Rhineland 1936

[uk 75]

One of the great what-ifs is the failure
of Britain and France to stop Hitler from
unilaterally re militarising the Rhineland
in 1936.
On paper the French were still superior to
Germany in military forces and Czechoslovakia
was still intact. Britain's navy was able to
blockade Germany even if the army and
RAF were feeble. Only the political will
was lacking.

 

[Nick Sumner]

This.

http://www.changingthetimes.net/samples/asb/temptation.htm

;D

 

[uk 75]

Nick
Thank you for the link.
I am not sure if the outcomes would have
been as clear cut.
It is true that Hitler was ready to withdraw if France
resisted his occupation but the Nazis were skilled
at propaganda as their exploitation of the
Sudeten Germans showed. The French occupation
of the Ruhr had been a spur to Nazi propaganda of
victimhood.
British political opinion was very critical as well.

 

[uk 75]

Ever since I read the Turtledove treatment of a possible 1938 war I have been fascinated by the weapons that might have clashed in a Rhineland War.
A boardgame covers the strategic course of the War

The Rhineland War, 1936-37

Allies resist German occupation of the Rhineland in 1936! Alternative WWII in Europe

boardgamegeek.com

 

[Justo Miranda]

A democracy cannot go to war without having been previously attacked, especially when European societies had not yet recovered either mentally or economically from the horrors of the First World War.

The one who attacks first without measuring the long-term consequences usually loses.

 

[1635yankee]

A democracy cannot go to war without having been previously attacked, especially when European societies had not yet recovered either mentally or economically from the horrors of the First World War.

The one who attacks first without measuring the long-term consequences usually loses.

Your first sentence is wrong, at least if one includes -- and one should -- include "interventions" into what are now termed Third World countries. It's not an arrack on a peer, but it's still war from the invaded's viewpoint.

 

[1635yankee]

One of the great what-ifs is the failure
of Britain and France to stop Hitler from
unilaterally re militarising the Rhineland
in 1936.
On paper the French were still superior to
Germany in military forces and Czechoslovakia
was still intact. Britain's navy was able to
blockade Germany even if the army and
RAF were feeble. Only the political will
was lacking.

By this time the UK had pretty much stopped caring about the Versailles treaty (which was no more punitive than many historical peace treaties; the financial aspects of the treaty ending the Napoleonic Wars was about as severe as those of Versailles; I'm sure other examples can be found. Both the Ottoman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empires were both dismantled, unlike Germany), and I'm not aware of the UK even offering moral support in the face of Germany's blatant treaty violation.

 

[Elan Vital]

By this time the UK had pretty much stopped caring about the Versailles treaty (which was no more punitive than many historical peace treaties; the financial aspects of the treaty ending the Napoleonic Wars was about as severe as those of Versailles; I'm sure other examples can be found. Both the Ottoman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empires were both dismantled, unlike Germany), and I'm not aware of the UK even offering moral support in the face of Germany's blatant treaty violation.

They were only offering promises of mutual assistance treaties and exchanges between the headquarters if Germany attacked, but otherwise discouraged any act of coercion against Germany. The Belgians did the same.

So France had no support from anyone other than possibly the Soviets, at a time when they overestimated the current level of German rearmament and thus the means they would need to actually reoccupy the Rhineland and when the current makeup of the French army was such that they at the very least needed to mobilize the covering forces (1.1 million men) to pull their plan (Plan D) off. It wasn't believed that France could obtain any decisive results from a 1936 war except as part of a coalition.

Of course, now we know that Hitler intended to at least leave some ground before resisting and that Germany was weaker than France had estimated, but that was little comfort to the French government in 1936.

 

[uk 75]

Hitler like Putin was able to make the unreasonable sound reasonable.
In Britain he was not taken seriously enough at first.
Relations between Britain and France were strained.
People like Churchill who studied military history were outnumbered by populist pacfists who wanted peace and disarmament at any price.

But France still maintained a large army and navy The Royal Navy was still impressive. The RAF showed off at the Hendon Air Pageant.

A shooting war would initially have been between French and German soldiers but then?

 

[Dilandu]

People like Churchill who studied military history were outnumbered by populist pacfists who wanted peace and disarmament at any price.

You forgot also rabid anti-communists, who were willing to surrender most of Europe to fascits, if only to stop "global communist conspiracy" they imagined. Hitler played them as puppets to prevent the possibility of democracy-communist alliance (that was basically the only thing that could stop him efficiently; Germany was deeply afraid of two-frontline war in 1930s)

 

[1635yankee]

You forgot also rabid anti-communists, who were willing to surrender most of Europe to fascits, if only to stop "global communist conspiracy" they imagined. Hitler played them as puppets to prevent the possibility of democracy-communist alliance (that was basically the only thing that could stop him efficiently; Germany was deeply afraid of two-frontline war in 1930s)

Related to that is the common antisemitism within the elites of most European countries.

 

[Dilandu]

Related to that is the common antisemitism within the elites of most European countries.

True. And since USSR at this time have a lot of Jewish peoples in relatively high positions (and generally was MUCH more Jewish-friendly than Russian Empire before), a lot of European conservatives combined their antisemitism witn anticommunism into one rather ugly mix.

 

[Nicknick]

By this time the UK had pretty much stopped caring about the Versailles treaty (which was no more punitive than many historical peace treaties; the financial aspects of the treaty ending the Napoleonic Wars was about as severe as those of Versailles; I'm sure other examples can be found. Both the Ottoman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empires were both dismantled, unlike Germany), and I'm not aware of the UK even offering moral support in the face of Germany's blatant treaty violation.

The Ottoman Empire, the Austro-Hungarian empires as well as the British empire cannot be compared to a nation! Germany was humiliated and plundered by a war which Germany didn’t start and didn’t want to start. After the 1th world war, people have really been starving and millions lost their home (not to mention, about all lost their fortune).

Not following the devastating treaty of Versailles was simply a matter of survival. This treaty laid the foundation for the success of the Nazis. The secret purpose of this treaty was to drive Germany in a second war for a total destruction.

 

[Dilandu]

a war which Germany didn’t start and didn’t want to start.

Please. This is ridiculous.

 

[uk 75]

Actually this conversation is one that might have been had at a British country house weekend in 1936.
There were many in the upper set who saw Versailles as a vindictive attempt to keep Germany down and allow Jewish led Bolshevics and Monopolist Capitalists to dominate Europe and destroy the British Empire.
Meanwhile the likes of Bill Hayden (the aristocratic Cambridge educated "mole" in John Le Carre's version of MI6) were looking to Moscow for leadership against Fascism.
Ordinary folk in Britain were duly grateful to the wily Prime Minister Baldwin for focussing on economic recovery and ignored foreign affairs to focus on THE affair between King Edward and Mrs Simpson.
So gentlemen there could be no Turtledove style war over the Rhineland in 1936.
Shame as the RAF and Ad'Air had some wonderful old birds

 

[Nicknick]

There is no connection to anything Jewish, so please don't try to create an artificial connection.

The Ruhr area was plundered from its coal when people have been starving and freezing to death in the cold winters. You dont know what you are talking about!

 

[uk 75]

I was not discussing German attitudes to the Jews but pointing out the diverse attitudes in Britain.
It is worth remembering that London's East End gave Mosley and his blackshirts a well deserved thrashing.
Also I made clear that this thread was about possible weapons not politics.