Re-equipping the Red Arrows . . .

If they de-militarize them as suggested above and de-activate the afterburners in most of the airframe but their solo display, probably not that much.
 
The RAF has decided that fast jet training can be done with a small number of jets given the fewer pilots, better prop aircraft, and greater simulator use in training. I'd still buy more Hawk 128s to keep the small fleet secure.

We could keep the best 10 Hawks as spares for the Reds but that is really kicking the can down the road. Eventually they have to be replaced. A lot of museums would like a Hawk for display.

The early Tranche 1 Typhoons are being retired. These have plenty of lifetime on the airframes and should be good until 2040 as many had the SLEP. Look at the costs of keeping 12 (or less) of those, without weapons, for the Reds. Should be no problem regarding commonality of parts and their pilots will have the same skills.
A couple of them could be the Solo Display aircraft which takes pressure off the regular squadrons.
www.raf.mod.uk

RAF Typhoon flies the flag over iconic white cliffs ahead of Battle of Britain Anniversary | Royal Air Force

The RAF Typhoon Display team have retraced the footsteps of the heroic Battle of Britain pilots, known as the 'The Few,' by flying over the white cliffs of the southern British coastline ahead of the anniversary of
www.raf.mod.uk www.raf.mod.uk

If we go down the route of buying special aircraft purely for the display team then it might as well be privatised. In which case it's not an RAF thing and is pointless. I certainly wouldn't trust a brand new unflown design for a high dynamic aerobatic demo role.

Or there's this :D
Red Barrows
 
Nick said:
The RAF has decided that fast jet training can be done with a small number of jets given the fewer pilots, better prop aircraft, and greater simulator use in training. I'd still buy more Hawk 128s to keep the small fleet secure.

We could keep the best 10 Hawks as spares for the Reds but that is really kicking the can down the road. Eventually they have to be replaced. A lot of museums would like a Hawk for display.

The early Tranche 1 Typhoons are being retired. These have plenty of lifetime on the airframes and should be good until 2040 as many had the SLEP. Look at the costs of keeping 12 (or less) of those, without weapons, for the Reds. Should be no problem regarding commonality of parts and their pilots will have the same skills.
A couple of them could be the Solo Display aircraft which takes pressure off the regular squadrons.
www.raf.mod.uk

RAF Typhoon flies the flag over iconic white cliffs ahead of Battle of Britain Anniversary | Royal Air Force

The RAF Typhoon Display team have retraced the footsteps of the heroic Battle of Britain pilots, known as the 'The Few,' by flying over the white cliffs of the southern British coastline ahead of the anniversary of
www.raf.mod.uk www.raf.mod.uk

If we go down the route of buying special aircraft purely for the display team then it might as well be privatised. In which case it's not an RAF thing and is pointless. I certainly wouldn't trust a brand new unflown design for a high dynamic aerobatic demo role.

Or there's this :D
Red Barrows
Click to expand...
The RCAF's SNOWBIRDS aerobatic team has highly-specialized jets that are not used anywhere else. They still fly 1960s vintage Canadair Tutor jet trainers. The RCAF retired Tutors from their pilot training program many years ago. They have been replaced by a mixture of Harvard II (Beechcraft built version of a Pilatus turboprop plane) and Hawk jets.
 
riggerrob said:
Nick said:
The RAF has decided that fast jet training can be done with a small number of jets given the fewer pilots, better prop aircraft, and greater simulator use in training. I'd still buy more Hawk 128s to keep the small fleet secure.

We could keep the best 10 Hawks as spares for the Reds but that is really kicking the can down the road. Eventually they have to be replaced. A lot of museums would like a Hawk for display.

The early Tranche 1 Typhoons are being retired. These have plenty of lifetime on the airframes and should be good until 2040 as many had the SLEP. Look at the costs of keeping 12 (or less) of those, without weapons, for the Reds. Should be no problem regarding commonality of parts and their pilots will have the same skills.
A couple of them could be the Solo Display aircraft which takes pressure off the regular squadrons.
www.raf.mod.uk

RAF Typhoon flies the flag over iconic white cliffs ahead of Battle of Britain Anniversary | Royal Air Force

The RAF Typhoon Display team have retraced the footsteps of the heroic Battle of Britain pilots, known as the 'The Few,' by flying over the white cliffs of the southern British coastline ahead of the anniversary of
www.raf.mod.uk www.raf.mod.uk

If we go down the route of buying special aircraft purely for the display team then it might as well be privatised. In which case it's not an RAF thing and is pointless. I certainly wouldn't trust a brand new unflown design for a high dynamic aerobatic demo role.

Or there's this :D
Red Barrows
Click to expand...
The RCAF's SNOWBIRDS aerobatic team has highly-specialized jets that are not used anywhere else. They still fly 1960s vintage Canadair Tutor jet trainers. The RCAF retired Tutors from their pilot training program many years ago. They have been replaced by a mixture of Harvard II (Beechcraft built version of a Pilatus turboprop plane) and Hawk jets.
Click to expand...
But those were in service trainers in Canada and wewre placed in storage for future use by the Snowbirds. The parts and "knowledge" to support them still exists. As such, I would not describe them as highly specialize, at least in comparison to an aircraft that has yet fly let alone placed in service.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Red Arrows should use the Eurofighter Typhoon. That'd look awesome. Running costs would be higher of course.
Click to expand...
7b885fcf88fa577c4f4d2aa0eadf8865.jpg
 
Grey Havoc said:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Faulty French parts blamed for RAF jet engine failures

Hawk aircraft used to train fighter pilots for combat removed from service due to fault
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
Click to expand...
The Hawk Mk.2 is used by the RAF for advanced fighter pilot training at RAF Valley, Anglesey. The Mark 2 is a newer version of the original Hawk T. Mk.1 jet, which is still flown by the Red Arrows. The compressor fan problem does not affect the Red Arrows’ aircraft, which use a different version of the Adour engine.
Click to expand...
 
I recall that the Red Arrow Hawks during the Cold War had Sidewinder points fitted so they could join the "Home Guard" Hawks assigned to UK Air Defence.
Perhaps a frontline F35 squadron could dual role with the Red Arrows? It would reinforce the idea that the Arrows are not just for show but pilots with a wartime role as well.
One day they might even visit Kiyv and salute President Zelensky and his gallant country.
 
Although more suited to the Bar, some alt Red Arrows in similar vein ...

www.britmodeller.com

What if... The Red Arrows was formed in WW2?

My local hobby store had a decent sale on so I figured, hey, let's pick up some Spitfires and tinkering around like a badger in mating season. I picked up two 1/72 Hobby Boss Spitfire MkVb/Trops to play with. One ended up on the trash bin after the cat spy ate my cockpit canopies. Quite rude and ...
www.britmodeller.com www.britmodeller.com

Spitfire ... https://m.facebook.com/groups/369348123237269/permalink/832941806877896/

Harrier ... https://m.facebook.com/groups/369348123237269/permalink/1252546614917411/

Lightning ... https://m.facebook.com/groups/369348123237269/permalink/1252547214917351/

Typhoon ... https://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=87553&start=25

Hawk T.2 ...

... and just for giggles, Grumman X-29 ... https://ecardmodels.com/product/1-50-grumman-f-29-what-if-red-arrows-paper-model
 
Last edited:
Tangentially on this subject, in a 1989 Air Force Board Standing Committee Paper on the subject of wartime Hawk basing the armed T1A was referred to as TF1A.
It's the only time I've seen it written this way. It could be a typo but this an AFBSC paper so you assume it would be accurate, one could speculate in wartime, if there was time/inclination, they may well have been redesignated TF1A as they would be bone fide fighters.
 
uk 75 said:
I recall that the Red Arrow Hawks during the Cold War had Sidewinder points fitted so they could join the "Home Guard" Hawks assigned to UK Air Defence.
Click to expand...
That's odd, I know that the standard Hawks could carry Sidewinders, but never knew the Red Arrows' ones could as well. Do you have any more information or photos?

Edit: Also at this point, the most logical option would be to keep the Hawk T.1s until about 2030, then decide on what to do with the entire Hawk fleet. If the T.1s are binned prior to that date, they can use T.2s (or Typhoons). What comes after really depends on when the Hawk is replaced and the aircraft which replaces it. All of this is opinion and speculation of course.
 
TomcatViP said:
Perhaps they can re-equip them with the just discarded C-130j.
Let's admit that a formation takeoff with Jato would be something!
Click to expand...
A la Fat Albert I suppose. It's an interesting idea, I guess it could be done like what the Blue Angles do and ferry around the spare parts for the aircraft, as well as being a display aircraft in of itself.
uk 75 said:
An RAF Red Hawk with Sidewinders
Click to expand...
Beautiful photo! Never thought I'd see one like it!
 
Jason Dykstra (Wyvern) said:
uk 75 said:
I recall that the Red Arrow Hawks during the Cold War had Sidewinder points fitted so they could join the "Home Guard" Hawks assigned to UK Air Defence.
Click to expand...
That's odd, I know that the standard Hawks could carry Sidewinders, but never knew the Red Arrows' ones could as well. Do you have any more information or photos?

Edit: Also at this point, the most logical option would be to keep the Hawk T.1s until about 2030, then decide on what to do with the entire Hawk fleet. If the T.1s are binned prior to that date, they can use T.2s (or Typhoons). What comes after really depends on when the Hawk is replaced and the aircraft which replaces it. All of this is opinion and speculation of course.
Click to expand...
I maybe making this up, but wasnt it only half the hawks that were wired up?
 
May I add my two pennorth to this debate and present something which came from my childhood. Like many an aviation minded youngster I joined the Air Training Corps. For one of the annual model competitions, I presented a three ship which was entitled 'The Red Arrows Past, Present and Future'. Past obviously the Gnat, present the Hawk and for something completely different this beauty for the future! Red Arrows Angel Interceptor.jpg
 
I do not reckon drones would be a display team tbh. You may as well watch the other Hawk variety. The feathered type.
 
Nothing stopping the RAF getting the PC 21, via a third party training company, as is the fashion these days.
 
It depends on whether you want a secondary air defence role for the aircraft. Point defence as some Hawks have done.

That and why buy from someone else if you can kep the dosh within the UK, supporting jobs here etc.
 
id say the secondary defence role is pretty much more mouth than practise; if the enemy are that close, you are down to the aeronautical equivalent of pickaxe handles.
 

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