RAAF F-104A in 1957?

MadRat said:
Mirage III may have hit Mach 2 unloaded, but speed in combat had an irrefutable impact on range. Mirage also used slow firing heavy cannon that were not ideal for air superiority. F-104 had the clear advantage for gun work and was unmatched for raw speed. BUT then Sidewinder came about. F11H was smaller and literally 75% the size and lacked capability cimpared with an F8U, using the same guns but pinched for shells. F11H carried 125 rounds per gun while F8U carried 144. F3H and F8U, while even in speed to F11H, were better choices than either F-104 or F11H without the massive cimpromise on speed or capability. F3H had Sparrow and Sidewinder, and was suited for short takeoffs. F8U carried four AIM-8 versus two for the Tiger. The Super Tiger carried missiles to match F8U but it was too late. Super Tiger was the only F11H version that was realistic to compare to F-8B, but (like the Mirage and Starfighter) its superior speed came at a huge cost to range. And the Super Tiger was short on volume to upgrade. The F-8 version at the time of Super Tiger was XF8U-3, a huge leap ahead and more similar in capability to F-4D.
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Mach 2 is more a marker of performance than a practical speed reached by planes on routine CAPs. The fastest possible speed means extra energy imparted to missiles during launch, the ability to engage and disengage as needed and to close distances in interceptions.

The range argument is a non-event, a CAP or other mission isn't planned for the full theoretical flight endurance. It will will have a 5-10 minute allowance for combat at full throttle, with the range limitation that this imposes being accepted as standard. When these rules are not followed, like the Argentines at the Falklands, ostensibly superior performance fighters are chopped to pieces by subsonic Sea Harriers.

The M61 Vulcan takes half a second to spin up to full speed, so the first second of firing means 68 rounds. The revolver DEFA 552 fires at full speed instantaneously, some 25 rounds in the first second, or 50 rounds given most fighters with DEFA or Aden cannons carry a pair of guns.
 
MadRat said:
Mirage III may have hit Mach 2 unloaded, but speed in combat had an irrefutable impact on range. Mirage also used slow firing heavy cannon that were not ideal for air superiority. F-104 had the clear advantage for gun work and was unmatched for raw speed. BUT then Sidewinder came about. F11H was smaller and literally 75% the size and lacked capability cimpared with an F8U, using the same guns but pinched for shells. F11H carried 125 rounds per gun while F8U carried 144. F3H and F8U, while even in speed to F11H, were better choices than either F-104 or F11H without the massive cimpromise on speed or capability. F3H had Sparrow and Sidewinder, and was suited for short takeoffs. F8U carried four AIM-8 versus two for the Tiger. The Super Tiger carried missiles to match F8U but it was too late. Super Tiger was the only F11H version that was realistic to compare to F-8B, but (like the Mirage and Starfighter) its superior speed came at a huge cost to range. And the Super Tiger was short on volume to upgrade. The F-8 version at the time of Super Tiger was XF8U-3, a huge leap ahead and more similar in capability to F-4D.
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I'm guessing that by "F11H" (the H suffix is the manufacturer code for McDonnell, and they made no such aircraft) you mean the Grumman ("F") F11F-1F Super Tiger.

The 3 types are NOT anywhere near the same speed.

The prototype Super Tigers broke M2 - the F8U Crusader made M1.53 (F8U-1/1E [F-8A/B]) to M1.86 (F8U-2N [F-8D]), and the F3H Demon made 642mph at 35,000 feet (M.97 at that altitude).
 
Pioneer said:
If my memory serves me correctly, Grumman did propose a Rolls-Royce Avon-powered derivative of the F11F-1F Super Tiger to West Germany/Luftwaffe, which the Australian government/RAAF were big fans of.
Also, I'm pretty sure the F11F-1F Super Tiger was Aim-7 Sparrow compatible from the getgo.

Regards
Pioneer
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Yes the production Super Tigers were to be Sparrow capable, and were to carry up to 4 Sidewinders AND up to 4 Sparrows!

The Avon was larger in diameter than the F11F Tiger's J65 (Sapphire 100), so the fuselage would need to be a bit fatter (adversely affecting area-ruling). The F11F-1F Super Tiger's J79 was smaller in diameter than the J65, but the fuselage was to remain the same (to reduce the redesign necessary and to increase the internal fuel).
 
Yes, I meant F11F, not H. Its a lot easier to remember the newer standards.

Super Tigers were far too late for the OP's original competition in which Mirage won.
 
MadRat said:
Yes, I meant F11F, not H. Its a lot easier to remember the newer standards.

Super Tigers were far too late for the OP's original competition in which Mirage won.
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No, Mirage III won the 1960+ competition... the competition in the OP was the 1956-57 one that the F-104 won (but procurement of which was then cancelled). There is no evidence the RAAF ever evaluated the Super Tiger, which is no surprise as Grumman had stopped the program and officially taken the F11F-1F "off the market" at the end of 1959.

The first Super Tiger first flew on May 26 1956, and achieved M2.04 (and an unofficial altitude of 80,250 feet) on May 2 1957 in the second prototype.

On April 16 1958 LtCdr George Watkins set an official world altitude record of 76,831 feet, also in the second prototype.

Between May 1956 and October 1959 pilots of seven nations* flew one or the other of the two F11F-1F prototypes.

Both Japan and West Germany declared the Super Tiger to be their preferred choice before changing to the F-104 due to political justifications.

One such political "kill" was a suicide... Grumman test pilot (and sales rep) Corky Meyer, in his book on the F11F-1F, states that after the December 17 1957 initial German "selection" of the Super Tiger Leroy Grumman told the USN he wouldn't accept the German contract, in order to focus on the US programs then in competition (A2F [A-6] Intruder {693 eventually}, OV-1 Mohawk {380}, F9F-8T [TF-9J] Cougars {400}, and the just awarded W2F-1 [E-2A] Hawkeye {313 eventually}) and continuing production of the S-2 Tracker and HU-16 Albatross.

Grumman ended up winning all 4, which was Leroy Grumman's reason for backing out of the German competition (he worried that the US DOD, which at that time had a policy of making sure everyone got some work to preserve the aviation sector's capability of rapidly "ramping up production" in case of war, would give one of those to another company if Grumman was "too fat").

When Corky found out about this later, he asked Mr. Grumman "Why did you let us continue trying to win the German contract for a year after that?" to which Leroy replied "We knew that you couldn't get that kind of experience for Grumman's future anywhere else in the world".

In the years following Grumman made a lot of sales of several different aircraft types to a number of nations - that sales experience did indeed prove valuable.


* the article I'm paraphrasing neither mentions which nations nor states whether the US is included or kept out of the "7 nations" total, but in Corky Meyer's book on the F11F-1F he names WGer, Switzerland, Canada, Japan, and France as having flown it.
 
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Mirage also used slow firing heavy cannon that were not ideal for air superiority.
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The M61 Vulcan takes half a second to spin up to full speed, so the first second of firing means 68 rounds. The revolver DEFA 552 fires at full speed instantaneously, some 25 rounds in the first second, or 50 rounds given most fighters with DEFA or Aden cannons carry a pair of guns.
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Spot on. Le Fana de l'aviation (and the IDF/AF) fully agree with the second statement by @Rule of cool

The Israelis demolished a few hundred arab aircraft with DEFA guns: on the ground and in air combat.
 
Arab pilots didn't perform a lot of evasive tactics. The Israelis got a vast majority of kills on targets that never knew they were attacked until it was too late, so it didn't matter much what caliber to use.
 
The vast majority of air to air kills throughout history didn't know they were being attacked until they took hits. Even those who were actively dogfighting didn't actually get shot down during the fancy flying but after they broke off and were trying to escape.

As for the lethality of the Vulcan vs the DEFA, neither is as lethal as a Sidewinder or Sparrow although they might give the Falcon a run for its money. That said apparently the British thought the 30mm Aden had more hitting power than the podded Vulcan on the phantom in addition to the other problems of the podded gun.
 
So if the RAAF did get the 30 F104A order would they go all in for the F104? Or perhaps this sqn would allow the RAAF to hold off for a few years and get something in 1965. Maybe they could combine the Sabre and Canberra replacement with F4s or something.

In the early 70s the RAAF didn't want to keep the leased F4Es because it believed that it would push the Mirage replacement back many years. Perhaps something similar could come into play with the F104A and Sabre fleet.
 
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I can't imagine that was around in 1955 and 1960 when the RAAF was looking at the F104. Any later than that and virtually everything is better than the F104.
 
I know its a bit off topic, but F-4 was once being prmoted with the Lavi-engine to replace J79s. I don't understand Lockheed not offering the same engine on Starfighters. Now that would have been something to promote for dogfighting. Sparrow/Aspide/Skyflash under the wings, Sidewinders under the chin, tip tanks to add time on station, and the Vulcan to shore up leakers.
 
MadRat said:
I know its a bit off topic, but F-4 was once being prmoted with the Lavi-engine to replace J79s. I don't understand Lockheed not offering the same engine on Starfighters. Now that would have been something to promote for dogfighting. Sparrow/Aspide/Skyflash under the wings, Sidewinders under the chin, tip tanks to add time on station, and the Vulcan to shore up leakers.
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Any F-104 Starfighters which carried the Sparrow or Aspide AAMs such as the Aeritalia F-104S required sacrificing the M61 Vulcan to make room for the missile guidance avionics.
 
MadRat said:
I know its a bit off topic, but F-4 was once being prmoted with the Lavi-engine to replace J79s. I don't understand Lockheed not offering the same engine on Starfighters. Now that would have been something to promote for dogfighting. Sparrow/Aspide/Skyflash under the wings, Sidewinders under the chin, tip tanks to add time on station, and the Vulcan to shore up leakers.
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Probably because by then the F104 was such an old and limited design that they knew nobody would be interested. The cost of development would have been hefty as would the cost of the conversion and update, which has to be compared to the cost of a new fighter, or even used versions of fundamentally better fighters.
 
Rule of cool said:
As for the lethality of the Vulcan vs the DEFA, neither is as lethal as a Sidewinder or Sparrow although they might give the Falcon a run for its money. That said apparently the British thought the 30mm Aden had more hitting power than the podded Vulcan on the phantom in addition to the other problems of the podded gun.
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Interesting. The RAAF also looked at the North American F-100B, which we know better as F-107 with a pair of 'T171' cannon, which we know better as Vulcan. By my back-of-a-fag packet sums, the two Vulcans (and I assume this is once they had spun up) had a weight of fire of 44lb/sec whereas four ADEN on a Lightning produced 48.5lb/sec.

As I said, rough calcs, but it's the first instance I have seen or heard of a fighter aircraft with a pair of Vulcans which made me wonder if this was a typo in the document.

Chris
 
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I found some walkarounds and the cannon is covered. Italy did use an IRST, so thats a nice touch.

www.rajce.idnes.cz

Lockheed F-104S-ASA-M Starfighter – Walkaround - užitečné fotografie letecké techniky nejen pro modeláře – album na Rajčeti

Lockheed F-104S-ASA-M Starfighter italského letectva v Múzeu letectva Košice (pobočka Slovenského technického múzea v Košiciach), červen 2014 (fotografoval Jaro Mucha).
www.rajce.idnes.cz www.rajce.idnes.cz

Per the following link post-1988 ASA program allowed for reinstated Vulcan: https://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f104_33.html

Deleting gun ammunition allowed space for 121 gallons of fuel
 
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