Ratel replacement projects

JAZZ said:
While this thread is seems to be attracting some intrest, and a liitle off topic does anyone have further information on MC-90 project. I have taken a poor black/white photo and turned it into a colour one (not sure if thats made it beter or worse). But it shows a small recon vehicle armed with 90mm gun. A replacement for the Panhard AML90? vehcile.

As far as I know, the MC-90 was a private venture aimed at replacing the Eland90 (AML90). It was based on Unimog components, which were used in various guises in the SADF including the thousands of Buffels built. It seems to be from the late 1980's when the Rooikat with it's 8x8 format and much more powerful main armament was around, which is why it probably did't go anywhere further. It mounts what looks to be a standard Eland90 or Ratel 90 turret.

The prototype (or one of them) is still in existence at Bloemfontein armour museum, although it is in very poor condition.
 

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An interesting series of vehicles, one of which was labelled Ratel B with 30mm cannon. I have no idea of the providence of the designs unfortunately.
 

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Moving on to the iKlwa. This is a relatively recently unveiled vehicle which is a very deep and complete modernisation of the Ratel. It can be rebuilt from existing vehicles or newly built. It appears to have only the basic Ratel shell left over, with new drivetrain, running gear with larger wheels, smaller more powerful engine moved to a similar position as the Ratel IV, and a redesigned top deck allowing very rapid reconfiguration including grenade launchers, 30 or 35 mm turret, mortar etc. It has improved armour and is a bigger vehicle weighing in around 25 tons, but with better speed. Below is the iKlwa Mk2. I have taken the liberty of quting a person from milphotos.net who has spoken to it's designer. Most interesting is his reference to the earlier Ratel replacement programme before the Patria.

Vorster
I asked one of the lead designers on the project a few questions on the project. Here is the basic gen. The Iklawa was designed in secret by OMC without the SANDF knowing.

During the IFV trails and tenders OMC (Now BAE Land Systems South Africa OMC) build two prototypes (not Iklawa, got a photo of the second hull at home) and even went as far as to do blast testing on the second. They were way ahead and had spent alot more money on their vehicle. Due to this the SANDF cancelled their part in the tender project all though their version was way better than the Patria. (This is the official reason but he believes corruption and inside dealing was the main cause). The SANDF said that the tender wasn't equal anymore.

OMC however knew that the Patria was going to be grossly overprised for what the army wanted and that the modular nature that it toted whould not become a reality due to the cost. So in secret they designed the IKLAWA, a ratel convertion that cost a 10th of a Hoefyster and can be changed from one configuration in less than an hour using an overhead crane and a few simple tools.

Iklawa is a basic ratel with it's hull and drive train upgraded. You take a standard ratel and you build an Iklawa. The engine is moved from the rear to the front, the tyres are larger and there is extra armor on the hull. The rear hull has been cut down to allow the instalation of a drop down ramp and the roof extensively modified. Now most of the photos seen on the net is of the mk 2 version. It has since gone into the mk 3 variant which looses the old ratel drivers compartment by cutting the hull back even further thus sinking the windows into the hull. The rear is also trimmed back more with that set of angles at the rear now being reduced to a single panel.

The roof panels come in three sections. By removing the rear or central panel and replacing it with a panel with a turret ring any damn turret you can think of can be fitted. I saw one with an old ratel 20 turret on it. The one shown at AAD was the basic IFV.

"I'd hazzard a guess that it is also offered as an refurbishment on existing Ratels (a rebuild), but would then not encompass the full iKlwa get-up, just providing the rear door and RWS, with some mechanical upgrades."

The Iklawa seen at AAD was build from an Ratel 20. It is not offered as a basic upgrade to the Ratel but rather starts life as a Ratel and becomes the Iklawa.

The SANDF and the rest of the world first knew of iklawa at AAD 2006 like the rest of us. They are seriously considering to buy Iklawa as they can get 10 vehicles for the price of one Hoefyster (this is the true figure if you look at the real cost of the vehicles) which is truely modular. (Bolt off one roof panel, bolt in another drop in a turret. Bolt off this panel, bolt on another drop in a mortar. That is how easy this vehicle converts)

For futher info wait for VEG no 10. There is a full article on the Iklawa in the magazine. I had a peek at it this weekend. It also has the vital specs of the vehicle.
 

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I am convinced that the pictures of two of the vehicles here represent test platforms of the Piranha and AMV entries for the Hoefyster programme and that they date to around 2004-6. Hoefyster has become renowned for being heavily delayed and the Armscor rules of the time make it very difficult to find confirmatory data in the open source as the bidders were banned from discussing their bids in any way.
 
A photo of a hull that had been blast tested as part of Ratel replacement programme. Labelled as tested for blast before Patria testing was begun.

I recall reading that a lot of configurations and vehicles were tested, so I imagine what we are seeing posted on this thread are certainly not all the vehicles and configurations tested from the mid 1980's onwards.
 

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I'm unsure whether this next project (AC-100) was related to initial studies during the 1980's to replace the Ratel, but it certainly illustrates the concept of vehicle families. Interestingly, and at the timescale of around 1986, all the usual Ratel turrets could be fitted, as well as a 76mm gun which had obviously come over from the Rooikat armoured car programme. The vehicle below is the AC-100, with the last image being of the AC-200 which, although considerably different, does seem to share some charateristics.

The axle arrangement is interesting as is the engine placement in that it mirrors Ratel upgrades 10 to 20 years later.
 

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Going over the pictures I was sent, I missed a couple about the 8x8 vehicle that was developed from Rooikat components.
Below is the side of the vehicle with plate. It seems this was manufactured in 1984/5 as a multi variant weapons platform. The vehicle looks identical to the small images posted as the Rooikat ICV.

The 6 hatches that Sealord pointed out does not seem to indicate definitely that only 6 troops could be carries, as the back seats appear to be bench type seats each accomodating 3 troops each for atotal then of around 8, which ties in neatly with the Ratel. I don't think the Ratel has a a hatch for every troop either. This appears though to be a basic concept vehicle, so any infantry carrier development would probably have been much refined and considerably different.

It appears the basic vehicle weighs in around 20 tons without turret or weapons, so would most likely have been around 30 odd tons when equipped.

Sealord, I also am a little intrigued with that Concept S vehicle. I wonder if these 2 vehicles are somehow connected, even though they look different enough.
 

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2 things that need to noted after some reflection:

1. The name Piranha is what these photo's were labelled as when I got them, but nowhere else, particularly not on the vehicle itself, is this name seen or mentioned.

2. After going through the photos again, it is obvious we are missing some vehicles. What hull is this for example???
 

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I cannot vouch for this following design or how serious it was/is taken, but from the name it appears to be an 8X8 Ratel derivative, of which this is the second version. Once more, like the iKlwa and the Ratel Mk2, a mid-mounted engine replaces the original rear mounted one.
 

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kaiserbill said:
I cannot vouch for this following design or how serious it was/is taken, but from the name it appears to be an 8X8 Ratel derivative, of which this is the second version. Once more, like the iKlwa and the Ratel Mk2, a mid-mounted engine replaces the original rear mounted one.

Looks like fan fiction. That turret is way to small to hold both a 120mm mortar and a 35mm gun. Other 'details' look pretty suspect.
 
Seems to be some visual similarities with the AC-100 and AC-200 and then Thyssen-Henschel Fuchspanzer. Possible West German collaboration during the 1980s with this project? Thyssen-Henschel was also involved with that 105mm 6x6 armoured car being developed with the South African whose name escapes me (TH-4000?)
 
Matt_Fisher said:
Seems to be some visual similarities with the AC-100 and AC-200 and then Thyssen-Henschel Fuchspanzer. Possible West German collaboration during the 1980s with this project? Thyssen-Henschel was also involved with that 105mm 6x6 armoured car being developed with the South African whose name escapes me (TH-4000?)

Yes, what appears to be a TH-400 was offered as an entrant into the Rooikat competition, but was not selected. There is what seems to me a slight difference between the TH-400 and the vehicle in the Rooikat trials over the rear decking and the hull/turret interface, but nothing serious. The vehicle can be viewed in the Rooikat thread, post #4 here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8913.0.html
 
Apparently the South Africans were after the automotive configurations of the candidate vehicles rather than the hulls. Consequently the finally selected AMV is heavily modified with substantial hull shaping based on South African experience. It is likely that a lot of what we have seen in this thread is test beds for the Piranha and AMV bids.
 
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Interesting info, Sealord, thanks. Did you get any other info, especially late 1980's vehicles?
 
The most detailed description so far I've been able to find about Hoefyster.

Note that Hoefyster was the Ratel replacement project from 1997, and so therefore does not cover the various indigeneous projects looked at before this date. Most of these projects were put on hold by the large funding cuts in the early 1990's.

Sorry for it's length but it is an interesting article nevertheless. It mentions a previous indigeneous 6X6 and 8X8 vehicle family I was not aware of called the "Honeyguide".

Project Hoefyster

Hoefyster was registered as a project in 1997. The awarding of a contract was announced by Public Enterprises minister Alec Erwin in his budget vote speech in the National Assembly on May 17, 2007. Not much seems to have happened in those first few years, arguably because the requirement was being defined and approved and because the funding was absent – much of the SA Army’s equipment budget were in those years diverted to the Strategic Defence Package acquisitions.

Early reports speculated that the MOWAG Piranha IV was a shoo-in for the deal, as OMC had then just been bought out by Vickers Defence Systems – a British concern – that had licensing rights to the Piranha IV. Counter-speculation at the time favoured the Piranha III, currently in use by the US Army as the Stryker armoured personnel carrier (APC).

News of local developments came at African Aerospace and Defence 2002, when LMT proposed a family of 6x6 and 8x8 vehicles built to a common design. LMT MD Dr Stefan Nell told the author the 8x8 would be the basis of the new ICV while the 6x6 variant – identical in all respects bar the fourth axle – would serve as armoured personnel carrier for the motorised infantry. As such it could then replace the aging Casspir and Mamba APCs. Both designs, dubbed “Honeyguide” after a local bird, made maximum use of commercial-off-the-shelf technology. An electric drive proposal was also on the cards. Nell was adamant that the Army preferred a local solution rather than an import.

The “Honeyguide” 8x8 would have carried eight soldiers in the rear. Its crew consisted of a driver on the front right with a vehicle commander directly behind. In the Denel LIW 35/50mm turret, prescribed by the Army for the project at the time, sits the gunner and section leader/platoon commander. The vehicle concept offered 7,62mm NATO AP protection all round and was planned to absorb 30mm rounds at a 15 degree angle at a range of 1500m. The vehicle would have been 14,5mm proof from the front. Talk at the show was that a decision on a preferred “Hoefyster” design to be further engineered and developed would be made in January 2003.

It is not clear such a decision was made. It appears that at least four domestic companies, including LMT, OMC and MDB were given seed money to develop prototypes. In early 2004 it was reported that the LMT design had victored. All were 8x8 designs designed to carry the Denel LCT35 turret. Scarcely had the news filtered out when the Army through its agent Armscor re-opened the competition and called on local and international companies to tender for the deal.

The Request for Proposals (RfP) was issued under the reference number MFT/2003/564 and asked eight South African companies and four international defence contractors to put forward ideas and quotes by February 25, 2005. Domestic companies asked to tender were state arms manufacturer Denel as well as private companies LMT, Benoni-based OMC, IST Dynamics, Industrial and Automotive Design SA, MDB, Advanced Technologies Engineering of Midrand, Grintron and Intertechnic. The four overseas contractors approached were GIAT Industries of France, Mowag Motorwagenfabrik AG of Switzerland and the pan-European Aeronautic, Defence and Space Company (EADS). The South African companies in particular were keen to bid and gladly showed off their ideas to selected journalists.

But, in February 2005, when the bids were due, only one was received, from a consortium involving Patria of Finland, Patria's part-owner, EADS, Denel, OMC and Land Mobility Technologies (LMT). The vehicle the group proposed was Patria's 8x8 Armoured Modular Vehicle (AMV), as redesigned for southern African conditions by LMT. The vehicle hulls were to be built by OMC and the turrets as well as guns would be provided by Denel.

So, what had happened? Questioned in 2005 about the paucity of bids, Department of Defence's (DoD) chief of acquisition and procurement, Bruce Ramfolo said the tender process followed on their behalf by Armscor was sound and "neither Armscor nor DoD are able to force any industry to participate." Ramfolo did not directly answer a question on why a foreign hull was preferred to a local design, saying instead that "no decision regarding the bid has been made and therefore no decision on the design has been made.”

Speaking around the same time, Strategic Defence Package critic, systems engineer and defence company MD Richard Young said the paucity of bids was disconcerting. It also appeared that potential competitors had been encouraged and "facilitated" to bid jointly. Asked whether there was something wrong with the DoD's tender process, Young said: "Yes, it's not constitutional." He explained that the White Paper on the South African Defence Related Industries of December 1999 said the constitution, in section 217, required that when organs of state contracted for goods or services, they must do so in accordance with national or provincial legislation that establishes a system which is fair, equitable, transparent, competitive and cost-effective. "At present defence acquisition is based more on balderdash, enrichment and expediency."

With the preference for a foreign product comes some spurious benefit. The project will be subject to countertrade as its value exceeds US10 million, the trigger-level for offsets or industrial participation. Part of the offset will be local licence manufacture of the vehicle – a questionable benefit considering South Africa’s pre-existing expertise in this field. The AMV is not a generational leap in technology as is the Hawk LIFT or the Saab Gripen advanced light fighter.

Hence, why the preference for an import over a range of local designs? The AMV acquisition may, in itself, be part of an offset for the Finnish Navy's acquisition of Denel's Umkhonto surface-to-air missile system. Finland in October 2002 signed a deal to buy the missiles, their launchers and associated fire-control equipment for six vessels. Then there was the ongoing financial woes of Denel to consider and attempts by the Department of Public Enterprises to tie up Denel with foreign partners to stem the financial bloodletting and secure export markets for Denel, something they were hopeless at when left to their own devices. And so speculation once again enters the picture. By July 2004 some were saying the deal would be a “wedding gift” in a Denel-EADS tie-up. At the time EADS was known to be keen in taking a stake in certain parts of the state concern. The enthusiasm is said to have faded when EADS did due diligence checks.

In May 2007, when Erwin announced the contract, talk was that the deal would see OMC, then owned by BAE Systems, and Denel Land Systems merge. CCII’s Young took a dim view of this, saying in a May 2007 e-mail this amounted to giving R4bn of the R8bn the deal was worth to the British for their “investment.”

Erwin’s announcement caused some surprise in light of comments by SA Army chief LTG Solly Shoke at various media briefings and observations by Armscor in Parliament in the early part of 2007. Speaking at a media briefing after a SA Army exercise at De Brug in November 2005, Shoke expressed some concerns over Hoefyster and said a review of the project as well as all other major SA Army projects were underway. A year later, at the same venue, he said that the project was at a “political level” and more enigmatically that it was going ahead but not in the way his audience imagined. At that time the AMV was already the only contender. Whether the present outcome represents a win or loss for Shoke remains to be seen. Shoke is known to have viewed favourably the further remanufacture of the Ratel.

In March 2007 Armscor briefed the National Assembly’s Portfolio Committee on Defence that negotiations were still underway and that the sticking point was cost: “The unit production cost and total project cost was not acceptable,” the arms agent said. “Project Hoefyster provides a complete Level 5 New Generation ICVPS (NGICVPS) to replace the Ratel infantry combat vehicle that has been in service since 1976. The offer as submitted on February 24, 2005 by Denel as main contractor, as well as a NGICVPS prototype vehicle was evaluated by Armscor and DAPD. The technical performance of the vehicle offered was mostly on par with the requirements, except for a few minor deviations that could be overcome with some minor design changes or adjustment in the specifications. The unit production cost and total project cost was not acceptable. The (Integrated Project Team) IPT was mandated to obtain the “best offer” from Denel, and present that for consideration to the Armaments Acquisition Steering Board in Project Study Report 3. Denel submitted a reviewed offer on November 18, 2005 to Armscor. The unit production price of the combat variants as well as the total project cost was still not acceptable. During December 2005 Armscor requested Denel to present their ‘best and final offer’ by February 2006. Denel submitted a revised offer (Issue C) on February 3, 2006. The prices offered for the turrets were considered acceptable, but the prices for the vehicle platforms were still unacceptable. Denel, together with Patria and OMC, again revised the offer and a more acceptable price was offered on March 3, 2006. The Project Control Board advised the IPT to enter into detail contract negotiations with Denel based on the revised offer received. The offer clarification process then started with Denel. Negotiations with Denel with the aim of arriving at a contracting position commenced on November 8, 2006.

Controversy

Hoefyster has become a controversial project for a host of reasons. These include (in no particular order):
• The small number ordered
• ICT
• The high cost per vehicle
• The choice of a foreign vice a local hull
• The choice of a new hull over a refurbishment of the Ratel
• Appointing Denel main contractor
• The length of the process

• The small number ordered: The Ratel is in use with the mechanised infantry, the armoured corps (as a tank destroyer and command vehicle) and the artillery (as a command and forward observation vehicle). At its height, the Ratel fleet mustered 1200 vehicles, and even with recent number reductions, the 264 AMVs will not replace the Ratel on a one-for-one basis. The number may allow for the re-equipping of the two regular mechanised infantry battalions, but unless more are bought, there will not be enough for the reserve regiments nor for the other corps and field headquarters that use the Ratel vehicle. This will mean the Ratel will continue in service and may need further upgrades. It also means the mechanised infantry will be stuck with two completely incompatible infantry combat vehicle product systems (ICVPS). Speaking to Engineering News , noted defence analyst Helmoed-Römer Heitman said about 600 vehicles are needed.

• ICT: The AMV will be fitted with state-of the-art information and communications technology (ICT). The command variant, Denel says “will be equipped with intricate network communications and battlefield awareness systems” that will allow for blue-force tracking and for vehicles to share data and exchange video” – pretty much standard internationally these days. However, this is not fitted to the rest of the Ratel fleet – and there are no published plans to do so, creating another field of incompatibility.

ICT companies involved in the acquisition expect to earn up to R270 million – or 3% of the contract value – for their command-and-control as well as communications contributions. However, industry sources said in May 2007 the ICT component of the project has been delayed for about six months. The cause of the delay is reportedly a poorly drafted tender specification for the command-and-control system that resulted in an inappropriate tender. The specification has since been rewritten and a new tender is in progress, the sources say. The tendered solution is expected to be compatible with Project Legend, the SA Army’s future C2 system.

• The high cost per vehicle: Basic arithmetic shows that at R8bn, the 264 vehicles will cost about R30.3 million each. This is pricey by any definition, particularly Young’s calculation of costs. An industry insider told the author it costs R30 million to tender a vehicle to the SANDF. The AMV was, according to this source, offered at R13 million each and costs R2 million to build . The source attributes the difference to development cost and risk. Denel apparently wants to write off the development cost against the first 50 vehicles. A 2003 news item suggests Poland paid zl.4.93 billion for up to 690 AMV in various configurations. The Army Guide reports the figure as US $1,560,000,000 or US $173,333,333 a year between 2004 and 2012. The site gives the Slovenian figure as US $361,000,000 (or US $60,166,667) for 135 vehicles between December 2006 and December 2011. Finland is said to have paid US126,000,000 for its 62 vehicles. By simple division the average unit cost for the Polish buy is about US $2.26 million; for the Slovenes is US $2.674 million and for the Finns is US $2.032 million. The Hoefyster price is double the above at US $4.32 million a piece (using a conversion factor of one US dollar costing seven rand). How can this be justified? The US Stryker, a 8x8 armoured personnel carrier based on the MOWAG Piranha III and fitted with an advanced ICT system, costs US$1.6 million (about R11 million at US$1 = R7) for the section carrier variant and US$3.7 million (about R25 million at the same exchange rate for the fire support variant). Hoefyster is clearly expensive from any point-of-view.

• The choice of a foreign vice a local hull: It is important to realise The Finnish EADS-Patria AMV was not a “natural” winner. South Africa has domestically designed all its light armoured vehicles since the 1970s. In fact the last foreign light armoured vehicle acquisition was the Alvis Saracen in the 1950s. There is much truth in the saying that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and South Africa’s expertise can today be seen in nearly all new generation troop carriers, including the Thales Australia Bushmaster, the BAE Systems RG33, the Force Protection Buffalo and Cougar, as well as others. South African designs such as the BAE Systems RG31 and RG32 as well as the Dorbyl Chubby are also in widespread use, including with the US Army – no mean feat considering institutional and Congressional opposition to anything foreign. A number of experienced contractors offered local designs, including at least OMC, LMT and Emerging World Technologies (then the Mechanology Design Bureau).

• The choice of a new hull over a refurbishment of the Ratel: There was nothing inevitable about purchasing a new hull. The Ratel is a well-manufactured armoured vehicle and has been remanufactured several times. Those familiar with armoured steel say it does not deteriorate with age and should have many more years of life. OMC and Emerging World Technologies (EWT, formerly Mechanology), proposed relatively inexpensive upgrades of the Ratel. Both companies had examples on display at African Aerospace and Defence 2006. EWT dubbed theirs the Ratel “Mk IV” and BAE Systems OMC called theirs the iKlwa, after Zulu King Shaka’s short spear. The basic change in both involved moving the infantry compartment aft by moving the engine compartment to the centre left of the vehicle, in the case of the Mk IV. The result is a spacious compartment that can take four stretchers and some walking wounded in the ambulance role. A standard infantry section fits in the roomy rear. The engine is so placed as not to interfere with the current turret. A passage to the turret and driver bypasses the engine on the right. The infantry debus from the rear – a much safer option than the current side doors, which are retained, the one on the right to access the turret and that on the left to access the engine. The conversion is available from US150,000 (about R1 million) per vehicle, EWT business development director MG Johan Jooste (Ret) told the author. This compares favourably with the about R30 million the Army will pay for each AMV. More ambitious upgrades, including a new engine pack, turret or primary weapon will cost more. An electric-drive variant is also available. The iKlwa costs slightly more.

• Appointing Denel main contractor: Traditionally, there has been a division of labour in the SA armaments industry. In the province of armoured vehicles, OMC has to date mostly been responsible for hull manufacture and final integration. As such, it was also prime contractor. Denel, by contrast, has little experience as main contractor in the armoured vehicle field. It is thus an open question what value the company can add, especially considering their less than stellar performance in another contract, GBADS. One source, who spoke to the author on condition of anonymity, questioned the choice of Denel as prime contractor for the project, citing its inability in delivering in another project, this time for a ground-based air defence solution (GBADS). Armscor reported to Parliament in March 2007 that by delivery in 2009 that multi-vendor, ICT-intensive project would be 54 months behind schedule . Denel itself admits that a “contract of this magnitude entails enormous project management skill and resources over many years,” the source says. As prime contractor Denel will be required to manage a supply chain of scores of local subcontractors, including SMME and BEE companies, all of which stand to have guaranteed business for the next 10 years, some with follow-on support work after delivery. Denel CE Shaun Liebenberg in May 2007 said South African companies “will deliver more than 70% of the total value of the contract,” 18% of which would be for the development of the turret systems.

The contract will see Denel deliver the troop carriers to the Army over a ten year period. "The awarding of this contract is a clear example of very high level alignment to meet South Africa's defence needs," says Liebenberg. But importantly, for Denel a new chapter has been written. This Armscor contract puts Denel Land Systems on the road to sustainability ." He continues: "Our Department of Public Enterprises and the Department of Defence, along with Armscor and the SANDF, all cooperated admirably to bring us to this point,” he said. "I foresee tremendous opportunities and further spin-offs to be realised through this contract, mainly for young technicians and engineering students who wish to make a career in the defence-related industry,” Liebenberg said as he waxed lyrical in a Denel press release. “This contract will contribute immensely to skills development and training, which are very much part of the Deputy President's Joint Initiative for Priority Skills Acquisition (JIPSA) programme.”

"Whilst recognising the huge challenge to execute a contract this big, I'm fully confident Denel Land Systems can manage it well," Liebenberg gushed. "This is the company that produced hundreds of the renowned South African G5 and G6 artillery systems, sold internationally, and that supplied the combat turret and weapons systems on the unmatched Rooikat armoured fighting vehicle."

The press release added that negotiations took three years and was “arguably the largest contract Denel has landed in its 16-year history.” It quoted Liebenberg as further saying: "We are exceedingly pleased to have been selected as prime contractor on this very important programme, more so as it indicates the SANDF and Armscor's confidence in the local defence industry's capabilities.” One can debate this: three years is a long time to haggle and the government could have better shown its trust in local industry by buying an entirely local product.

• The length of the process: Hoefyster was registered as a project in 1997. It has thus taken 10 years to bring to contract, which in anyone’s book is a long time. The delivery time, 10 years for some 260 vehicles is also rather sedentary.

Engineering News has noted that the Ratel has to date not gone a-peacekeeping, “and, although better armed and protected than the Casspir, and equipped with three axles, the modernisation programmes it has been subjected to have not increased its armour and it remains vulnerable to man-portable anti armour weapons such as the well-known RPG series.” Article writer Keith Campbell adds that such “vulnerabilities are serious because peacekeeping forces generally have to allow the other side to fire first and only then return fire.” This is true, but the AMV, as well as every other light ICV is equally vulnerable. Heitman adds: “RPG-proofing Ratels and Casspirs is a good idea and the US has shown how slat armour or chain-link fencing can be used inexpensively to do so; a more expensive solution is Saab Grintek’s LEDS system, which can reportedly destroy an RPG fired as close as 20m from the vehicle.” Heitman suggested to the Sunday Times that the vehicle might attract export orders “once it had been built and tested.”

Almost amusingly for a company that has sold modular turret solutions for a decade, the press release claims that “Denel engineers will have their work cut out to design [turrets for] the five variants.” Apparently “they are not off-the-shelf items . Whereas the future Command variant will be equipped with intricate network communications and battlefield awareness systems, the others carry a variety of weapons systems.”

“Several Denel businesses, along with numerous other specialist suppliers, will provide required systems for the turrets. Denel Dynamics' proven [ZT3] Ingwe long-range anti-armour missile is destined for the Missile variant. Whilst DLS has already started working on the weapons systems, including an indigenous 30mm cannon and a sophisticated mortar to be integrated in the turret, Denel Munitions will supply the ammunition and mortar bombs.” A report indicates that about 170 30mm turrets will be built.

Business Report newspaper in December 2005 published that Denel Land Systems had high hopes of manufacturing about 170 30mm cannon for the programme, after the US Bushmaster apparently did not fit all criteria. Analysts in the gun trade told the author there was little change of the company doing this economically. Defence Systems Daily reported in July 2004 that the AMV would be fitted with the new Denel LCT-30 turret sporting a 30mm cannon. A source told DSD this would likely be a Mauser made under license .

The opposition Democratic Alliance questioned the deal . Defence spokesman Andries Botha said he was taken by surprise by the announcement. "Certainly, we need these vehicles. The existing equipment is very outdated. But we discussed it in the portfolio committee a few days ago and there was no indication that it was this close to completion," he said. Botha said the DA favoured efforts to direct major projects towards South African industry "but not at the cost of efficiency or competitiveness". He said the committee had not been given enough information to know whether the Denel bid was the best option for the defence force.

To date, Finland has ordered 86 of the vehicles and Poland 690.

Suitability for the job

There is today a clear trend to 8x8 vehicles. The AMV is, on the face of it no better or worse than any other solution. However, the deal must be questioned on the basis of the small order placed, the long delivery time, the involvement of Denel as prime contractor and above all, the high cost of each individual vehicle. As an aside, one must also question the choice of a foreign over a local design, especially when it is recalled that at least eight South African concerns were adjudged competent to receive the RfP.

http://www.defencethink.co.za/node/15
 
With regard to the AMV selection, I have had very explicit comments that in terms of crew protection and crew functionality South African industry was very capable but that the automotive and cost of ownerships issues were well below what was expected from western platforms and that the Hoefyster programme aimed to infuse this into the new vehicle without having to pay large development costs.
 
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The first post, as well as reply 1,2,3,4,5 and 48 covered the 8X8 vehicle that appears to have been part of the Rooikat project that was branched off to fulfill a Ratel replacement requirement. The vehicle was front-engined and in the first post was also shown mounting what appears to be a Ratel-20 turret. The vehicle appears to be a generic platform, with an Infantry Combat Vehicle (Ratel replacement) and a Weapons Platform Vehicle to be developed. The time frame appears to be in the early/mid 1980's, almost 10 years after the Ratel came to fruition.

Below is a further description and picture from the SA Armour Museum.


PROTOTYPE, CLASS 2C, ARMOURED WEAPON PLATFORM (RSA)
Crew: Dependent on configuration

Combat Mass: 20 mt

Armament: Customer’s choice

Engine: MTU-V-6-6396; V-6 Cyl; Turbo Charged; Liquid Cooled; Diesel; 588 kW (786 hp) at 2 400 r/min

Transmission: ZF4HP 2000; Fully automatic; 4 forward 1 Rev; Manual selection, 1-4 and Rev Configuration - 8x8; Transverse and Longitudinal Differential locks

Speed: Road 86 km/h

Operating Range: Road 1 200 km

Purpose: Weapon Platform for Armoured cars, Personnel carriers; Ambulance etc.

Unique Feature: Front Mounted Engine


This weapon platform, manufactured by Sandock Austral (Pty) Ltd circa 1984/85, was designed to introduce to the user, Armour and Infantry, a new concept for front-mounted engine variants, for use as a armoured car, infantry combat vehicle, ambulance, command vehicles etc.
 

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Kaiser,

You might want to check out the newly announced BAE RG41, it looks suspiciously like the vehicles here that are marked 'Piranha'. ;)
 
I think you've nailed that one, sealord'. I knocked together a quick retouch to see if the intitial impression lasted.

The glacis and forward hull have been completely changed (and engine vents repositioned) but, otherwise, the hulls sure do alike.

BTW: does anyone have anything on the TRT-25? I'm assuming that this turret is destined for the RG41.
 

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Apophenia,

Excellent bit of retouching!

The TRT-25 is basically an RCWS intended for medium calibre weapons. The BAE press release seem to imply that it will be displayed on the RG41 at Eurosatory. Visually it reminds me of some Ukrainian and Russian designs.
 
Interesting Sealord and Apo. The vehicles, whilst appearing to have a much changed profile, may very well be related. Who is the RG41 touted towards?
 
No specific customers as yet, at least discussed in public, but much is being made in the press releases about it being ITAR free so my money is on the traditional South African markets. There does seem to be considerable overlap with the RG35 though.
 
Interesting. So it may turn out to be the Ratel replacement after all. The Patria was selected, but current numbers mean it will not actually be the Ratel replacement it was touted to be. The Ratel was produced in numbers that amounted to 6 times the numbers of Patria (Badger) ordered. Now obviously the end of the Cold War means that it is exteremely doubtful that SA will procure a Ratel replacement in the same sort of numbers, but there will still be a shortfall.

I seem to recall a year or two back, another 6X6 vehicle being showed by South Africa. I seem to recall it being a dark green, with turrey various turret options. Does anyone recall this vehicle? 'm going to see if I can try and dig it out on the net.....
 
kaiserbill said:
I seem to recall a year or two back, another 6X6 vehicle being showed by South Africa. I seem to recall it being a dark green, with turrey various turret options. Does anyone recall this vehicle? 'm going to see if I can try and dig it out on the net.....

Sounds like the mid-engined RG35 (which is also available as a 4x4).

sealord': I saw the Eurosatory notice but, so far, have only seen images of the TPT mounted on the RG34. I guess we'll just have to week a few weeks to see the TPT-25 on an RG41 ;D

As for RG41 marketing, I'm wondering if BAE sees an opportunity when up-armouring projects like GDLS' LAV-H didn't pan out as advertised. I've yet to see any protection levels announced for the RG41 but I'd bet that its hull is better shaped for blasts from below than the flat-bottomed Piranha III or AMV.
 
Quite correct, it's the RG35. I've seen it mentioned as a Casspir replacement, but perhaps they are talking about its 4X4 version. The 6X6 version is certainly big, and is heavier even than the Ratel. Perhaps a mixture of the 2 to replace the Ratel (6X6) and Casspir (4X4)?

"We have combined a 4x4 mine-protected vehicle with a modern 8x8 combat vehicle," announced BAE Systems Land Systems South Africa MD Johan Steyn.

"The standard model is the 6x6 version. But we plan a family of vehicles, and we will have a 4x4 vehicle."

Its development is based on expertise gained, on the one hand, from the development of the Ratel and iKlwa armoured vehicles and, on the other, from the development of the RG31 mine-protected vehicle family. The basic V-shaped design of the hull is taken from the RG31.

Advances found in the RG35 include a side-mounted power pack, which can be replaced in just 30 minutes.

Furthermore, the vehicle has been designed to accommodate hybrid electric drive, once this becomes available. "It will be very easy to incorporate this drive into this vehicle," says Steyn.

Mounting the power pack on the side creates a large internal volume and the RG35's volume under armour is 15 cubic metres. The vehicle can carry a driver and up to 15 passengers. All critical systems are under armour. It has a dual unit air conditioning system, so that, if one unit is lost, the other is still available.

The RG35 has a payload of nearly 15 t. One of the benefits of this is that it makes it easy to attach add-on armour to the vehicle without overloading it. It has been so designed that an additional 120 mm of armour can be added to the hull bottom V, while the hull sides can take 50 mm of additional armour.

The basic version, displayed in London, is fitted with a new generation Overhear Manual Turret - Multiweapon, designed and developed by another unit of the company, Pretoria-based BAE Systems Land Systems Dynamics. However, a wide variety of alternative turrets will be available.

The RG35 will be available in a wide variety of versions, from the basic infantry-carrying combat vehicle, to command post vehicle, engineering vehicle, 120 mm mortar vehicle, anti-aircraft gun vehicle, recovery vehicle, and ambulance.

The 6x6 RG35 is 2,5 m wide, just over 7 m long, and 2,7 m high. It has a trubning circle of 15 m, which is less than that of an RG31.

The company has already produced the hull for the first 4x4 version of the vehicle, and plans to have the prototype 4x4 completed and operational by this time next year.
http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/art...any-2009-09-08

BAE Systems launched the latest 6x6 addition to the battle-proven RG range at the Defence Systems & Equipment International (DSEi) exhibition today – the RG35 Mine Protected multi-purpose fighting vehicle.
RG35 combines the high levels of survivability of the RG31 Mine Protected Vehicle with much of the tactical capability of a modern combat vehicle.
RG35 incorporates the best of 30 years experience in mobility, protection and sustainability, while meeting current challenges and threats. It meets modern warfare protection requirements, but also offers tactical on- and off-road mobility.
“RG35 offers unprecedented versatility and will be equally suitable in peace support and conventional operations,” said Johan Steyn, Managing Director, BAE Systems Land Systems South Africa. “We continuously develop and enhance our vehicles to support our customers’ operational needs.”
The versatile RG35 can carry light and medium turrets and direct and indirect-fire weapons. It can also be configured in all the variants of a fighting unit (ambulance, weapon carriers, command posts and others) and can be customized in various sizes such as the 4x4 and 6x6, for various missions to meet customer needs.
RG35 is a 6x6 mine protected multi-purpose fighting vehicle 7.4 meters in length, 2.5 meters in width and 2,7 meters in height with a ground clearance of 458 millimeters. The RG35 gross vehicle mass is 33,000kg with a payload of 14,870kg and 15sqm volume under armour. The RG35 has a turning circle of 15m and seats driver plus 15 crew members.

http://www.baesystems.com/Newsroom/N...098810917.html
 

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The whole RG35/RG41 thing seems very curious, SA does not have the budget for any major procurement beyond the current AMV purchase (Project Sepula et al have been kicked into the long grass and bitten by snakes) so the only viable markets for both vehicles are for export. However they both appear to fulfill the same role and have very similar specs and frankly seem to compete directly with each other.
 
Yes, I think you're right about them being aimed at the export market (rather like BAE's iguanid orphan, the RG34). As for competing directly with each other ... not always.

The RG35 is being submitted for Canada's Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle competition. TAPV is looking for a common type available as both 4x4 and 6x6 platforms. RG35 could fit the bill whereas RG41 would just be an unwelcome duplication with the existing LAV III fleet.
 
Apophenia said:
Yes, I think you're right about them being aimed at the export market (rather like BAE's iguanid orphan, the RG34). As for competing directly with each other ... not always.

The RG35 is being submitted for Canada's Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle competition. TAPV is looking for a common type available as both 4x4 and 6x6 platforms. RG35 could fit the bill whereas RG41 would just be an unwelcome duplication with the existing LAV III fleet.

Has RG35 been confirmed for the TAPV bid? My understanding was that it was still just a rumour from un-named sources?

In 6 x 6 form the RG35 is near identical to the performance of the RG41, if you include SEP BAE is now offering 3 platforms in roughly the same weight and performance category on the world market- and none of them have yet been ordered!
 
sealordlawrence said:
Has RG35 been confirmed for the TAPV bid? My understanding was that it was still just a rumour from un-named sources?

Yes, you're right. The supposed leading contender for TAPV has yet to be officially submitted :D

AFAIK, the RG35 was not displayed at the Ottawa CANSEC show (which may be a hint that BAE is backing away from TAPV). The SOR has yet to be released and the TAPV programme is a real dog's breakfast of seemingly mutually-exclusive requirements.

From BAE's perspective, the G-Wagen-replacement component of TAPV might be met by the RG-32M, APV-replacements by a newer variant of the RG31, Coyote-replacements by the RG35, and the utility requirement by the RG33. But, Canada's DND wants a single hull to cover all these requirements.
 
Is this the turret (TWT) you were referring to Apo?

BAE Systems SA unveils smart turret

Written by Leon Engelbrecht
Thursday, 10 June 2010 06:26

BAE Systems South Africa will be displaying a new fire-on-the-move Tactical Response Turret (TRT) on its new RG41 8x8 mine-protected wheeled armoured combat vehicle at next week's Eurosatory defence show in Paris, France.

The self-contained turret, as designed, can be fitted with a US Alliant Techsystems M242 Bushmaster 25mm cannon – or similar-sized weapons ranging from 20 to 30mm – as well as an co-axial M240 (FN MAG) machine gun. Armoured bins allow for 1000 7.62x51mm NATO rounds and 260 25x137mm rounds in two magazines of 130 rounds each. In addition, the turret is fitted with four 76mm smoke launchers. Traverse is all-round and elevation is from -10 to +65 degrees. Mechanical or software-controlled interruptors are available to restrict movement in azimuth in order to create “prohibited zones”.

BAE Systems says the turret weighs 800kg of which some half is the weapon and ammunition. On a typical LAV such as those derived from the MOWAG Piranha, the TRT offers a weight saving of 1200kg. It is also a major space-saver, the company avers. The TRT is typically 1100mm high and 1320mm wide. Traverse is at 1.8 rad/s, 103 degrees a second or 3.5 seconds to circle, elevation is 1.5 ad/s or 85 degrees a second. Stabilisation is “better than 0.5 rad/s” while operational on the move while laying accuracy is better than 150 Rad with automatic optical tracking after manual lock-on.

The standard sighting sensor system allows for identification by day at 1000m and by night at 750m in terms of STANAG 4347), while the Vectronics 3042 laser range finder ranges to 5km. A “high performance” suite offers identification by day at 2500m and 1600m at night. The suite's Carl Zeiss laser range finder does so at 12km. In both cases a further commanders' observation sight is available.
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.ph...and&Itemid=105
 

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The RG41 is an 8 x 8 wheeled armoured fighting vehicle which is 7,78 m long, 2,8 m wide and 2,357 m high (hull only). It can carry a crew of three, plus an infantry section of eight.

Its payload capacity is 11 t and it has a gross vehicle mass of 30 t, and, powered by a Deutz 2015TCD V6 diesel engine, can reach a maximum speed of 100 km/h.

The RG41 is a mine-protected, modular design capable of being repaired in the field, with high mobility and a comfortable ride because it has a specially modified hydro-pneumatic suspension.

The TRT is designed to be operated by one person and to be able to be fitted to a wide range of armoured vehicles. Equipped with electromechanical drives it has a unique functionality which allows for rapid acquisition of, and locking on to, targets. It can rotate 360˚ in a time of 3,5 seconds, and elevate from -10˚ to +65˚.

It can be fitted with day monochrome or colour charge-coupled device cameras and a thermal night camera for target detection and combines “game-boy” style controls with a 104 mm liquid crystal display screen. The vehicle commander can also be provided with a sight for the TRT.

Currently, the TRT is equipped with a McDonnel Douglas M242 Bushmaster 25-mm cannon and a 7,62-mm co-axial machine gun, but can be adjusted to take alternative weapons up to 30-mm in calibre.
http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/art...ign-2010-06-10
 

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kaiserbill said:
Is this the turret (TWT) you were referring to Apo?

Yes it is. Thanks kaiser', I hadn't seen that rear view before.

About Casspir replacements, I saw mention that an updated Casspir was to be offered but I don't recall by whom. Does anyone know if BAE is considering starting up production again?
 
The Casspir and the Mamba are due to be replaced by Project Sepula, unfortunately this has vanished from the radar in recent years. The idea was that the SADF would acquire a new fleet of logistics vehicles under Project Vistula, basically just trucks to replace the Samils. Project Sepula was to follow on using the automotive components from the Project Vistula platforms to produce some light APC's. There was also a follow on called Project Adrift for a new tank destroyer. The last name has become something of a running joke as it rather summarises the situation with its progress. Apparently there is an R600 million budget that has been allocated but is currently unspent, though anything could have happened to it now.

However, the key point is that the Casspir / Mamba replacement will be based on a commercial engine and drive train..........if it ever happens.

Not directly related but I find it very amusing nonetheless,

As stated BAE has 3 vehicles in roughly the same category, the RG35, RG41, and SEP, now it appears that none of these privately funded and yet to sell platforms is suitable for the latest competition BAE is entering and instead they are undertaking a licensing agreement with Iveco for the Super-AV............i swear BAE is run by untrained chimps.
 
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:eek: but you'd expect untrained chimps to have a better-honed sense of self-preservation!
 
On page 3, post 43, the Iklwa was shown armed with a multi-weapon turret, or a remote 12,7mm weapon station. This is a development of the basic Ratel with a new hull top that can accept multiple turret configurations, and has a more compact, powerful engine moved to the centre-side of the vehicle, a ramp at the back, additional armour, and bigger wheels amongst other improvements. Below is the version with a Ratel 20 turret.
 

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From an article about the Ratel replacement in the South African V.E.G. magazine,
8th issue, a photo of the BAe, LMT and Mechanology contenders, one of the Patria
design and a colour profile of the BAe design.
 

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Fantastic post Jemiba.
I'd love to have a look at the original article, as well as the one of the Olifant article! It looks like having a peek at the VEG magazines would be most interesting.
 
For those interested, just send a PM. ;)
 

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