Rearming the UK: What equipment? and how much?

timmymagic said:
A jet powered British Harpy anyone?

Turns out this OWA that some people thought was a Ukrainian Palyayntsia missile was in fact a British drone called the Modini Dart 250....
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The Palyanytsia is actually a cruise missile IMO given its 3.4kN engine (10% more than a Tomahawk engine), you don't need that kind of power for twatting about at drone speeds.
 
bob225 said:
We're screwed, Labour have a great history of stopping programs iirc.

Tempest will be shelved, no more F-35 or Typhoon, small number of inappropriate replacements for Puma, One of the carriers sold or mothballed.

I hope not but....
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...one could wait until there are actual facts rather than this sort of "the sky is falling" commentary.
 
GTX said:
...one could wait until there are actual facts rather than this sort of "the sky is falling" commentary.
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You are totally right, i was just spouting rubbish, i'm hoping that given the world we live in programs will continue.

lets hope the defence review is positive and the money is made available
 
ABC-Spain 12/09/2024
Updated at 7:37 p.m.

1

Fourteen thousand preventable deaths a year. That's the figure highlighted by the Royal College of Emergency Medicine as the human cost of long waits in the public health service (NHS) emergency department in the UK. A devastating number that encapsulates the critical state of the country's health system, on the verge of collapse, and which is the central theme of a new report commissioned by the government from Lord Ara Darzi, a world-renowned surgeon and former head of Health. Their diagnosis leaves no room for doubt: the system is badly damaged, and the lack of investment since the 2010s has left the NHS in a position of deep vulnerability.
 
Justo Miranda said:
the lack of investment since the 2010s has left the NHS in a position of deep vulnerability.
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The lack of funds since the banks screwed up on an epic scale and needed bailing out.... Fixing the problem requires some pain in the short term, which is decades.
 
Forest Green said:
The lack of funds since the banks screwed up on an epic scale and needed bailing out.... Fixing the problem requires some pain in the short term, which is decades.
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We should all learn from the Italians: they charge a pizzo of two euros for every coin that tourists throw into the Trevi Fountain.
 
maritime-executive.com

Shipyard Sale Expected as Harland & Wolff is Insolvent, Sets Administration

For the second time in five years, the parent company of famed shipbuilder Harland & Wolff is heading for administration with the board confirming the...
maritime-executive.com maritime-executive.com

It appears that the current and previous governments were quite correct in withholding 200 million pounds of taxpayer money. The real question is whether Fleet Solid Support is going to get officially cut with the upcoming defense review. The 60% domestic UK content figure looks unworkable at this point and the RFA can’t man a single solid support ship let alone 3. Since the inception of FSS, two elderly Fort class ships were sold to Egypt, the 2 Wave class are laid up for eventually disposal and 1 Tide class is laid up, one is being overhauled and 2 are operational. It is doubtful that Fort Victoria can be crewed for the 2025 aircraft carrier deployment or will ever go to sea again. Even if the ongoing RFA strike is resolved, there is no guarantee that any settlement, no matter how favorable, will encourage enough RFA recruiting to cover the current fleet, let alone 3 FSS units.
 
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ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Government announce huge changes to armed forces recruitment

Labour say that over the last ten years, more than one million applied to join the British armed forces but most gave up due to delays.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk

  1. Scrapping 100 outdated policies that currently block people from joining the military.
  2. Setting new targets for the Forces to reject or make a conditional offer to applicants within 10 days, and to give people a training start date within 30 days.
  3. Introducing a direct recruitment route for cyber specialists, particularly targeting top gamers and coders. “If you are a top gamer or coder, your country needs you,” Healey said.
 
A lot so summarise and it's a summary anyway. I'll comment on a point or two.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Defence Review 2024 – There will be cuts, but what’s going?

The UK's 'Global Britain' ambition is at risk, with the military facing severe cutbacks and equipment shortages leaving the nation ill-prepared for growing global conflicts.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk

The Type 31 is also hopefully safe, although the follow-up Type 32 programme could now be further at risk or delayed well into the future as it’s unlikely to be considered a priority by the new government. Likewise, the proposed Type 45 replacement (Type 83 destroyers) are nothing more than an idea on a drawing board in reality, meaning they could also face the axe.

Mostly agree. The Type 32 requirement is uncertain, with some expecting it to be just a Type 31 Batch 2. Some have angled it as a drone mothership. If that's the case, and if (yes, two ifs in one sentence, so take with abundant salt) the MRSS is much like Steller Systems' Fearless concept (below), which has significant drone support capability, the Type 32 as drone support becomes redundant. The number of frigates though needs to increase, so Type 32 may likely be Type 31 Batch 2, maybe just not as many as planned.

Note this too:

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Britain actively pursuing buyers for new frigate

Efforts are being made in conjunction with the Department of Business and Trade to support export campaigns for the Type 31 Frigate.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk

The Type 45 will need to be replaced and while the Type 83 is an idea at this stage, it's requirement is imperative for fleet defence - especially ballistic missile defence. How much capacity do the Type 45s have for upgrades in capability?

Tempest/GCAP may face further delays, with anticipated entry to service currently set for 2035. However, this relies as much on the UK’s internal politics as it is on the two significant collaborators, Japan and Italy.

Actually I'm fairly confident about GCAP. There may be delays (almost certainly), but without second-guessing the review, the Starmer government has repeated expressed commitment to it. Again, it's needed, and as an international project with attendant political commitments, and with Japan at least very much in need of it to counter China, backtracking is very unlikely.

The Johnson government wanted to prioritise space and cyber over the army on the rationale that as a Western European island nation, ground-based defence was less of a priority - not considering obligations with allies and force projection. Possibly the review will have similar priorities if they have to choose between the awful and the catastrophic.

My guess is that the army will lose the most.

Note also point 3 in my previous post - recruitment is targeting cyber specialists.
 

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Rhinocrates said:
ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Government announce huge changes to armed forces recruitment

Labour say that over the last ten years, more than one million applied to join the British armed forces but most gave up due to delays.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk

  1. Scrapping 100 outdated policies that currently block people from joining the military.
  2. Setting new targets for the Forces to reject or make a conditional offer to applicants within 10 days, and to give people a training start date within 30 days.
  3. Introducing a direct recruitment route for cyber specialists, particularly targeting top gamers and coders. “If you are a top gamer or coder, your country needs you,” Healey said.
Click to expand...
Sounds good
 
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Hopefully something positive and not doom laden from todays budget...

Rachel Reeves will announce almost £3bn more from the armed forces in the budget, the Telegraph is reporting. In their story Nick Gutteridge and Danielle Sheridan say:

[The chancellor’s] decision will end fears that defence will bear the brunt of the “difficult decisions” she says are needed to fix the public finances. It will mean the proportion of national wealth spent on the military will decline slightly but remain roughly stable at 2.3 per cent of GDP.
Part of the extra cash is expected to be used to cover the £400 million a year cost of giving soldiers a six per cent pay rise, backdated to April.
The money will also fund the purchase of weapons to replenish stockpiles that have been depleted by arms supplies to Ukraine …
It is understood the £2.9 billion injection will be a one-off while the government conducts a wider review into future defence spending.
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timmymagic said:
Hopefully something positive and not doom laden from todays budget...
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When I first saw it yesterday I thought that it might be indeed a rare ray of light. Then I noticed that the figure quoted is the exact amount that Starmer just recently pledged to the Ukraine. I fear that there may a classic switch and bait ploy in play here.
 
Grey Havoc said:
When I first saw it yesterday I thought that it might be indeed a rare ray of light. Then I noticed that the figure quoted is the exact amount that Starmer just recently pledged to the Ukraine. I fear that there may a classic switch and bait ploy in play here.
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It's definitely totally seperate.
 
timmymagic said:
It's definitely totally seperate.
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A budget day report by the Office for Budget Responsibility found that even with the £3 billion, defence spending would remain flat. However, the government apparently 'forgot' to tell the OBR beforehand that the Treasury is treating the latest Ukrainian aid as part of the core defence budget (that emerged late yesterday evening). So the defence budget in effect has actually seen a decline.
 
www.gov.uk

Major defence reforms launched, with new National Armaments Director to tackle waste and boost industry

The biggest reform of the Ministry of Defence in over 50 years to fix what the Public Accounts Committee calls the ‘broken’ defence procurement system and to strengthen UK Defence, has been launched by the Defence Secretary.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

A little extra detail on the UK Government pages.
Also another reform:
The reforms will also see the Chief of the Defence Staff overseeing a new Military Strategic Headquarters (MSHQ) where he will formally command the individual Service Chiefs for the first time. They will now be central to investment decisions between the Services, along with the Defence Secretary and Permanent Secretary.
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Rhinocrates said:
A lot so summarise and it's a summary anyway. I'll comment on a point or two.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Defence Review 2024 – There will be cuts, but what’s going?

The UK's 'Global Britain' ambition is at risk, with the military facing severe cutbacks and equipment shortages leaving the nation ill-prepared for growing global conflicts.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk

The Type 31 is also hopefully safe, although the follow-up Type 32 programme could now be further at risk or delayed well into the future as it’s unlikely to be considered a priority by the new government. Likewise, the proposed Type 45 replacement (Type 83 destroyers) are nothing more than an idea on a drawing board in reality, meaning they could also face the axe.

Mostly agree. The Type 32 requirement is uncertain, with some expecting it to be just a Type 31 Batch 2. Some have angled it as a drone mothership. If that's the case, and if (yes, two ifs in one sentence, so take with abundant salt) the MRSS is much like Steller Systems' Fearless concept (below), which has significant drone support capability, the Type 32 as drone support becomes redundant. The number of frigates though needs to increase, so Type 32 may likely be Type 31 Batch 2, maybe just not as many as planned.

Note this too:

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Britain actively pursuing buyers for new frigate

Efforts are being made in conjunction with the Department of Business and Trade to support export campaigns for the Type 31 Frigate.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk

The Type 45 will need to be replaced and while the Type 83 is an idea at this stage, it's requirement is imperative for fleet defence - especially ballistic missile defence. How much capacity do the Type 45s have for upgrades in capability?

Tempest/GCAP may face further delays, with anticipated entry to service currently set for 2035. However, this relies as much on the UK’s internal politics as it is on the two significant collaborators, Japan and Italy.

Actually I'm fairly confident about GCAP. There may be delays (almost certainly), but without second-guessing the review, the Starmer government has repeated expressed commitment to it. Again, it's needed, and as an international project with attendant political commitments, and with Japan at least very much in need of it to counter China, backtracking is very unlikely.

The Johnson government wanted to prioritise space and cyber over the army on the rationale that as a Western European island nation, ground-based defence was less of a priority - not considering obligations with allies and force projection. Possibly the review will have similar priorities if they have to choose between the awful and the catastrophic.

My guess is that the army will lose the most.

Note also point 3 in my previous post - recruitment is targeting cyber specialists.
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Kit is only one factor. This a golden opportunity to reset nearly 80 years of post war illusions.

Joint

Shoot all the sacred cows and let the crows roost
Cut all colonel and colonel plus roles by at least a third
End the black economy for staffing VSO'S staffs
One officer and recruit training establishment
One uniform
Bin all ceremonial units and public duties
all rotary army
all fixed air
Sell all the real estate we don't need.



Maritime
Bin the carriers and focus on escorts and submarines
Think Netherlands not WW1 fleet parity
Move RM to land

Air
All cyber, air defence and air transport
cap F35 at 72vor whatever we haven't agreed to buy
Make tempest a commercial project. BAE and partners to fun fully. Payment on delivery


Land
1/3rd heavy, 1/3rd mech and 1/3rd light
Bin public duties

Summary

Its time to be really realistic. We are a medium sized European nation not Russia, China or the US.
 
The UK is never going to be Austria, or Belgium and those who fantasise about such an outcome be as unrealistic as any who think in terms of the USA.

But currently it is irrelevant. The current Elite cannot do anything but continue the postwar concensus of Managed Decline.
When that elite is cycled out and a new one in, then changes may happen......assuming the cycling is not taken advantage of by outside interests.
 
I would look at what we do well and what we do badly compared with others.

RN

We are the only Western country apart from France to build and operate SSBNs and SSNs . We have done a pretty good job of working closely with the US (and France). A force of 4 SSBNs and up to 10 SSN should be the primary UK contribution.

The carriers were a political purchase and too many compromises were made in their design. They have unbalanced the surface fleet which has a wide and varied role in war and peace. Disposing of them, however, would no longer solve this problem. On the plus side they are floating airbases for F35s, AH64s, UAVs, Merlins and Chinooks. One should be kept available at all times with the other being sorted out.
The T45s have had a lengthy get well process. Six such ships is more than any non US Navy except Japan has been able to deploy Like the US CG52s they can be refurbed again and again.
Twelve frigates is again more than most Western navies can deploy. These should be as high end as we can afford.

Royal Marines/Special Forces/Paras

Highly trained infantry is what the UK does best. But dividing them up into small Brigade size specialties is an expensive way of doing it.

One of the three brigade sized groups needs to go. The SAS/SBS are irreplacable in a dangerous world.
So either the Royal Marines or Airborne/Air mobile forces would be my choice.
Three Royal Marine Commandos are now difficult to deploy by sea. They are as likely to arrive by RAF or BA as from an RN ship. A regeneration capacity one or two Commando force would reflect this.

The Army is the hardest force to dissect. The constant reorganisation, amalgamation and disbandment of regiments has reduced it to a small, confusing and confused force.

Other W European countries are much better placed to operate modern mechanised or armoured formations with adequate artillery and other supporting arms. The UK should reduce these to a cadre for regeneration if circumstances warrant. Instead we should focus on rapidly deployable infantry with rotary aircraft and UAVs.

The RAF has more or less reduced to a cadre of combat roles (Typhoons, F35s, P8s). This is correct as the UK is furthest away of W European countries and RN SSBNs and SSN are a more effective means of deploying long range conventional (SLCM) and nuclear (Trident) missiles.
Air Defence of the UK however must be re examined in the light of Russia's air campaign in Ukraine.
 

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