Regia Aeronautica Long Range Bomber Competition - 1938

[Antonio]

Six long range bomber designs were submited in 1938 to the Regia Aeronautica RFP

http://avia.russian.ee/air/italy/piaggio_p-108.html


CANT Z-1014 (winner design)
Caproni Ca-204 (4 engined)
Caproni Ca-211 (3 engined)
FIAT G-30B
Piaggio P-112 (development of P-108 with Piaggio P.XXII engines)
SAI S-404 (based on the Stipa formula)

At the end, the Z-1014 was not purchased and the P.108 became the only heavy bomber to be produced.

S-404 Scan courtesy of Lark

Can anybody post a pic from the Z-1014?. I have no info about it

 

[lark]

The information about the impresive CANT Z-1014 will be on
your desk by the end of next week.

Source : Aviation International Magazine No 702 - March 31 1977.

 

[Antonio]

Thank you very much!

 

[raravia]

Lark

i want to see this cant z.1014 too, because i know it won the competence against the Piaggio P.108, but his cost was the double of expensive to build up.I read they build just an mock up.

There´s a lot of italian aircraft unknown actually, built and non built, for instance I´ve had years trying to find a fighter wich name is Bestelli-Nardi BN-1 wich have double fuselage, but the only photograph i´ve seen is very blurred.

Any help will be pleasured

I mean if its no problem...

And before i left again, i´m going to put an aircraft unknown for the majority, the Cantz.1011 and the Piaggio helicopter. Soor but i just have the photograph, but no information.

Gracias

Fabián

 

[elmayerle]

I, too, would like to see information on the CANT Z.1014. It sounds like a most interesting aircraft.

 

[Antonio]

As soon as I'll receive the letter from Lark, I'll scan it and I'll post here to share it with everybody.
Lark, my Friend, it seems that sooner or later, you'll have to buy the scanner ;D

 

[lark]

Dear All,
Complete article (3pages) will be send to Pometabla
my Friend for years...
Article is from the French magazine Aviation International
(sadly ,this excellent mag. exist no longer)
Question: Is it possible to post a bit text with the illustrations.
An illustration is fine, but with a bit background history
it will be much more interesting I think...
A lot is still to discover about Italian might have beens Raravia
but it's a good idea start with the search here...
(Scanner is delayed,my wife wants a complete new kitchen first with all the singin' and dancin' : ... )

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Hey, a scanner is £30-£100, thats hardly a few handles for the kitchen

 

[lark]

Thanks for the advice but kitchen
is only the first chapter

 

[lark]

Raravia,

Plane in your pic. is the Z.1010 five passenger cabin monoplane built
in 1935 for the Littorio Air Rally.
EngineeHavilland Gipsy-Major -130 h.p. Max.speed :130 m.p.h.

The Z.1011 was a two engined medium bomber for the Regia Aeronautica .Five prototypes built in 1935-36.
Power of the Issota -Fraschini Asso XI R.C.15 was far short for
satisfactory performence.
Planes used as personal transportmachines for high ranking officials.

 

[Antonio]

I have found "Caproni Aircraft 1910-1983" at the Caproni Museum in Italy. It is only 21 €!

http://www.museocaproni.it/book.html

It seems that no overseas sales service is available at the Museum Shop but I have friends in Bolzano and maybe I can get a copy. I still don't know if unbuilt projects are included but possibly the Ca.204 and Ca.211 are illustrated

 

[lark]

Dear Friend,

The book you mentioned is well produced but contains only
two projects.(1992 edition)

Caproni Ca.64 monoplane fighter of 1922 ,also known as the MC1.
(Monoplano Caccia) and the Ca.65 two engined monoplane heavy fighter or groundattack aircraft.....

 

[raravia]

Lark

he, he, he.....you´re right the kitchen is JUST the first thing you´ll have to buy for a woman, then will be clothes, a new couch, a new car and keep going and going...for ever

so go on dude...don´t worry, maybe for christmas

Saludos

Fabián

 

[Antonio]

Dear Gentlement,

The CANT Z-1014 is here thanks to Lark

 

[Antonio]

Source:

Un bombardier stratégique pour la Regia Aeronautica
Cinq projets avortés
AviMag 702
15-3-1977
Giancarlo Garello


Strategic Bomber was launched with the following requirements:

Range: 4000 Km
Max Speed: 500 Km/h
Crew: 8
Armament: 1 cannon + 6 machine guns
Bomb load: 2000 Kg

Valoration was a as follows:

SAI S-404 discarded because it low speed handling and maneuverability was not promising

Ca-211 was not suited to requirement because of the 3 engined formula

Ca-204 engines (IFL 180) were judged to need a long development work

Fiat G-30B had unsatisfactory max speed



In parallel there was also issued a Strategic Bomber Flying Boat

Requirements:

Range: 5000 Km
Max Speed: 430 Km/h
Crew: 6
Armament: 1 cannon + 6 machine guns
Bomb load: 2000 Kg

Submitted designs:

CANT Z-512 (A Z-1014 derivative)

Piaggio P-114 (A P-112 derivative)

CANT Z-1014, Caproni Ca-204 and CANT Z-512 were selected for prototype construction


By its own iniciative, Piaggio worked on The P.112, based on its P.108 when the requierement was issued so they were able to submit the P.114 flying boat. The P.112 had Piaggio P-XII which were more powerful than the P-XI in the P.108.

Italian authorities considered several questions before giving green light to the definitive purchase of a new strategic bomber

1. Experience with 4 engined Piaggio P.50 with Piaggio P-XI engines had been negative

2. A reengined P.108 with Piaggio P XXI engines could have equal if not surpase the Z.1014 expected performance.

3. The Z.1014 was far more expensive than the P.108

4. Development schedule for such an aircraft was necesary long and Regia Aeronautica couldn't wait for it.


Thus, it was decided to study another options:

1. Piaggio P.123 ( a development from P.23R) but it was a 3 engined design

2. Piaggio P.133 (studied at Piaggio as a P.108 replacement) which had also a long development process ahead

3. Boeing B-17. Politicaly uncertain...

4. Piaggio P.108 with Piaggio P XII engines

The P.108/P XII option was finaly selected and this is how the story ends.

Regards,

Antonio in collaboration with Lark



Aditional info and pictures on Italian unbuilt heavy bombers here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46688

http://www.tgplanes.com/Public/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1077

 

[hesham]

There is anther three competitions for regia aeronautica I don't know most
of theirs contenders;

the first; single seat fighter :Macchi MC-300,Fiat G-58, Piaggio P-125,
Reggiane Re-2005.

The second; twin engined fighter reconnaissance :Fiat CR-25,Romeo Ro-53,
Caproni Ca-150,Ca-162 and Ca-401.

The third; twin-engined heavy fighter :Breda Ba.88bis,Ba.94,Caproni Ca.153,
Ca.154,Ca.155 and Ca.156 and Jona J-11.

 

[Skybolt]

The first competition was for a heavy fighter. The MC-300 was a twin-fuselage Mc-205, the G-58 a twin fuselage G-55, the Re-2005 was infact a twin fuselage Re-2005 longer than the original. Here a nice isometric view of those three aircraft, plus an alternative design od the Re-2005. They came from here.. go there, dowload, and start salivating...
http://cmeunier.chez-alice.fr/index.htm#A1

 

[Archibald]

You mean : they come from Tophe, magician of zwilling aircrafts ;D

 

[Skybolt]

Sure!

 

[Tophe]

Thanks dear you all... :-*

 

[Archibald]

;D

 

[Skybolt]

I knew I had it, problem was were... From Aerofan/64 First Quarter 1998

Piaggio P-112

Also, actually, the CANT proposal didn't cost twice as much of the Piaggio one. The two were similar in price. When RA announced that Cant had won, Piaggio slashed the price by half... RA was tempted.. At the end, the Piaggio aircraft ended to cost two times the tendered price.. Draw your conclusions..

Also, in the P-108 - P-112 - P-133 evolution, all medium altitude heavy bombers, there was an interesting detour, the pressurized P-130. But this I'll post in a new topic

 

[Antonio]

Piaggio P.114 long range floatplane bomber

 

[elmayerle]

Piaggio P.114 long range floatplane bomber

Whoa!! A P.108 on floats. Now that'd be something different to do with the Special Hobbies kit.

 

[Justo Miranda]

CANT Z.1014

Drawings by Chuck Davis

 

[Antonio]

Topics merged

 

[Maveric]

Mmmmhhhh, ;D Thanks my friend Justo Miranda.

A great aircraft!
Do you have also such drawing for the Z.1016? And some technical data?

Servus Maveric

 

[airman]

oh , good job Justo !

 

[archipeppe]

Many, many thanks Justo!!!

This new material is really outstanding, by since I never had the chanche to appreciate the Z 1014's architecture before....

 

[Skybolt]

since I never had the chanche to appreciate the Z 1014's architecture before....

Because you persist in not reading Aerofan, Peppe... and the Ufficio Storico dell'Aeronautica publications...
The 1016 was a proposed single engine derivative of the 1015, intended in 1938 to gain the non-stop flight distance record. The engine had to be a 1400 HP unit, not defined. The proposal was rejected.
The 1014 was proposed in floatplane version, too, as CANT Z.512. I have a profile, anyone interested ?

 

[archipeppe]

Because you persist in not reading Aerofan, Peppe... and the Ufficio Storico dell'Aeronautica publications...

You're right Skybolt!!

Mea culpa....mea culpa....mea culpa....

 

[Justo Miranda]

quote]
I have a profile, anyone interested ?
[/quote]

I am interested !
mea culpa , etc...

 

[Skybolt]

;D
This evening I'll post.

 

[Skybolt]

Here:
It was proposed for the Idrovolante a Grande Raggio of 1938. Ordered as a prototype in June 1939, but cancelled in September due to the re-issuing of the original competition specs. Was intended with four Alfa Romeo 135 RC40.

 

[Justo Miranda]

many thanks !

 

[archipeppe]

Here:
It was proposed for the Idrovolante a Grande Raggio of 1938. Ordered as a prototype in June 1939, but cancelled in September due to the re-issuing of the original competition specs. Was intended with four Alfa Romeo 135 RC40.

Many thanks Skybolt.

It's interesting to note that the Zappata's design is clearly recognizible....

 

[lark]

Great !

Many thanks Sky...

 

[Skybolt]

It's interesting to note that the Zappata's design is clearly recognizible....

That's why he preferred the floats solution for hydros: conversion was easy. Even the Can Z-511, which apparently had not a terrestrial counterpart, really is the root of the Bz-305-306-308-408 series. Just remove the floats... This is a Zappata's trademark. He did the same in the multi-engined projects he drought for Agusta.

 

[Maveric]

Great....!

Thanks Skybolt!

 

[hesham]

Anther drawings to Caproni Ca.204 and Ca.211 projects.