Replacement for the Kawasaki T-4, possible joint UK-Japan advanced trainer?

Maro.Kyo

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It has been known that JASDF is already evaluating the possible options of replacing T-4 and T-7 (I'll call T-7A Red Hawk to avoid confusion) since at least last year and have sent RFIs for the evaluation of follow-on trainer acquisition strategy.

For the T-7, I think they will go for either the PC-9 or 12, or the Tucano and license produce it locally. Considering its characteristics, they'll probably also need a new ab-initio trainer on top of those prop trainers. The tricky part is T-4 imo. It's quite likely that they would license the Red Hawk and Italy's pitching M-346 quite seriously, especially since GCAP was found, but I certainly think that there's a real possibility and reason to develop a new advanced trainer, either on their own or with Britain.

What we can learn from ATT and Tactical Surrogate program is that there's real demand for a surrogate aircraft for use as an alternative in operational training. JASDF's current pilot pipeline starts with basic training on T-7 followed by medium-level training on T-4 and finally advanced training and opwerational conversion on the F-2B and F-15DJ. This has been quite a reduction from their previous pipeline which consisted of T-3 → T-1 → T-33 → T-2 → operational conversion. T-4 has effectively replaced T-1 and T-33 as well as partially the T-2. As you can see, the problem is that not only the operational conversion but quite a significant part of advanced training has been replaced by double seater fighters. T-4 is a trainer with comparable thrust to the Hawk so it might not be that great of a problem that it has assumed both the basic and part of the advanced training roles in the syllabus but there's big possible improvements that could be made with a trainer capable of acting as LIFT, off-loading F-2Bs and F-15DJs.

Adding to that, consider the fact that F-2Bs will be replaced by GCAP, which would be a very expensive, maybe a bit too expensive to be used as a conversion trainer. I think a LIFT/tactical surrogate of their own kind is a must going forward for any large air force with next gen fighters. This also applies to RAF. The problem with tactical surrogate though, is that it should mimic/replicate the actual fighter it should train the pilots for, in this case the GCAP, and I'm not sure if Red Hawk is compatible in terms of integrating GCAP features into it. There could be some serious issues to tackles, mostly concerning security on both sides, the US and Japan/UK. Obviously there's M-346(FA) and Leonardo could surely update its cockpit and avionics and implement necessary updates to the ITS, though I think such needs are better met with a trainer of larger thrust and maneuverability, eg. something powered by an EJ200.

Since I neither think that Japan is that interested in developing a T-4 replacement all on their own nor do I think they are interested in updating T-4, apart from licensing/acquiring off the shelf, the only option, and probably the most appropriate option in my view is a joint development of a replacement trainer with UK. The problem obviously is that UK has a pretty new Hawk T2/AJT and how they will proceed after the expiration of current UKMFTS is up to speculation. Though since it is very likely that the remaining Hawk T1s would need a replacement, I think there's a place for this new trainer in both air forces.

Some say that the trainer market is a bit too saturated at the moment, but when we consider how many options are out there that is an advanced trainer which could also work as a platform to develop a LIFT based on it, as well as potentially a tactical surrogate as well, the only options are Red Hawk, T-50 and maybe M-346. A new British-Japanese trainer imo has an actual business case not only in its home countries but also internationally, especially considering that the GCAP consortium also wants to export it, which would be even better if sold as a package of very expensive fighters coupled with cheaper means to train the pilots for.
 
The only snag for the UK is that now that military flying training is contractorised there is no incentive for the MoD to specify a new Hawk replacement unless the MoD wants to start paying the purchase costs for its own fast jet trainer fleet again.
There is no incentive for BAE Systems to design one as there is no guarantee that they would secure the contract from the MoD (unless it was unfairly awarded). So that is major stumbling block and probably why BAE Systems has been pretty happy to let the Hawk tail off and not worry about a replacement.

Leonardo haven't really had much sales success outside of Italy for the M346, which is probably why they hope pairing with Airbus might give them more leverage within an overall training package.

Japan will either go for off-the-shelf or design its own replacements, but folding it into GCAP seems unlikely, unless Japan brought M346 in some kind of workshare deal for example.
 
The only snag for the UK is that now that military flying training is contractorised there is no incentive for the MoD to specify a new Hawk replacement unless the MoD wants to start paying the purchase costs for its own fast jet trainer fleet again.
There is no incentive for BAE Systems to design one as there is no guarantee that they would secure the contract from the MoD (unless it was unfairly awarded). So that is major stumbling block and probably why BAE Systems has been pretty happy to let the Hawk tail off and not worry about a replacement.

Leonardo haven't really had much sales success outside of Italy for the M346, which is probably why they hope pairing with Airbus might give them more leverage within an overall training package.
Fair points right there. I've seen some not so good reports about the UKMFTS time to time over the years but I guess costs are more important here and governemt surely more to stick with UKMFTS leaving it as is or in case there's a miracle, actually try to fix it, rather than returning to a pipeline ran by MoD on their own. To be honest, I'm still not convinced that the privately bidded and ran training pipeline for pilots is the way to go in the future but I guess treasury is the king here.

Anyways, that means without any drastic change of MoD and cabinet approach to training pipeline, no UK trainer going forward. Now I understand better what kind of position Aeralis is in and how some former BAES folks are there.

To be fair for Leonardo, the important trainer replacement programs in NATO, probably those programs with more favorable requirements for the M-346 are yet to come and if anything, I'd expect quite a lot of NATO air forces to follow suit of Poland and Greece. Though I'm obviously not saying that M-346 will bag those programs without any serious competition. We'll see if their MoU with Airbus will eventually evolve into a bigger scope than just concerning ITS.

Japan will either go for off-the-shelf or design its own replacements, but folding it into GCAP seems unlikely, unless Japan brought M346 in some kind of workshare deal for example.
Coming back to the topic of this thread, yes the off-the-shelf license production is most likely and I agree, though I just wanted to see if there are any possibilities of a joint development of new trainer is there, since that is probably the only chance we see an indigenous "T-8" trainer. As you point out, the chances seems to be very slim.

Also, since UKMFTS will likely continue or even expand after 2033, yes you're probably right that T-4 replacement program wouldn't be part of GCAP, since both Italy and UK probably doesn't see any incentives for it. Though since T-4 replacement is huge in terms of program size, there's certainly quite a lot of leverage on their disposal for them to scale between M-346 and T-7A. I think said leverage could possibly be enough for them to demand the Italians a workshare deal, be it as part of GCAP or not.

With either M-346 or T-7A, they'll certainly going to need two different prop trainers, one ab initio and one basic, replacing both the T-7 and parts of T-4 assignments.
 
The m346 has sold pretty well
About on par with the T-50 family:
  • M346: 153 delivered or on order across 11 operators
  • T-50 family: 272 delivered or on order across 7 operators
 
The only snag for the UK is that now that military flying training is contractorised there is no incentive for the MoD to specify a new Hawk replacement unless the MoD wants to start paying the purchase costs for its own fast jet trainer fleet again.
There is no incentive for BAE Systems to design one as there is no guarantee that they would secure the contract from the MoD (unless it was unfairly awarded). So that is major stumbling block and probably why BAE Systems has been pretty happy to let the Hawk tail off and not worry about a replacement.

Only the other day BAE were talking about Hawk 'T.3'. A mid-life upgrade. Wonder if they'll try and get the Advanced Hawk back on track alongside it.

View: https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1676511263608696832
 
For the T-7, I think they will go for either the PC-9 or 12, or the Tucano and license produce it locally.
PC-7MKX
hat we can learn from ATT and Tactical Surrogate program is that there's real demand for a surrogate aircraft for use as an alternative in operational training. JASDF's current pilot pipeline starts with basic training on T-7 followed by medium-level training on T-4 and finally advanced training and opwerational conversion on the F-2B and F-15DJ.
T-38.png
Pipeline also includes flying T-38s in the US as an option.

Adding to that, consider the fact that F-2Bs will be replaced by GCAP, which would be a very expensive, maybe a bit too expensive to be used as a conversion trainer.
The F-2s and more importantly F-2Bs will likely still be around long after GCAP just for this purpose. The F-4EJ was supposed to retire long before it did and the RF-4E and RF-4EJ were still flying around until better recon platforms. Same with the RF-86F until the the RF-4EJ came along. There is also the chance that with how advanced 6th gen is seemingly getting, GCAP could have a training mode with AI safety features in place to act as trainers without needed a second seat.

I'm not sure if Red Hawk is compatible in terms of integrating GCAP features into it. There could be some serious issues to tackles, mostly concerning security on both sides, the US and Japan/UK. Obviously there's M-346(FA) and Leonardo could surely update its cockpit and avionics and implement necessary updates to the ITS, though I think such needs are better met with a trainer of larger thrust and maneuverability, eg. something powered by an EJ200.
Any Hawk platform is unlikely based on how its heading in the UK. For off the shelf solutions the M-346 seems the most likely.

Since I neither think that Japan is that interested in developing a T-4 replacement all on their own nor do I think they are interested in updating T-4, apart from licensing/acquiring off the shelf, the only option, and probably the most appropriate option in my view is a joint development of a replacement trainer with UK. The problem obviously is that UK has a pretty new Hawk T2/AJT and how they will proceed after the expiration of current UKMFTS is up to speculation. Though since it is very likely that the remaining Hawk T1s would need a replacement, I think there's a place for this new trainer in both air forces.
Shinmaywa has signed some digital engineering agreements with AERALIS on their modular jet trainers, but no news on if the platform would be considered by either the UK or Japan.

With either M-346 or T-7A, they'll certainly going to need two different prop trainers, one ab initio and one basic, replacing both the T-7 and parts of T-4 assignments.
The M-346 and T-7A seem the most likely however it would be nice to see which companies would be partnering with which airframe. Maybe MHI on the M-346 and Subaru on the T-7A if I had to guess. If that is the case that still leaves Kawasaki open to offer their own airframe or partner with someone else.
 
So that part is decided, and as expected.

Pipeline also includes flying T-38s in the US as an option.
I didn't knew that, thanks for the info. So if they were to retire T-4s, they could also look towards the US for an interim solution by expanding the US pipeline, similar to Germany.

The F-2s and more importantly F-2Bs will likely still be around long after GCAP just for this purpose. The F-4EJ was supposed to retire long before it did and the RF-4E and RF-4EJ were still flying around until better recon platforms. Same with the RF-86F until the the RF-4EJ came along. There is also the chance that with how advanced 6th gen is seemingly getting, GCAP could have a training mode with AI safety features in place to act as trainers without needed a second seat.
Oh, I see. Interesting point. I've got reminded about JASDF plan to expand into 430-fighters fleet from the few years ago.

Any Hawk platform is unlikely based on how its heading in the UK. For off the shelf solutions the M-346 seems the most likely.
By Red Hawk I've meant Boeing /SAAB T-7A, not BAE Hawk.
 
I completely forgot about this thread, but the T-4 replacement is starting to be finalized with the US and Japan joint developing a new trainer for both nations.

Not much is known on who the companies will be or what the final product will look like. Alert5 speculates it's based on the T-7A, but I think it's unlikely as the US announced it's ATT requirement outside of the Red Hawk procurement around 2021 when Japan was recruiting companies for T-4 development. The design will likely be a clean sheet one with Kawasaki as the front runner for the program. MHI is busy with GCAP and Fuji-Subaru is busy with the UH-2 and unmanned drones. Kawasaki also released that they were planning turbo fans and turbo jets for manned aircraft in the future.
1711489646577.png


The US side is more iffy. Almost every company is caught up in some kind of trainer program for the original TX to replace the T-38. However the original article about the ATT program says the LM might not offer the T-50 for ATT and develop a new airframe for the program.

On the actual airframe to be used I've seen people speculate that old MT-X designs could be used and updated. One of the most radical and interesting speculation I've seen is that the ATD-X could be revived and simplified for the program due to the need for a 5th gen flight profile.
 
The US side is more iffy. Almost every company is caught up in some kind of trainer program for the original TX to replace the T-38. However the original article about the ATT program says the LM might not offer the T-50 for ATT and develop a new airframe for the program.
Well, we know there's one company who dropped out early from T-X with a design that is quite robust with decades of lineage behind it, which at the same time was merely a demo prototype (strictly speaking, it wasn't even NG aircraft but of SC, although SC is their subsidiary so I guess it also works both ways) and has a lot of development work that needs to be done before going into production (which would also mean more room for Japanese participation).

Also, from my very personal obsession with that family of design, I think model 400 is too good looking to just get burried in the history amongst other "could've been designs".

Talking about LM, that was one of their consideration in the early days of ATT (and Tactical Surrogate programme), but soon made up their mind that that's not worth when there already is a robust design in T-50. Now their focus is TF-50 with KAI.
 

It's now confirmed that the US and Japan are jointly doing a trainer after todays summit.
 
Shouldn't the news items on the new US-Japanese trainer should go here rather than languishing in the AH section?
 
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