Raab-Katzenstein Designations

Apophenia

Apophenia

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Fritz Raab worked first with Dietrich (under Richard Dietrich, Raab was also test pilot) before forming Raab-Katzenstein with former Dietrich collegue Kurt Katzenstein.

Photo of 'Erka 25/32' aka the Raab-Katzenstein RK 25/32 is from Flugsport Nr.17, 17 August 1932.

Note: this topic previously included AEKKEA-Raab and Dietrich Designations. These have now been moved:

AEKKEA http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12469.0.html

Dietrich-Gobiet/Dietrich Flugzeugwerke Designations
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12470.0.html
 

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Re: AEKKEA, Raab-Katzenstein, and Dietrich designations

Raab-Katzenstein Flugzeugwerk GmbH (RaKa) Designations

Also see:

Dietrich-Gobiet/Dietrich Flugzeugwerke Designations

AEKKEA-Raab Designations
______________________________________________________

Raab-Katzenstein Glider (Raab-Katzenstein Glider - 1921?)

Raab-Katzenstein L.U.G.C. VI - (SIRIS)

Raab-Katzenstein RK 1 - 1926 Schwalbe (Swallow) biplane
- RK 1 : Tandem 2-seat cantilever biplane sports aircraft, x 42
- Prototype rebuilt from Dietrich DP XI, orig. desig. Kl.1 (or K.I)
-- Kl.1a: 1 x 80 hp Siemens-Halske Sh 11 7-cyl.; span 8.00 m; x 25
-- Kl.1b: 1 x 110 hp Siemens-Halske Sh 12 9-cyl. radial; x 7
-- Kl.1c: 1 x (??) hp Anzani (some sources say still Sh 12); x 10
-- Kl.1d: 1 x 200 hp Wright J-5 Whirlwind radial; single-seat(?)*
-- * Upgraded Kl.1a (?); see: luftfahrtarchive reply #22
-- Kl.1e: Upgraded Kl.1a airframe; aka Rheinische FR 2 (qv
-- Kl.1f: Upgraded Kl.1a; airframe; no other details
-- Kl.1g: Upgraded Kl.1a airframe; no other details
-- Pintsch Schwalbe II; built by Julius Pintsch, AG, Vienna
-- Rheinische FR 2 Schwalbe; aka Friedrichshafen FR 2
-- FR 2: aka Kl.1e, revisions by R-K test pilot Otto Peschke
-- FR 2: 1 x 150 hp Siemens-Halske Sh 14A radial, span 8.00 m
-- FR 2: NACA cowling; filleted lower wing, spatted main u/c

Raab-Katzenstein RK 2 Pelikan (Pelican), 2-seat biplane trainer, 7-cyl radial (16 to China)
- aka RK II or K II, K IIa (eg D-0841), K IIb (eg D-0816), K IIc (eg D-0834)
-- NB: RaKa was the German Cirrus agent, hence the number of Hermes-engined RK 2s
-- http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/5956297186/ inline RK 2
-- http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/5956296998/ radial RK 2

Raab-Katzenstein RK 3 - (Project) 1926 Phönix biplane; x 1
- RK 3 : Paul Hall design; 4-seat pax biplane prototype*
- RK 3 : 1 x 125 hp Siemens & Halske Sh12 9-cyl.; span 10.70 m
-- * Intended for commuter flying & business travel uses
- RK 3 : Prototype constr. abandoned 1926 for simpler RK 8
- RK 3 : Led to later RK 10 (qv); poss related to unbuilt Adler

Raab-Katzenstein RK 4 - (Project) 192(?) single-seat fighter a/c
- RK 4 : Sketchy details avail. (usually 'potential military use')
- RK 4 : 1 x 800 hp engine (??); related to RK 13 and RK 28

Raab-Katzenstein RK 5 - (??) Falter; no further details

Raab-Katzenstein RK 6 - 1926 2-seat biplane trainer; x ~6*
- RK 6 : 2-bay biplane derived from LVG B.III via DLFW B.I
- RK 6 : 1 x 105 hp Mercedes D.I 6-cyl. inline; span 12.50 m
- RK 6 : Wooden constr.; consider interim, pending the RK 2
- RK 6a: Engine option; unclear if Mercedes D.I or Junkers L 7a
- RK 6b: Engine option; unclear if Mercedes D.I or Junkers L 7a
-- * eg: D-1061, D-1070, D-1152, D-1156

Raab-Katzenstein RK 7 - 1926 Schmetterling (Butterfly) glider
- RK 7 : Biplane built as tandem 2-seat glider, then motor-glider
-- For towing experiments; see: luftfahrtarchive reply #23
- RK 7 : (Glider) Mixed wood/steel-tube construction; span 8.50 m
- RK 7a: (Motor-Glider) 1 x 14 hp DKW 2-stroke,* span 8.00 m
-- * Possibly the 175 cc ARE 175 1-cylinder motorcycle engine?

Raab-Katzenstein RK 8 - Marabu, civil LVG C.VI conv.
- RK 8 : eg D-1114/W.Nr.40, D-1216/W.Nr.41, SIRIS
-- http://histaviation.com/rk_12_motte.html

Raab-Katzenstein RK 9 - Grasmücke (Meadow Warbler), 2-seat biplane trainer, 3-cyl Anzani
- planned as a 1928 'Volksflugzeug'
- RK 9a eg D-1446 (W.Nr.323), D-1525 (W.Nr.325), D-1575 (W.Nr.352), etc.
- Grasmücke also used as a single-seat aerial advertising aircraft

Raab-Katzenstein RK 10 - (Project) 1927 2-or-3 pax cabin biplane
- RK 10 : Small commuter a/c; RK 3 derivative; Paul Hall concept
- RK 10a: 1 x 280 hp Junkers L5 6-cylinder inline; span 10.70 m (??)
- RK 10b: 1 x 250 hp BMW IV 6-cylinder inline; span 10.70 m (??)


Raab-Katzenstein RK 11 - (Project) 1927 single-engined biz biplane
- RK 11 (I): RK 10 deriv. intended for more economical business use
- RK 11 (I): 1 x 140 hp Mercedes (Typ J4L ??); span 10.70 m (??)
- RK 11 (I): 1 x 200 hp Mercedes D.III (mil. surplus to reduce costs)
- RK 11a: Pilot under wing open cockpit, encl. cabin for 4 passeners
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/raab-katzenstein-designations.11929/#post-182890
- RK 11 (II): 1929 desig. re-use; cargo a/c design by Richard Bauer*
-- * Unclear whether RK 11 (II) had any commonality with RK 11 (I)

Raab-Katzenstein RK 12 - [Project] Motte (Moth)
- RK 12: Planned licensed DH.60 Cirrus Moth
-- 1 x ADC Cirrus, DLV consid. structure too weak
-- http://histaviation.com/rk_12_motte.html

Raab-Katzenstein RK 13 - (Project) 1927-28 experimental a/c
- RK 13 : Effectively, civilian derivative of RK 4 fighter (qv)
- RK 13 : 1 x 585 hp Bristol Jupiter 9-cyl. radial; span (??) m
- RK 13 : Meant for high-altitude flights; other development work
-- RK 13 still in design phase when work was abandoned in 1928

Raab-Katzenstein RK 14 - (Project) 1928 single-engined airliner
- RK 14 : Lower-cost Luft Hansa airliner concept; Paul Hall design
- RK 14 : For medium-haul routes & routes with lower seat demand
- RK 14a: 1 x 600 hp Junkers L55 V12 engine; span (??) m
- RK 14b: 1 x 600–650 hp BMW VI V12 engine; span (??) m

Raab-Katzenstein RK 15 - (Project) 1928 single-seat sportplane
- RK 15 : High performance commercial a/c; design by Paul Hall
- RK 15a: 1 x 600 hp Junkers L55 V12 engine; span (??) m
- RK 15b: 1 x 600–650 hp BMW VI V12 engine; span (??) m
- RK 15 : Prob. derived from RK 4/RK 13; poss. for military use

Raab-Katzenstein RK 16 - (Project) advertising a/c
- RK 16: 2-seat, 4-engined* 3-bay biplane, span 20 m
-- Intended for illuminated advert signage at night
-- * 4 x 4 Benz Bz 4, BMW IV , or Junkers L5 inlines
-- http://histaviation.com/rk_16.html

Raab-Katzenstein RK 17 - (Project) twin-engined airliner concept
- RK 17 : Meant for Luft Hansa branchline use; Paul Hall design
- RK 17 : 1 pilot + 4-to-5 pax in cabin; no Luft Hansa interest
- RK 17 : 2 x Junkers L5 water-cooled 6-cyl inlines; span (??) m

Raab-Katzenstein RK 18 - (??)
Raab-Katzenstein RK 19 - (??)
Raab-Katzenstein RK 20 - (??)
Raab-Katzenstein RK 21 - (??)

Raab-Katzenstein RK 22 - Opel-Raab-Katzenstein (RK 9 with solid-propellant Sander rocket)
- an 'Ente' canard design (RK number unknown) was also proposed but Rabb and Opel fell out.

Raab-Katzenstein RK 23 - (??)
Raab-Katzenstein RK 24 - (??)

Raab-Katzenstein RK 25 - aka 'Erka', Argus As8
- RK 25 'Ruhrland' racing aircraft, aka Raka 25
- RK 25/32, 2-seat, low-wing monoplane racer/tourer, presum. same as RK 32
- NB: Anatole Gobiet acquired rights and sold them to Sweden

Raab-Katzenstein RK 26 - Tigerschwalbe (Tiger Swallow[tail]), 2-seat biplane trainer
- Raab-Katzenstein F 1 Tigerschwalbe
- Raab-Katzenstein RK 26a
- ASJA Sk.10 Tigerschwalbe, rights acquired from Anatole Gobiet
- Pintsch TigerSchwalbe
- Fieseler Fi-1, D-1616/D-EVUK (W.Nr.103)

Raab-Katzenstein RK 27 - 1928 40m Parseval blimp, D-RK27, 2 x 35 hp/26 kW Anzani

Raab-Katzenstein RK 28 - - [Project] 2- seat trainer
- RK 28: 1 x Bristol Jupiter, no other details
-- 'RK 28' also often seen as a typo for RK 26

Raab-Katzenstein RK 29 - 1930 touring biplane, Sh 14, D-1898 (W.Nr.112), D-1899 (W.Nr.113)

Raab-Katzenstein RK 30 - (??)
Raab-Katzenstein RK 31 - (??)

Raab-Katzenstein RK 32 - (SIRIS), 1932, 120hp Argus-powered, related to RK 25 (?)
- NB: RK 25 D-1489 (W.Nr.85) is also listed as a "RK 25/32" or "Raab-Katzenstein 25-32"

At some point Raab Katzenstein (RaKa/Kassel) also built a Bleriot XI replica (W.Nr.967).

Also, does anyone know anything about DH.60 Moths being licenced by RaKa? Is this just the RK 29 Deutsche Motte?
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1927/1927 - 0735.html
 
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Re: AEKKEA, Raab-Katzenstein, and Dietrich designations

Apophenia said:
Photo of 'Erka 25/32' aka the Raab-Katzenstein RK 25/32 is from Flugsport Nr.17, 17 August 1932.
Click to expand...

Nice aircraft!
Any 3V drawing available?
Thanks in advance!

PS: Just find this side view of the open cockpit RK-25 version on:
http://cnum.cnam.fr/CGI/fpage.cgi?4KY28.116/327/100/588/0/0
 

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Raab-Katzenstein 3-views

Thanks Retrofit. The RK-25 looks quite different without its canopies!

Here's a few 3-view drawings
 

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As an addition: Rk 11a : Project for a civil single engined aircraft for 4 passengers.
Drawing from Wolfgang Wagner "Der deutsche Luftverkehr - Die Pionierjahre 1919 - 1925",
but no other data given.
 

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Excellent find Jens! Size aside, you can still see a Pelikan relationship.
 

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Thanks for the correction Jens. I'm not sure where I got the 'parasol' idea from :eek:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ErsterFlugzeugSchlepp1927-03-15.jpg
 
Jemiba;
Is the magazine article about the restoration of the RK-7?
It was returned to Berlin, by and for the Deutsches Technikmuseum, in recent years.
 
memaerobilia said:
.. Is the magazine article about the restoration of the RK-7?
Click to expand...

No, the article is generally about the history of this company, which is quite unknown even here.
But thaks for the clue, will have a closer look during my next visit there.
 
Thank you, Jemiba;
I am not certain if the RK-7 IS restored, yet? I thought, perhaps, the German article was written because there was news of its restoration. In 2007, I arranged for the RK-7 to go back to Germany, to the Deutsches Technikmuseum, who intended to restore it. They had been trying to acquire it for some 25 years..At the time of the initial agreement, only the fuselage and tail sections were known, Later the same source located the wings and the landing gear, as well. So it MAY possibly still be in storage, awaiting its restoration schedule, in Berlin.
 

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On this page
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1929/1929-1%20-%200703.html
there is strange "high-speed" Raab-Katzenstein (2nd photo)
There is not much info in the text, except that it had Cirrus "Hermes" engine and this little info:
"The latter is a particularly clean machine and has a top speed of round about 130 m.p.h., but the landing speed is also high and would appear to be rather unsuitable for the bad ground over which the tour passes, should the necessity for a forced landing occur. It is being flown by "John Carberry.""
 

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The second picture shows the Darmstadt D.18 , and the third , a RaKa 25 .
 
Oh, yes, it's misplaced captions, thank you! Two pages early there is both airplanes on one photo, I was misguided who is who.
 
Hi,

RK-8 was itself LVG C.VI civil version
RK-10 was airplane Project with one Maybach engine
RK-12 Motte was a two-seat trainer biplane,a licence built DH Tiger Moth
RK-16 was a two-seat four engined airplane Project for advertising
RK-17 was a 4/5 passenger light transport Project,powered by one Junkers L5 engine
RK-28 was a two-seat trainer Project,powered by one Bristol Jupiter engine

http://histaviation.com/raab_katzenstein.html
 

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Re: AEKKEA, Raab-Katzenstein, and Dietrich designations

Apophenia said:
Raab-Katzenstein RK 7 - Schmetterling (Butterfly), 1927 biplane glider
Click to expand...

From Le Documant Aeronautique Marh 1926,small correction.
 

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I guess "Gleiter und Motorsegler" says it all! Obviously the Schmetterling was built as both a glider and a short-span motor-glider. A pity that the German Aviation 1919 - 1945 site doesn't specify which of the four RZ 7s were gliders or motor-gliders :confused:
 
1682086029383.png
From the 1928 Raab-Katzenstein price list I discovered the RK.1d as a single seater sports aircraft with a 200 hp Whirlwind.
First, it seems as if this might have been a further development of the Kl.1. The "1d" continues perfect with the last used Kl.1c.
However, it is interesting, that the price list shows this aircraft as RK.1d and not as Kl.1d, while the same list uses also Kl.1a to Kl.1c
Next is the enormous price of 38.000 RM, while the Kl.1 was sold for about 15,000 RM (surely with less powerfull engines).
Finally the RK.1 is offered as a single seater, while the Kl.1 were double seaters.
So it seems, that the RK.1 differ in several aspects despite the engine selection from the Kl.1 line?!?
 
Apophenia said:
I guess "Gleiter und Motorsegler" says it all! Obviously the Schmetterling was built as both a glider and a short-span motor-glider. A pity that the German Aviation 1919 - 1945 site doesn't specify which of the four RZ 7s were gliders or motor-gliders :confused:
Click to expand...
The RK7 Schmetterling was developed initially as an experimental engineless aircraft for aircraft towing experiments in 1927. It performed the first towing flights in March 1927, when an RK7 was towedby an RK6 in Kassel. Such towing flights later became an attraction at many air shows in Germany until the 30s. Following the Geneve Air Show, where the RK6/RK7 were presented, the U.S. Army bought one combination of RK6/RK7 for tests in the USA (in the 90s the RK7 was still to be seen as a survivor in Oshkosh. Meanwhile it returned to Germany and is currently stored in Berlin). So, most probably a charge of five RK7s might have been built. Some sources also mention an Italian RK7, however, I have never seen a document or photo of that.

Later Paul Hall added a 14 hp DKW engine to the RK7 as RK7a as shown in the above French newspaper article. The complete forward section had to be modified for that including the location of the pilot seat. I just know a single photo of such a RK7a without any registration, while I have photos of all four German registered RK7s showing them as a glider. However, might be, that one of them was used for the engine modification, might also be, that the RK7a was a sixth (or with the Italian one) seventh built RK7. By the way ... interesting, that the RK7 is not offered in the 1928 price list.

If someone finds out more, I would be interested.
 
Thanks luftfahrtarchive. I've now tidied up the RK 1 and RK 7 entries.

The realization that the Kl.1e and Rheinische FR 2 are the same thing has me wondering about the Julius Printsch-built Schwalbe II. Might that have held either the Kl.1f or Kl.1g designation?
 
I don't know, if we already discussed the Raab-Katzenstein type designators here?
Most RaKa types were designated RKxx.
Just the first type was designated KLxx

Initially the development of the KL.1 was a private venture of Paul Hall and Andreas Faehrmann.
Surely these two brought the "KL" designator to life before they joint Raab-Katzenstein, I guess.

Does anyone have an idea, what the "KL" designation means?
 
luftfahrtarchive said:
Does anyone have an idea, what the "KL" designation means?
Click to expand...

As their first design (or really, adaptation), I suspect that 'Kl' (note lower case) may have stood for Kassel. The implication is that the Raab-Katzenstein name was established after the Kassel-Waldau plant location was selected.
 
Apophenia said:
As their first design (or really, adaptation), I suspect that 'Kl' (note lower case) may have stood for Kassel. The implication is that the Raab-Katzenstein name was established after the Kassel-Waldau plant location was selected.
Click to expand...
That's a most probable explanation, Apophenia! Hall implemented the redesign of the DP.XI wing in his private home at Kassel, when he had left Dietrich Flugzeugbau and before he joint Raab-Katzenstein. Probably he named his design initially Kassel 1. But to make it clear for the others ... just speculation!
 
Don't know, if this is ok for the admins ... (feel free to delete it, if not)

... however, I have just finished my review about Dietrich / Raab-Katzenstein / Gerner
Thanks a lot to those of you, who helped me to answer some of the thousands of open questions
... sorry, just available in German
... currently available in Germany, international marketing will start in June.

Folie1.JPG Folie2.JPG
 

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From Wikipedia,

RK 3 was a four seat sequiplane transport project,powered by one
Siemens & Halske Sh 12 engine
RK 4 was a single seat fighter project,powered by one 800 hp engine
RK 5 Falter was unknown,but may be another light aircraft
RK 10 was a two or three seat passenger aircraft with 280 hp Junkers L5 (RK 10a)
with 250 hp BMW.IV (RK 10b),project
RK 11 was a busniess aircraft,with 140 hp Mercedes engine or
with 200 hp Mercedes D.III engine,project 1929
RK 13 was a high-altitude test aircraft with 585 hp Bristol Jupiter,project
RK 14 was an eight seat airliner,with 600 hp BMW VI (RK 14) or
with Junkers L55 (RK 14a),project
RK 15 was a single-seat sports aircraft with BMW VI or Junkers L5,possible
to use for military duty,project

de.wikipedia.org

Raab-Katzenstein-Flugzeugwerke – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org de.wikipedia.org
 
Thanks hesham. Do you a source for your suggestion that the RK 5 was a light aircraft?
 

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