse then make recommendations, in a sufficiently balanced way, to meet my own standards, that I prefer to watch nitflex, walk the dog, look at the stars, read poetry or be marvelled by mother nature.

A.

 

[antigravite]

Russia calls for mechanism to prevent deployment of weapons in space

Moscow (Sputnik) Sep 14, 2021 - Russia calls on the international community to start negotiation on the development of a global mechanism banning the deployment of arms in space, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov said

www.spacewar.com

Nice chessplayer's move from their classical repertoire, which they play well.
A.

 

[Forest Green]

Tell them to discuss the matter with China first.

 

[antigravite]

Tell them to discuss the matter with China first.

No need to. They likely did. Quite a long time ago.
Maybe as results and consequences of program 863 and its successors, such as super-863 for a start.

Worth reading today:
Dr Bates Gill and Taeho Kim, China's Arms Acquisitions from Abroad: A Quest for 'Superb and Secret Weapons',
Publisher: Oxford University Press, 1995, 159 pp. [ISBN 0-19-829195-7]
source: https://www.sipri.org/publications/...itions-abroad-quest-superb-and-secret-weapons

A.

 

[publiusr]

That is a good find.

 

[Forest Green]

That is a good find.

Has a page on wiki too.

863 Program - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Conspirator]

Now I know that it’s been a while. And we have had time to discuss and develop better technology in the time being. I have a smol problem. What about the new SpaceX Starship/Falcon Super Heavy? It’s very well possible that the military could conduct joint operations with Elon musk to get the rods up there once this has been tested and is deemed reliable. This thing is massive. It is expected to produce 8.8 million pounds of maximum thrust (39.1 Meganewtons), 15 percent more than the Saturn V, meaning it's expected to be the world's most powerful rocket at the time it begins operating. It is very well possible that this could be Project Thor’s breakthrough to ultimate possibility.
Tell me your thoughts.

 

[Forest Green]

Now I know that it’s been a while. And we have had time to discuss and develop better technology in the time being. I have a smol problem. What about the new SpaceX Starship/Falcon Super Heavy? It’s very well possible that the military could conduct joint operations with Elon musk to get the rods up there once this has been tested and is deemed reliable. This thing is massive. It is expected to produce 8.8 million pounds of maximum thrust (39.1 Meganewtons), 15 percent more than the Saturn V, meaning it's expected to be the world's most powerful rocket at the time it begins operating. It is very well possible that this could be Project Thor’s breakthrough to ultimate possibility.
Tell me your thoughts.

Nah, I think they should go for the fusion-pumped, phased array, mode-locked free electron laser onboard an orbital platform with fusion-sourced DACT and propulsion.

 

[Conspirator]

I mean yes t

Now I know that it’s been a while. And we have had time to discuss and develop better technology in the time being. I have a smol problem. What about the new SpaceX Starship/Falcon Super Heavy? It’s very well possible that the military could conduct joint operations with Elon musk to get the rods up there once this has been tested and is deemed reliable. This thing is massive. It is expected to produce 8.8 million pounds of maximum thrust (39.1 Meganewtons), 15 percent more than the Saturn V, meaning it's expected to be the world's most powerful rocket at the time it begins operating. It is very well possible that this could be Project Thor’s breakthrough to ultimate possibility.
Tell me your thoughts.

Nah, I think they should go for the fusion-pumped, phased array free electron laser onboard an orbital platform with fusion-sourced DACT and propulsion.

hey could do that too. But they don’t have to tell the public about this. They could just say. “AvIoNiCs aNd sPaCeFlIgHt eQuIpMeNt” instead of “a tungsten steel alloy rod that will be delivered to a orbital station” when they launch it. In my opinion it’s kinda smart. But that’s just me.

 

[Byeman]

I mean yes t

Now I know that it’s been a while. And we have had time to discuss and develop better technology in the time being. I have a smol problem. What about the new SpaceX Starship/Falcon Super Heavy? It’s very well possible that the military could conduct joint operations with Elon musk to get the rods up there once this has been tested and is deemed reliable. This thing is massive. It is expected to produce 8.8 million pounds of maximum thrust (39.1 Meganewtons), 15 percent more than the Saturn V, meaning it's expected to be the world's most powerful rocket at the time it begins operating. It is very well possible that this could be Project Thor’s breakthrough to ultimate possibility.
Tell me your thoughts.

Nah, I think they should go for the fusion-pumped, phased array free electron laser onboard an orbital platform with fusion-sourced DACT and propulsion.

hey could do that too. But they don’t have to tell the public about this. They could just say. “AvIoNiCs aNd sPaCeFlIgHt eQuIpMeNt” instead of “a tungsten steel alloy rod that will be delivered to a orbital station” when they launch it. In my opinion it’s kinda smart. But that’s just me.

Still not viable.
a. There is no such thing as "joint operations" The military either buys a ride or it doesn't (just like Falcon 9)
b. Still need many (dozens) of payloads in different orbits for quick reaction time.
c. Can't hide them. It will be known.

 

[Tomahawk missile fan]

So... Zeus striking at Poseidon can be a thing.

Rods from Gods.. apply named

More like Thor striking at Jormungandr.

From G.I.Joe Retailation screen shot, ZEUS launch ready tangsten lods.

 

[Dilandu]

From G.I.Joe Retailation screen shot, ZEUS launch ready tangsten lods.

Yeah, pretty ridiculous scene:

* Rod, detached from space station, would not fell down. It would continue to move at the same orbit as station. The real "Thor" was supposed to have rocket booster attached to slow down the rod & make it fell into the atmosphere.
* The rod, hitting earth, would be instantly vaporized by compression heat, so it would be a bright flash and poweful explosion in the point of impact.
* The scale of destruction is way too great for a single tungsten rod.

 

[Tomahawk missile fan]

From G.I.Joe Retailation screen shot, ZEUS launch ready tangsten lods.

Yeah, pretty ridiculous scene:

* Rod, detached from space station, would not fell down. It would continue to move at the same orbit as station. The real "Thor" was supposed to have rocket booster attached to slow down the rod & make it fell into the atmosphere.
* The rod, hitting earth, would be instantly vaporized by compression heat, so it would be a bright flash and poweful explosion in the point of impact.
* The scale of destruction is way too great for a single tungsten rod.

ZEUS fire tangsten rod target to London.
Impact the tangsten rod, make earthquake and devastation.
I think tangsten rod fire from space, same nuclear bomb yield of 100Megaton over.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I think tangsten rod fire from space, same nuclear bomb yield of 100Megaton over.

You are *phenomenally* wrong. Basic math:

1) Assume a tungsten rod 10 cm in diameter, 4 meters long. Density: 19.3 g/cm^3. Mass: 3.14159*(10/2)^2 X 400 *19.3 = 606.3 kilograms. Not even one ton.
2) Assume low Earth orbit, 200 km, about 27,400 kph = 7,611 meters per second.
3) Assume that, somehow, magically, the tungsten rod impacts the Earth with *all* of its orbital velocity. Kinetic energy would thus be 1/2 *606.3*(7611^2)= 17,560,667,361 Joules.

17.56 mega gigajoules. That's a lot. But what is one megaton? 4.184e+15 Joules. That's 4,184,000,000,000,000 Joules. You would need 238,260 of those rods for *one* megaton of yield. Or you'd need a rod 238,260 times more massive: 62 times larger in each dimension or, 6.2 meters in diameter, 248 meters long. That's for *one* megaton, not 100.

 

[Tomahawk missile fan]

Thank you reply.
G.I.joe Retailation's world, one tangsten rod hit, devastation on London.
Nuclear weapon make radioactivity and radioactivity contamination.
But tangsten rod from space weapon is not make radioactivity.

 

[Dilandu]

ZEUS fire tangsten rod target to London.

ZEUS didn't seems to have any kind of "firing" facility. The velocity of rod leaving its "barrel" is not even nearly enough to de-orbit the rod. Also, the shot should be not "eathward", but tangential to the orbit.

Impact the tangsten rod, make earthquake and devastation.

The tungsten rod would hit the ground at several times of speed of sound in the ground. Since there isn't enough time for the ground (or rod) to react elastically, both are compressed against each other. The kinetic energy of the rod turned into heat with compression. The heat vaporize the rod, causing explosion.

I really doubt that there would be "artificial earthquake" effect - contrary to the common assumption, rod would not penetrate deep into the ground before evaporating.

I think tangsten rod fire from space, same nuclear bomb yield of 100Megaton over.

No. The rule of thumb here is that the given mass, impacting at 3 km/s would produce the energy equival to the same mass in TNT (i.e. one ton rod hitting at 3 km/s would explode with the force of one ton of TNT). The "Thor" rods were supposed to hit at higher velocities - but just several times higher, not the order of magnitude.

 

[Tomahawk missile fan]

ZEUS fire tangsten rod target to London.

ZEUS didn't seems to have any kind of "firing" facility. The velocity of rod leaving its "barrel" is not even nearly enough to de-orbit the rod. Also, the shot should be not "eathward", but tangential to the orbit.

Impact the tangsten rod, make earthquake and devastation.

The tungsten rod would hit the ground at several times of speed of sound in the ground. Since there isn't enough time for the ground (or rod) to react elastically, both are compressed against each other. The kinetic energy of the rod turned into heat with compression. The heat vaporize the rod, causing explosion.

I really doubt that there would be "artificial earthquake" effect - contrary to the common assumption, rod would not penetrate deep into the ground before evaporating.

I think tangsten rod fire from space, same nuclear bomb yield of 100Megaton over.

No. The rule of thumb here is that the given mass, impacting at 3 km/s would produce the energy equival to the same mass in TNT (i.e. one ton rod hitting at 3 km/s would explode with the force of one ton of TNT). The "Thor" rods were supposed to hit at higher velocities - but just several times higher, not the order of magnitude.

Thank you reply.
Real rods from god is under concept.
But if successful in development rods from god, don't leave from earth.

 

[sferrin]

 

[OliverSedlacek]

I think tangsten rod fire from space, same nuclear bomb yield of 100Megaton over.

You are *phenomenally* wrong. Basic math:

1) Assume a tungsten rod 10 cm in diameter, 4 meters long. Density: 19.3 g/cm^3. Mass: 3.14159*(10/2)^2 X 400 *19.3 = 606.3 kilograms. Not even one ton.
2) Assume low Earth orbit, 200 km, about 27,400 kph = 7,611 meters per second.
3) Assume that, somehow, magically, the tungsten rod impacts the Earth with *all* of its orbital velocity. Kinetic energy would thus be 1/2 *606.3*(7611^2)= 17,560,667,361 Joules.

17.56 megajoules. That's a lot. But what is one megaton? 4.184e+15 Joules. That's 4,184,000,000,000,000 Joules. You would need 238,260 of those rods for *one* megaton of yield. Or you'd need a rod 238,260 times more massive: 62 times larger in each dimension or, 6.2 meters in diameter, 248 meters long. That's for *one* megaton, not 100.

17.56 gigajoules (just can't let that slip past, even if there's nothing wrong with the analysis)

 

[OliverSedlacek]

I hope people will forgive me if I share my musings. The USP of "Rods from Gods" is not its power but that there's no defence.

The launch system is obviously vulnerable to a pre-emptive attack, but once re-entry has been initiated there's no stopping it. This brings us on to the problem of 'end of life' decommissioning, where the usual burn up in the atmosphere isn't going to work.

 

[Orionblamblam]

17.56 gigajoules (just can't let that slip past, even if there's nothing wrong with the analysis)

Correction made to the syntax, though the math seems to remain correct to first order.

'end of life' decommissioning

Several tons of tungsten in orbit will be valuable raw materials for any number of applications.

 

[Orionblamblam]

A demonstration of dubious relevance.

 

[martinbayer]

I hope people will forgive me if I share my musings. The USP of "Rods from Gods" is not its power but that there's no defence.

The launch system is obviously vulnerable to a pre-emptive attack, but once re-entry has been initiated there's no stopping it. This brings us on to the problem of 'end of life' decommissioning, where the usual burn up in the atmosphere isn't going to work.

Since these doohickeys would by definition be supposed to have a high targeting accuracy, how about aiming them at for example the Mariana Trench (or even any geographically and politically convenient desert, if raw material recovery is an objective) for disposal? Monitoring and/or alerting any sea or air traffic (think for example NOTAMs) should be manageable, as long as you stay away from known overland travel routes.

 

[publiusr]

These may be of more use than bombs in directing lava-more trench than crater

 

[OliverSedlacek]

17.56 gigajoules (just can't let that slip past, even if there's nothing wrong with the analysis)

Correction made to the syntax, though the math seems to remain correct to first order.

'end of life' decommissioning

Several tons of tungsten in orbit will be valuable raw materials for any number of applications.

Yes, we use tungsten commercially and it's bloody expensive. Assuming it will be de-orbited somewhere safe that will probably be into the sea, where recovery may be tricky. I guess you could catch it in a net maybe 100m below the surface.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Yes, we use tungsten commercially and it's bloody expensive. Assuming it will be de-orbited somewhere safe that will probably be into the sea, where recovery may be tricky. I guess you could catch it in a net maybe 100m below the surface.

And that's why you don't de orbit it. Leave it there, process it into new stuff in space.

 

[OliverSedlacek]

I expect it will de-orbit in time, either controlled or uncontrolled.

 

[trose213]

A demonstration of dubious relevance.

We already know the effect of kinetic weapons. All these wanna-be mythbusters even screwed up their own experiment by using a block and a helicopter, instead of a drone and pointed objects.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1601320586500014080

View: https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1601320586500014080

 

[bobbymike]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yos4oz_d0c0