Ask an accountant what 2+2 is.Also likely factors in inflation estimates and all sorts of future material/equipment costs that are ludicrously difficult to accurately quantify.Any reporting that uses numbers over 30yr periods or similar is deliberately inflammatory. It is exactly the same with the F-35 "$1 Trillion fighter" which also used multi-decade periods to come up with a big number.
Any reporting that uses numbers over 30yr periods or similar is deliberately inflammatory. It is exactly the same with the F-35 "$1 Trillion fighter" which also used multi-decade periods to come up with a big number.
See back on Page 34 of this exact thread where I addressed the NPT issue. And as for taking China's word on anything to do with this, one might as well take Russia's on anything to do with Ukraine.
That said the agreement seems “violate the spirit” of NPT, per the official Chinese statement, which implies it doesn’t technically violate it. I’m not sure of the treaty’s exact wording. Certainly opening up the reactor core and harvesting Pu would make sub forever inoperative and as such would make for very expensive warheads.
See back on Page 34 of this exact thread where I addressed the NPT issue. And as for taking China's word on anything to do with this, one might as well take Russia's on anything to do with Ukraine.
That said the agreement seems “violate the spirit” of NPT, per the official Chinese statement, which implies it doesn’t technically violate it. I’m not sure of the treaty’s exact wording. Certainly opening up the reactor core and harvesting Pu would make sub forever inoperative and as such would make for very expensive warheads.
You didn't really 'address the issue', GTX, you merely pointed out the loophole the US and the UK are using to export weapons grade material to a third party.
I'd say a loophole that opens up a difficult for the IAEA to regulate path for non-nuclear nations to obtain weapons grade material "violates the spirit" of the NPT, wouldnt you?
I suspect if it was the Russians or Chinese doing it, you'd be demanding action from the UNSC.
Then at the reactors end-of-life, it will magically become unsealed again and the reactor and any remaining fuel will be taken out of its sealed box and put into a high-level nuclear waste storage facility at a location yet to be determined somewhere in Australia.
Jeff - please lay off the histrionics and US bashing. If we start laying out the positive results of the rules based order initiated and maintained by the US since WWII this entire thread will be shut down. If you absolutely cannot control yourself, please confine it to direct messages. Thanks!
To call it a loophole is inaccurate - go read the text of the NPT. More importantly though the IAEA has already stated that "...on the basis of technical consultations and exchanges it has conducted with the AUKUS parties to date, is satisfied with the level of their engagement". No one is hiding anything from the AUKUS side. Moreover, read the following statement that shows both sides are working in a consultative, appropriate manner:
You didn't really 'address the issue', GTX, you merely pointed out the loophole the US and the UK are using to export weapons grade material to a third party.
No I do not agree with you. As already stated above and in earlier posts, I am comfortable that the appropriate actions have taken place and that this is fully IAW the NPT requirements that Australia is a supporter of. It is obvious you are against the SSN deal and you keep trying to raise objections and the like to justify your position. These are also countered and shown to be inaccurate - as I did with the NPT issue.I'd say a loophole that opens up a difficult for the IAEA to regulate path for non-nuclear nations to obtain weapons grade material "violates the spirit" of the NPT, wouldnt you?
Please stop making such assertions. I would deal with the facts of the case. My comments re not taking China's word re this deal is based upon a clear connection between China's obvious dislike of the AUKUS deal and self interests and thus any statements from them should be treated with appropriate scepticism.I suspect if it was the Russians or Chinese doing it, you'd be demanding action from the UNSC.
Based on what?12 Attack class boats that could cover 95% of the capability of the currently planned SSNs would have cost less than a quarter of the current proposal.
Failed?BAE have failed to do so,
And there is my assumption of the principle thing behind AUKUS - bases for use by the USN.So confirmed:
- 3 Virginias to be acquired with possibility of two more
- New "SSN-AUKUS" Class - presumably replaces SSN(R), or more to the point, SSN(R) is SSN-AUKUS
- SSN AUKUS start construction before EO Decade - first built in UK but others also in Australia (Adelaide)
- Cross postings, training etc happening
- More US/UK deployments to Australian ports
- RAN boats will be Nuclear powered but not Nuclear armed
- Australia will not be producing its own 'fuel'
Reading the releases so far, the plan is not to build all eight within a decade but to achieve a total of eight, including three to five Virginas, by 2050. If a delivery rate of one AUKUS SSN every two years can be achieved the three Virginias will do, if it is one every three years, there will need to be five Virginias.I wouldn't jump up and down about events still over a decade away.
The costs will be eye-watering - everyone knows that and that's the rub of the whole deal.
Whether Australia can build 8 SSNs within a decade (the 2040s) remains to be seen - I'm sceptical. BAE have failed to do so, the US with 2 yards have just about exceeded that figure now with a submarine in its third and fourth production blocks. You would like to think that the UK can have SSN(R) ready for beginning of fabrication by the end of the 2030s for the RN - though we don't yet know how many the MoD will fund yet. Certainly Rolls-Royce have their order books full for reactors.
I think you are right to point out the chokepoints in the plan.. However, the plan's ambitions are already acting as a deterrent to China.I wouldn't jump up and down about events still over a decade away.
The costs will be eye-watering - everyone knows that and that's the rub of the whole deal.
Whether Australia can build 8 SSNs within a decade (the 2040s) remains to be seen - I'm sceptical. BAE have failed to do so, the US with 2 yards have just about exceeded that figure now with a submarine in its third and fourth production blocks. You would like to think that the UK can have SSN(R) ready for beginning of fabrication by the end of the 2030s for the RN - though we don't yet know how many the MoD will fund yet. Certainly Rolls-Royce have their order books full for reactors.
Astute was "laid down" 31 January 2001, Agincourt might commission in 2026 - that's 25 years to build seven submarines.Failed?
Don't you mean UK Government failing to commit the spending?
Barrow had to slow the whole build down to fit No.11 dripfeed because next generation SSN and the SSBN were being questioned....by No.11 and a mixture of End of History and anti-nuclear campaigners.
No it spreads out the total cost, but that total is actually higher. Low rate production is inherently expensive, but means there is no complete production stop. You pay for premium of not loosing the capability to build more later on.There is no doubt stretching the build times has helped to reduce the cost burden by spreading the programme costs out
One every 8 eight years. To think the USN build the 41 for freedom in, what - a decade (1958-1968 ?) It didn't took them 328 years ! Plus all the nuclear attack subs (Skipjacks & Permits and a few others - two dozens ?)Astute was "laid down" 31 January 2001, Agincourt might commission in 2026 - that's 25 years to build seven submarines.
I think you will find that AUKUS was triggered/driven more by Australian requests than by US ones but that is taking us further off topicAnd there is my assumption of the principle thing behind AUKUS - bases for use by the USN.
Key point there: While the SSN deal might be the headline act, AUKUS is about a lot more than SSNs. There is more to come...So, yes, our French friends might have been able to supply some SSNs more effectively than the AUKUS deal but the US provides a whole lot more. You only have to listen to Beijing and Moscow to realise that.
No it spreads out the total cost, but that total is actually higher. Low rate production is inherently expensive, but means there is no complete production stop. You pay for premium of not loosing the capability to build more later on.There is no doubt stretching the build times has helped to reduce the cost burden by spreading the programme costs out
If I recall correctly, this was also a feature of the drawdown in US and French nuclear plant production - though whether it was due solely to the workers themselves, or some external factors (supply-chain contraction, managerial matters, etc), who knows?No it spreads out the total cost, but that total is actually higher. Low rate production is inherently expensive, but means there is no complete production stop. You pay for premium of not loosing the capability to build more later on.There is no doubt stretching the build times has helped to reduce the cost burden by spreading the programme costs out
I took a trip to Boston during a project called the "Big Dig." Taking a taxi from the airport one had to traverse a great deal of construction. So I asked the cab driver when the project would be finished. He told me his brother-in-law was a welder on the project and he said "when his last child finishes college."
There is an inherent cost to slowing down projects. The workers, themselves, will determine that it's in their best interest to slow it down even further.
Considering the present, growing chaos in my country (and the worst is probably to come) Australia might have been right to walk away from Attacks / Barracudas...
FranceConsidering the present, growing chaos in my country (and the worst is probably to come) Australia might have been right to walk away from Attacks / Barracudas...
For context, to which country are you referring?
Key point there: While the SSN deal might be the headline act, AUKUS is about a lot more than SSNs. There is more to come...So, yes, our French friends might have been able to supply some SSNs more effectively than the AUKUS deal but the US provides a whole lot more. You only have to listen to Beijing and Moscow to realise that.
Ahh...France
For context, to which country are you referring?
To be fair to France are they really that likely to be less reliable than, say, the UK?Key point there: While the SSN deal might be the headline act, AUKUS is about a lot more than SSNs. There is more to come...So, yes, our French friends might have been able to supply some SSNs more effectively than the AUKUS deal but the US provides a whole lot more. You only have to listen to Beijing and Moscow to realise that.
We've seen Switzerland’s adherence to a ban on the export and re-export of weapons and ammunition to conflict zones blocking NATO countries from giving Ukraine their stocks of Swiss-made ammunition and arms. Could the Australians have be assured of submarine systems support from France in some future conflict with an aggressor? Very likely. But, God love them, one never quite knows with the French. There is, unequivocally, no question with the US and UK. It is a clear signal to aggressors of unified power.
Canada, New Zealand, and the Republic of Korea participate in TALISMAN SABRE with Australia and the United States. Additionally, some 26 countries participate in RIMPAC (and Taiwan, I believe, in 2024). These are clear signals to aggressors of unified power.
It has been mentioned in prior posts the US, UK, Japan, and Australia have systematically removed barriers for joint support in the Pacific. AUKUS is the next step in that process; displaying a clear signal of unified power.
While none of us know if clear signals of unified power will deter aggression, history is quite clear on what happens when we don't. Humanity pays a much higher price for war than we do deterrence.
There will be more to come.
To be fair to France are they really that likely to be less reliable than, say, the UK?
It is arguable that in more recent history France has at least as great experience and track record of supporting their export customers high tech military equipment as the UK does. And the deal for the French subs were part of a wider effort and commitment by France, hence their reaction when Australia exited that deal.
And Australia has the 1941-1942 experience of the UK being unable to come to their aid to the extent required, with the US taking up the mantle as Australia’s key military partner.
And there is always the spectre (hopefully never to become corporeal) of the US turning in on itself and abandoning it allies.
Current positions being taken on Ukraine (and on Russia) by some in the US body-politic would feed this fear about the future reliability of the US as a military and diplomatic partner.
AUKUS probably should be seen as part of a concerted efforts to alleviate such concerns (including among countries not party to AUKUS).
None of this is to suggest the likelihood of a “doomsday” scenario or to talk down AUKUS. It’s more that anyone pointing to country A and definitively stating it’s more reliable than country B is at least tempting fate and that ultimately only time will tell.
Perhaps trying reading outside the bubble, particularly re: the feelings and fears of those outside the bubble;To be fair to France are they really that likely to be less reliable than, say, the UK?
France is one of the oldest US allies. It's aggressors that may irrationally question the support of France. And, again, France would be very likely to support Australia.
But there is no denying the 'special relationship' between the US, UK, and Australia. Therein accentuates no ambiguity and a clear signal to aggressors of unified power.
It is arguable that in more recent history France has at least as great experience and track record of supporting their export customers high tech military equipment as the UK does. And the deal for the French subs were part of a wider effort and commitment by France, hence their reaction when Australia exited that deal.
And Australia has the 1941-1942 experience of the UK being unable to come to their aid to the extent required, with the US taking up the mantle as Australia’s key military partner.
Neither was France able to come to their aid.
You will recall that Australians were subjects of the British Empire at the time. Their men and women deployed in 1939 to fight the Nazi regime ravaging Europe. So, actually, the US came to the aid of the UK, protecting Australian families while they were away fighting. That might add to a special relationship.
And there is always the spectre (hopefully never to become corporeal) of the US turning in on itself and abandoning it allies.
Always the spectre? Always widely feared? What evidence do you posit for such a statement?
Current positions being taken on Ukraine (and on Russia) by some in the US body-politic would feed this fear about the future reliability of the US as a military and diplomatic partner.
Election primary rhetoric adds to this nascent belief but $80 billion of support does not refute it? You must be tough to buy Christmas gifts for. That certainly doesn't constitute always widely feared.
AUKUS probably should be seen as part of a concerted efforts to alleviate such concerns (including among countries not party to AUKUS).
But not the $80 billion of support. The US Congress approved much of this aid, and the US is a representative democracy. 'The people' of the United States are supporting Ukraine and Europe.
Note too, the US is providing foreign military financing for allies to help backfill donations of military equipment they’ve made to Ukraine. The US is actually financing Europe to assist Europe.
It is fairly obvious that the US has led admirably during this crisis in Europe. Do you actually believe Sweden and Finland would have decided to join NATO if they widely feared the US would abandon her allies?
None of this is to suggest the likelihood of a “doomsday” scenario or to talk down AUKUS. It’s more that anyone pointing to country A and definitively stating it’s more reliable than country B is at least tempting fate and that ultimately only time will tell.
Yet that is exactly the contention you made with the prima facia argument being primary rhetoric. A "doomsday" scenario where the US will abandon her allies is widely feared
1. even though the US is has provided $80 billion in military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine and
2. even though historically neutral Sweden and Norway have decided to enter NATO of which the primary power projection is from the United States.
France is a noble country and a great democracy. The point amplified the distinctive relationship between the AUKUS members as amplified by the sharing of SSN technology and how that relationship should be viewed by aggressors.
i was being tongue in cheek saying this was a political point.Sorry folks, time for some politics.
When the going gets tough the country you need is not France or Britain. The USA remains the beat cop you go to.
So, yes, our French friends might have been able to supply some SSNs more effectively than the AUKUS deal but the US provides a whole lot more. You only have to listen to Beijing and Moscow to realise that.
Good call - please take this off line guys.
If you would like to continue this conversation I'd suggest a DM.
Shall we move on?
At the risk of stating the obvious, SSN(R) is now SSN-AUKUSWhat is SSN(R)?
That has not been the Australian case. I know that there was much frustration within the RAAF re Mirage III support over the years. I can also speak from personal experience with MRH90 and ARH Tiger support which was far from acceptable over the years. This to a large part has contributed to the recent decisions to exit both of these platforms from service in coming years.To be fair to France are they really that likely to be less reliable than, say, the UK?
It is arguable that in more recent history France has at least as great experience and track record of supporting their export customers high tech military equipment as the UK does.
It’s less about what Australia can do, and more about what a tinpot dictator with a compliant populace and chained press could do.You’d have to cut through the cladding for the nuclear fuel to remove the fissile material - and unless the fuel was fresh and unused you would have to problem of separating the Pu239 from the mix, and dealing with the radioactivity (and heat) of the actinides produced by the fission reaction.Or is the reason Australia is getting second hand boats is that the reactor material of those boats will be sufficiently degraded that extracting and chemically recovering enough material for nuclear weapon use would be extremely difficult or impossible?
Ah no, nuclear physics doesn’t work like that. Here let me explain;- Pu comes in two main varieties (or isotopes) Pu239 and Pu240. Nuclear weapons are made from Pu239 and not Pu240. If you leave Pu239 in a reactor for more than about 30 days it turns (transmutes) into Pu240.
Pu239 and Pu240 are extremely difficult to separate when mixed (unfeasible really), so even if the reactor initially starts with a high degree of Pu239, after 30 days of running, it’s turned into a mixture of 239/240.
Although these burnable moderator reactors are a lot more complex in their element conversions the above holds true.
The question was more about whether there's enough fissile material in a second-hand reactor to remove enough to make a weapon/s while still retaining enough reactor life to cover up the fact that you have removed enough material to make a weapon/s, this would be the IAEAs worry. But thanks for the explanation.
Then you’d have to replace or repair the cladding - which is built to very fine tolerances, fit it back in the reactor, and hope the fiddling about has not thrown anything out of whack, or that the tinkered-with fuel rod can cope with the extreme environment in the reactor - because if it doesn’t it will show up in the reactor chemistry checks.
Then there’s the issue of the US and UK personnel who are going to be floating around the boats, and the shipyard workers who will be blabbing about any odd procedures going on on the boats.
Thing is, it's doable though. The IAEA obviously think so.
It’s less about what Australia can do, and more about what a tinpot dictator with a compliant populace and chained press could do.You’d have to cut through the cladding for the nuclear fuel to remove the fissile material - and unless the fuel was fresh and unused you would have to problem of separating the Pu239 from the mix, and dealing with the radioactivity (and heat) of the actinides produced by the fission reaction.Or is the reason Australia is getting second hand boats is that the reactor material of those boats will be sufficiently degraded that extracting and chemically recovering enough material for nuclear weapon use would be extremely difficult or impossible?
Ah no, nuclear physics doesn’t work like that. Here let me explain;- Pu comes in two main varieties (or isotopes) Pu239 and Pu240. Nuclear weapons are made from Pu239 and not Pu240. If you leave Pu239 in a reactor for more than about 30 days it turns (transmutes) into Pu240.
Pu239 and Pu240 are extremely difficult to separate when mixed (unfeasible really), so even if the reactor initially starts with a high degree of Pu239, after 30 days of running, it’s turned into a mixture of 239/240.
Although these burnable moderator reactors are a lot more complex in their element conversions the above holds true.
The question was more about whether there's enough fissile material in a second-hand reactor to remove enough to make a weapon/s while still retaining enough reactor life to cover up the fact that you have removed enough material to make a weapon/s, this would be the IAEAs worry. But thanks for the explanation.
Then you’d have to replace or repair the cladding - which is built to very fine tolerances, fit it back in the reactor, and hope the fiddling about has not thrown anything out of whack, or that the tinkered-with fuel rod can cope with the extreme environment in the reactor - because if it doesn’t it will show up in the reactor chemistry checks.
Then there’s the issue of the US and UK personnel who are going to be floating around the boats, and the shipyard workers who will be blabbing about any odd procedures going on on the boats.
Thing is, it's doable though. The IAEA obviously think so.