RAF Puma Replacement?

JohnR said:
TomS said:
CJGibson said:
Dunno, they didn't fly much after the wives set up their petitions.

Chris
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Oh, those. I'd forgotten about that.
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Can you expand on this?????
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Very high-profile crash in the North Sea.

en.wikipedia.org

CHC Helikopter Service Flight 241 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

www.flightglobal.com

Airbus Helicopters finds root cause of Turoy H225 crash

Airbus Helicopters is confident that it has identified the root cause of the main gearbox (MGB) failure behind the fatal 2016 crash of an H225 in Norway.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com
 
Thanks for the info, I do vaguely remember a helicopter crash; and there being some fault with the rotor system but the entire thing detaching from the fuselage!!!! All I can say is J****S C****T, its like both wings falling of an airliner.
 
Since 1985 I'd fallen asleep in the back of Super Pumas and then the Super Puma Mk.2s. I liked them. They were fast and had the legs to reach the Beryl field without a refuel stop on most days. Cramped, but the best chopper is a fast chopper heading to town with a tailwind and you're on board. Great machines. Then came the replacements. I found the EC225s incredibly uncomfortable as they had staggered the seats and had lowered them compared with the Mk.2s, so you took on the posture of a dog doing its business. For up to three hours. Even worse with an 'Extra Broad' passenger beside you and a bail-out bottle digging into your ribs, so no kip.

Then one went in.

Then another. Caught on video with its main rotor coming down in a slow spiral like a sycamore seed. I watched that on the news and was stunned.

NB - the Mk.2 that went in at Sumburgh went in for other, unrelated reasons.

The offshore workers' wives set up a Facebook campaign/petition to have 'the Pumas' banned from flying out of Aberdeen etc. Suffice to say the EC225s disappeared, but the Mk.2s went as well. Unfortunately not everyone has my recognition skills and all 'Pumas' look the same, so all the 'Pumas' were soon gone.

I have often wondered what would have happened if the Norwegian 225 hadn't been caught on video.

NB - After the 1986 Chinook crash, Chinooks were withdrawn from UK operations. I heard, but can't confirm the veracity of this, that Brits working on Norway could refuse to fly on Chinooks - but Norwegians couldn't!

Chris
 
If I do remind correctly those Nord Sea helo went to the French and then to Ukraine at an incredible bargain (see The Great aircraft bazaar thread) :
helihub.com

Airbus have sold 21 ex-CHC H225s to Ukraine - HeliHub.com

Following our detailed analysis of the H225/AS332L2 fleet movements yesterday there is one other key contract for H225s which we can now provide more details to. In late May, the French Government announced that Airbus signed a €555 million ($643M) deal with Ukraine for 55 helicopters. The...
helihub.com helihub.com
 
CJGibson said:
NB - After the 1986 Chinook crash, Chinooks were withdrawn from UK operations. I heard, but can't confirm the veracity of this, that Brits working on Norway could refuse to fly on Chinooks - but Norwegians couldn't!

Chris
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Was that the one that crash in the Scottish Highland of an RAF Chinook that was carrying anti-terror specialists from Northern Island.
 
I think the aspiration will be to have FLRAA, or whatever the US blackhawk replacement is called.

Do we get something to cover short term, or extend the puma? it's going to come down to cost i guess but i can imagine lots of army rat and marine interest in the increased capability of the new designs.
 
JohnR said:
CJGibson said:
NB - After the 1986 Chinook crash, Chinooks were withdrawn from UK operations. I heard, but can't confirm the veracity of this, that Brits working on Norway could refuse to fly on Chinooks - but Norwegians couldn't!

Chris
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Was that the one that crash in the Scottish Highland of an RAF Chinook that was carrying anti-terror specialists from Northern Island.
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No, it was the November 1986 British Airways (technically it was British International Helicopters by that time. Affectionately known on the rig I was on as 'Fat Boab's Choppers'.) Chinook off Sumburgh, 45 dead, two survivors.

1614334444662.png
ill-fated BV234 G-BWFC on the helideck of Fulmar-A

1614334521898.png

Interior of a BV234. Don't know if this was standard procedure i.e. no survival suits or ear protection, but I doubt it. After this we were issued with proper horse-collar life jackets rather than standard airline polybags. I left the North Sea for West Africa in late 86. When I returned to the North Sea in 1989 everything had changed - suits zipped up at all time, horse collar lifejackets and hoods up for landing and lift. Not long after that we got rebreathers, then around 2014 (I think) bail-out bottles.

Chris
 
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bob225 said:
Do we get something to cover short term, or extend the puma? it's going to come down to cost i guess but i can imagine lots of army rat and marine interest in the increased capability of the new designs.
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Logic is once again a commodity in short supply in both Whitehall and Downing Street, alas.
 
I didn't realise that Chinooks were used on oil rigs. In the main I've seen Sea Kings and their developments and Pumas and their development.
 
JohnR said:
I didn't realise that Chinooks were used on oil rigs. In the main I've seen Sea Kings and their developments and Pumas and their development.
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Yep, British Airwys Helicopters then BIH and Norwegian Helikopter Service A/S operated them. Helikopter Service A/S BV-234 used for first HUMS trials.

I have seen a photo from the late 80s or early 90s of Columbia Helicopters BV-234 supporting an oil rig of which the remaining BA BV-234 were sold to them.

Laying aside the crash, tbh as the BV-234 for offshore rig support was overkill as the oil rigs began to have less and less folk on due to technology and automation. The nice niche waa the S-61N and S-76 (I worked with the latter for maintenance and cowling repairs/production).

Without risk of a thread drift, in the very first days of offshore helo support, it was all single engine likes of Bell 47, Bell 206 etc (still practise with Bell 407, 206L4 in Gulf of Mexico).

Anyone remember the then Eurocopter Future Heavy Transport Helicopter , funnly enough when I spoke to the folks at then ECD who were part of the FHTH project thy reckoned a decade ago that it be good for offshore oil support for commercial side. Onviouslt the FHTH has gone quiet in the last few years and it be more of a CH-47/CH-53 replacement for NATO.

Cheers
 
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Another of repeated what does that mean, HUMS.

I've only ever been on small helo's a couple of Squirrels, a Jet Ranger and a Bell 47 - flying over a volcanic lava flow in a helicopter older than I was with its door held on with duct tape was not conducive to a settled stomach.
 
Back to the thread. I tend to view this Puma HC2 replacement as AST.404 all over again. No doubt by the time all the messing about is complete the FRLAA or similar will be available.

I get the impression a lot of the medium helicopters are pitched, a la Shorts military flying boats in the 40s and 50s, with more than an eye to the civil market rather than out and out military roles. Don Berna was correct!

Chris
 
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Going need something smaller than a 100% Chinook fleet, the Merlns we're given to the Marines and the Lynx / Wildcat not a replacement option.

Thinking back to the olympics they had pumas on standby with snipers if i recall right? can't do that with a chinook, A189 just a civvy chopper painted green for a placeholder?
 
bob225 said:
Going need something smaller than a 100% Chinook fleet, the Merlns we're given to the Marines and the Lynx / Wildcat not a replacement option.

Thinking back to the olympics they had pumas on standby with snipers if i recall right? can't do that with a chinook, A189 just a civvy chopper painted green for a placeholder?
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And Lynx AH7 at the ready as well as Super Lynx HM8, I did. am in depth report for a think tank on Olympic Rotary Wing Security which involved visiting HMS Ocean on public day pre Olympics When it docked at Greenwich and day after the Events finished. Here are my photos of the embarked assets for the games which included

then 1st Regt AAC (deployed from Gutersloh, Germany) with Lynx AH7

816 NAS with Lynx HM8

B3771DB9-BFD2-4025-9751-26049F68182F.jpeg A9214170-BE7E-422B-9048-03661FB025FD.jpeg 5F69203E-DFDD-420B-BFC1-D9A96588B609.jpeg 4294C4E6-CDEB-43A3-A84D-D2ECEB9271ED.jpeg 6B581826-A7D7-481C-BC1B-06A5C7EE9B16.jpeg 14381FDE-A18F-48A7-B8DA-FD74DB22E507.jpeg 02E1A40A-B8B4-438D-BA62-37FE73DB8321.jpeg BFF931FF-DDAD-4919-98AA-B5DD3ED20FEC.jpeg

The Puma with snipers were at RAF Northolt as I recall (lemme look into my paper)

cheers
 
Ah, back in the day. Now we have no Lynx, no HMS Ocean and soon no Puma.

Who knows what will happen.
What is clear is that faffing around has left the RAF in a hole. The Puma can't go on until FVL or NRGC materialise and the MoD doesn't envision buying FVL or NRGC until the 2040s when the Merlin needs replacing too, so an interim replacement is needed but a 20-year lifespan isn't exactly a temporary sticking plaster, it needs some thought behind it.

Saying that, the options are not limitless and as Chris says, most medium choppers now are built for commercial use as their primary aim.
There is always a Voyager-style lease deal, but that might be problematic for several reasons.
 
I think that given the low number needed they could ask Bell to build two dozen of those nice V-280 developmental airframe and work around with them and the UK industry to build the perfect war machine out of it.
 
CJGibson said:
Wyvern said:
That, or the RAF could order the Caracal, since it is basically a descendant of the Puma.
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Ahem, that's a warry EC225. Might as well buy them off Bristow.

Chris
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Ah. That's a problem then.

On a different note, for such a small order, couldn't the RAF just order something on the lines of the SB-1 or V-280? If those are on the expensive side, couldn't a militarised AW189 be produced?
 
USAF has bought the AW-139 for the Nuke security teams, AW-149 not far off size of puma? I guess they could be assembled in UK?

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AW149 - Military Helicopters

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Wyvern said:
On a different note, for such a small order, couldn't the RAF just order something on the lines of the SB-1 or V-280?
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Those aircraft are not ready for production yet. What they have now are essentially hand-made demonstrators that almost certainly have major shortfalls from being actual operational aircraft. That's why the US Army doesn't even plan to have actual prototypes until 2025-26, with production aircraft years behind that. And both of those are introducing significant new and unproven technology.

That's why all the discussion about Puma replacement is centered on aircraft that are in production right now. Which doesn't leave a lot of options. AW149/189 is definitely a candidate, as is H225M (despite the bad PR). US would be either one of the newest Black Hawk versions or possibly the Bell 525.

Wyvern said:
The AW149 is in a similar class of rotorcraft to the S-70/H-60 Blackhawk series. AW189 is larger.
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No, it's not. They're basically the same aircraft; the AW149 is the more strictly military version while the AW189 is nominally more commercial, though both have military sales. But if you look at them physically, they are the same size, have the same rotors, engines, etc.
 
TomS said:
No, it's not. They're basically the same aircraft; the AW149 is the more strictly military version while the AW189 is nominally more commercial, though both have military sales. But if you look at them physically, they are the same size, have the same rotors, engines, etc.
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I stand corrected. I always thought the AW189 was larger.
 
Wyvern said:
TomS said:
No, it's not. They're basically the same aircraft; the AW149 is the more strictly military version while the AW189 is nominally more commercial, though both have military sales. But if you look at them physically, they are the same size, have the same rotors, engines, etc.
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I stand corrected. I always thought the AW189 was larger.
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Yeah, Augusta's designations would certainly lead to that conclusion. Supposedly there are differences under the skin between the two, like hardened landing gear in the 149, but outwardly the 149 and 189 are nearly identical.

The 189 is larger than the AW139, though.
 
We cant 'gold plate' everything, a simple COTS purchase of an in production aircraft should be good enough this time round.
 
Just a naive daft suggestion from me, what about buying more Merlins?
 
JohnR said:
Just a naive daft suggestion from me, what about buying more Merlins?
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RAF just divested their Merlin to the RN a few years ago, so getting more now would be hugely embarrassing to say the least. I think they see it is a threat/competitor to Chinook anyway, so they definitely don't want anything that big as a Puma replacement.
 
What is the likely prices of a purchase of AW149, EC225 or Blackhawk?

Is there equipment on the Puma's that could be transferred to any purchase that would 'harden' the 'new' aircraft?

Given that any other options are up in the air and years from a practical aircraft we have to come up with something.

As for the idea of extending the life of the Puma's, I wonder how many government minister are being driven around in Austin Princess's or Jaguars of 1970's vintage.
 
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There must be enough Sikorsky Blackhawks kicking around for these to be cheap and they are at least military spec.
Not sure myself that the RAF should have the smaller helo, I would have thought they should go to the Army. That way the RAF can just focus on operating Chinooks.
 
TomS said:
JohnR said:
Just a naive daft suggestion from me, what about buying more Merlins?
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RAF just divested their Merlin to the RN a few years ago, so getting more now would be hugely embarrassing to say the least. I think they see it is a threat/competitor to Chinook anyway, so they definitely don't want anything that big as a Puma replacement.
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coanda said:
The Merlins are not a good solution to the problem from what I've heard from RAF users.
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They ultimately may have no choice though, barring the possible procurement of a V-22 variant.
 

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