Pardon me, archive binging again!
Speaking of USN nuclear powered ships, given the timeframe do you think it's possible a successful NIGS design might have ended up using a couple of the USN's D2G reactors?
Possibly. The S5W that the UK got ahold of is 15,000hp, the D2G is twice that.
I'm not sure how scalable the S5W/PWR1 design is, and I'm not sure the answer is something that we could put here.
However, note that a nuclear powered cruiser or destroyer is going to be 9,000-10,000 tons. D2G is roughly 1400 tons of reactor and systems!
Just a quick note on studied RN nuclear propulsion plants of the time.
The Director of General Engineering studied a configuration consisting of a 20,000SHP plus a 20,000SHP pressure fired boiler, there was a second study with 30,000SHP at each of the two stages.
CONAS seems such an odd design.
The bigger study is D2G power levels out of the reactor. It looks like the C1W for the Long Beach is 40k hp.
And again, the minimum size for a nuclear powered surface ship seems to run about 9000 tons.
It seems odd that the work on the NIGS studies was not used for the SIGS frigate, they must have known that the NIGS ships were the optimum size for air-defence ships and yet they went back to sqaure one and came right back to a 7,000 ton destroyer.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the SIGS folks were told "7000 tons is too big, do another study and find a smaller size (= cheaper) ship!"
The Talos system gave the USN amazing long range reach, as demonstrated over Vietnam, but was only available on one or sometimes two platforms in a task force.
The Talos ship also tended to carry the Air Defense Flag, the Commodore or 1-star admiral in charge of the entire escort group.
At the time, there weren't a huge number of missiles in any given attack on the carrier group (only one missile per bomber). This meant that the Talos ship could sit next to the carrier as goalkeeper and still put missiles out onto the incoming, while the Terrier/Tartar ships were probably 30 miles away and able to shoot at about the same time.
The Fourth Meeting discussed possible launchers and estimated ship sizes.
6,000 tons was the desired size of the ship, with 40-50 missiles. No studies had been made at that time, but it was roughly working out at 8,000 tons and 30ft longer than County at that stage. If no guns were fitted then 2 launchers might fit on 6-7,000 tons.
There they go again, trying to stuff 10lbs of stuff into a 1lb can...
We know how impressive Talos could be at downing jets at extreme range. It also had a useful surface to surface capability according to one source.
But it was a deadend and by 1980 had gone to be replaced by Standard. Seadart compared favourably at first with early Standards. But Standard continued to evolve.
Would the taxpayer have been better served if CF299 and Aster had gone the way of NIGs. Or could we have done more with Seadart?
You could have done a LOT more with Sea Dart.
As electronics got smaller, redesign the missile body to fit more fuel in, maybe use a larger booster, and probably a larger warhead. FFS,
Sidewinder has a warhead nearly that big!
Talos went through 2 airframe redesigns
while in service. First to increase range, second to a unified airframe so that ships could just store a few nuclear warheads instead of complete missiles and swap warheads as needed.
I have done a very crude estimation to see if indeed the launcher drawings matched a conversion of a County class hull.
The attached is a crude mashup of my scaled NIGS launcher and magazine to a cross section of the County hull with the deck lines and features shown matched up as close as possible to the plans.
What is surprising is perhaps the height of the NIGS launchers, they are quite high but perhaps not impossibly so for topweight concerns.
The forward launcher means the removal of the B turret (I suspect A would go too) and the complete replacement of the forward superstructure and bridge. Of course the plan drawing only shows us the forward angled face for the search radar. I suspect there would be one block holding all four arrays. I think that would fit but the aft array would be rather blocked by the forward funnel which I suspect would be removed, perhaps to be put into a midships mack to hold the usual surface search and navigation sets. Also, where would the bridge go? Below the angled radar block - which would be very low and probably poor views given the NIGS launcher right in front of it, especially given the missile blast problems - or on top of the search radars which would be very high indeed - effectively at foremast level!
Ticos and Burkes put the bridge above the antennas. And yes, the bridge on a Tico is something like 110ft up!
Did the RN really need a TALOS analogue? Probably rightly it decided it didnt.
Personally disagree. Once the threat was Mach 3 missiles, you need a long range SAM to intercept with a long range radar to go with.
Now that I think about it, that's probably the reason the Constellation-class FFGs got Aegis and SPY6s.
If I were to design a NIGS ship in 1958 it would look like ALBANY or LONG BEACH, though as the RN never came close to designing a nuclear surface combatant an ALBANY style 1957 cruiser revamp, Macks and all, would be my bet
Agreed that something like the Albany is highly likely.
Well when we look at the comparison between a Cruiser with twin Sea Dart Systems and the Type 82 DDG, it seems that for 50% more cost per ship you get more than twice (200%) more capability.
One might say that constrained ship size results in constrained ship life and constrained ship utility.
Exactly.
Here is my interpretation of the Scheme 16 NIGS DDGN design:
www.deviantart.com
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 170.69m (oa) x 18,29 x 5,67m
Displacement: 8500tons (standard)
Engines: 60.000shp, Westinghouse D1G or Rolls-Royce PWR1 Nuclear Reactors, 2 shafts
Range: Unlimited
Speed: Unknown probably around 59km/h (32knots)
Armaments:
2x2 NIGS SAM
3x4 GWS.21 Seacat SAM
2x1 40mm/56 QF Mk VIII AA Guns
2x Westland Wessex Helicopters
Sensors:
3x Type 903 Fire-control Radar, one for each MRS.3 director
1x Type 978 Surface Search / Navigation radar
4x Type 985 Tracking and Search radars
4x NIGS Illuminator Radars
1x Type 992 Air/Surface Search Radar
Very nice! As a side note, the PWR1 reactor is half the power needed. This would probably get something called a PWR2 that has little-to-nothing to do with the modern PWR2 in the Vanguard SSBNs or Astute class. The modern PWR2 is a bit under powered for what you're saying, only 27,500hp instead of the D1G's 30,000hp.