Postwar Arsenal de l'aéronautique ("Arsenal") projects

[Jemiba]

Riddle solved, just by using a suitable source ...
Should have had another look at "Gerfaut et Griffon" "Avia Editions) earlier, there's the
attached photo, giving all needed answers:

 

[Jemiba]

Finished my attempt to merge the best available from the world of drawings and of photos, as,
just as in other cases, those general arrangement drawings are a not quite precise with regards
to details: The upper part of the windshield is more curved, the delta wing is pointed, the nose gear
is different and so on. That's no criticism about those drawings, just a reminder, that general arrangement
drawings are just, what the name implies and no precise and accurate source for details.
If I got it wrong on one point or another, please tell me, interpretation of photos often is a source for
errors.

 

[hesham]

Great drawing my dear Jemiba.

 

[Stargazer]

Great Jens! So glad about your dedication to put the rare projects in planform!

 

[foiling]

Yes, great drawing. Thanks Jemiba.

 

[Jemiba]

Thanks for your agreement, here's the corrected drawing of the 2301. One question is still remaining,
at least for me. Some sources state, that two such gliders were realised (e.g. Gérard Hartmann on
Hydroretro), others say, that the 1301 was modified into the swept wing 2301. The latter seems more
plausible to me, as photos are proving that both had the same registration F-WFUZ. Nevertheless, the
photo from "Gerfaut & Griffon", showing the canard configuration is said, that this was "one of the very
last configurations tested on the sailplane." Wouldn't that mean, that the 2301 was re-configured again
to the delta wing ?

 

[hesham]

Wow,great drawing my dear Jemiba.

 

[Jemiba]

And here's the third variant, the one with canards. It's principally based on the single photo, so
I consulted photos and drawings of the Gerfaut I, which had to my opinion a very similar tailplane
in a similar position. The canards seems to have had a clipped delta planform, for span and shape
I used a drawing of an early Gerfaut layout, which had canards, too, as a pattern. Other differences
to the "standard" 1301 seem to have been limited to the deletion of the pitots in front of the cockpit,
at the fin and at the wing tips, which were replaced by the long pitot with the kinked end at the nose.
And the faired over slot for the tailplane in the fin, of course.
Comments, clues and critics welcome !

 

[fightingirish]

In the March 2014 issue of the French magaazine 'Le Fana de l'Aviation' (N 532 - Mars 2014), there is an article about the Nord 1402 Gerfaut and the Ars.1301 .

 

[ivran]

I need identification of this jet please

 

[ivran]

and this pictures

 

[Jemiba]

Arsenal (SFECMAS) 1402, pre-project to the later Nord 1402 Gerfaut.

 

[ivran]

Thenks verry much

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

It's dorky looking!

 

[hesham]

From Decollage 10/1946,

here is a hypothetically VG.70 artist drawing.

 

[hesham]

From Ailes 9/2/1952,

here is a Maritime patrol aircraft Project,designed by Arsenal in 1946,called ASM.6.

 

[hesham]

From L+K 14/1993,

here is a Supersonic experimental Project from Arsenal,based on DFS-346.

 

[Apophenia]

... a Supersonic experimental Project from Arsenal,based on DFS-346.

Wind tunnel models for the Arsenal Ars.2301.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Other Arsenal projects included the VB 10, the VG 70 and the VG 90.

 

[Maveric]

?

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1959.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
The Arsenal VG-70 jet-powered, swept-wing aircraft was utilized as a technology demonstrator over its short flying career for France.

"The VG-70 was put up for public display at the 1946 Paris Air Show and its formal ground testing began the following year which led to a first flight recorded on June 23rd, 1948. The aircraft performed admirably well despite the low output power produced by the Jumo engine and became just the second French-originated, jet-powered aircraft to fly. Despite the promising nature of the VG-70, its flying career was extremely short - limited to just five flights in all - as the project was formally ended during 1949. Attention had turned to an all-new jet-powered design utilizing the lessons learned in the development of the VG-70 for this development became something of an aerodynamic and mechanical dead-end - the airframe held little modification flexibility in terms of taking on newer, larger engine installations that offered increased output power.
It was intended that a related design, the VG-71, carry a Rolls-Royce "Derwent" turbojet engine of 3,500 lb thrust output but this would have forced an entire revision of the VG-70 fuselage - a project not worth the commitment in time and funding. The VG-80 was to carry a Rolls-Royce "Nene" but this initiative also fell to naught - leading to the VG-90, a jet-powered, carrier-based interceptor development."

http://www.luftfahrtmuseum-hannover.de/images/wehrmann/Arsenal VG-70.pdf
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/xplane/vg70/
https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=1501

 

[blackkite]

Hi VG-71.
Source : LES AVIONS DE COMBAT FRANCAIS 1944-1960 Ⅰ-CHASSE-ASSAUT Jean CUNY, DOCAVIA EDITIONS LARIVIERE 28

 

[blackkite]

Hi! VG-90 jet-powered carrier-based interceptor.
http://www.luftfahrtmuseum-hannover.de/images/wehrmann/Arsenal VG-90.pdf

 

[blackkite]

Hi! VG-70,-71,-80 and -90. (Almost same scale.)
Please pay attention to the changes in the shape of the air intake.

 

[blackkite]

Do you know what this project was?
Wing tip engines seems to be ramjet.
Variation of VG-93?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/vg-93-and-vg-94-jpg.11205/

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Arsenal VG90 and competitors.

 

[Jemiba]

... Variation of VG-93? ...

Indeed, according to Jean Cuny, "Les Avions De Combat Francais", Docavia, those two variants
of attaching the ramjets were proposed. With regards to stability problems in the case of variations
of delivered thrust, the attachement under the wing, closer to the center line, may actually have been
better solution, I think.

 

[blackkite]

Hi VG90.
Source : LES AVIONS DE COMBAT FRANCAIS 1944-1960 Ⅰ-CHASSE-ASSAULT, Jean CUNY, DOCAVIA EDITIONS LARIVIERE 28

 

[hesham]

From ; Les Avions de Combat Francais.

 

[KHambsch]

Do you know what this project was?
Wing tip engines seems to be ramjet.
Variation of VG-93?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/vg-93-and-vg-94-jpg.11205/

Hey blackkite, no doubt, by shallow angle shape of the diffusers in the front of the engines, they're ramjets. Also, on the preceding page the post by Hesham, I think the engines on the wing tips are ramjets (although shaped differently) see image below. , Kevin

 

[Stargazer]

I discovered that Arsenal ARS 5501 was target drone.

Indeed. It was displayed at the 1951 Paris Salon de l'Aéronautique, although it may have been just a mockup.
The 1951 event was the only one that was held both in the Grand Palais (static display) and at Le Bourget (air demonstrations):

 

[dan_inbox]

The Arsenal ARS 5501 target drone became the Nord CT-10.

 

[PhR]

And here's the third variant, the one with canards. It's principally based on the single photo, so
I consulted photos and drawings of the Gerfaut I, which had to my opinion a very similar tailplane
in a similar position. The canards seems to have had a clipped delta planform, for span and shape
I used a drawing of an early Gerfaut layout, which had canards, too, as a pattern. Other differences
to the "standard" 1301 seem to have been limited to the deletion of the pitots in front of the cockpit,
at the fin and at the wing tips, which were replaced by the long pitot with the kinked end at the nose.
And the faired over slot for the tailplane in the fin, of course.
Comments, clues and critics welcome !

Hi Jens,
I published the detailed history of Ars 2301/1301 in my book about Gerfaut and Griffon.
To clarify the chronology, this sailplane was initially built as Ars 2301 with swept wing, and later became Ars 1301 with delta wing. Only one was built.

 

[PhR]

The Arsenal ARS 5501 target drone became the Nord CT-10.

Just a small clarification: the Ars 5501 is the answer of Arsenal to the technical program specification for category CT-10 (cible telecommandee). It never became "CT-10", it remained an Ars 5501 throughout its carrer.

 

[dan_inbox]

It is really Arsenal that became Sfecmas in 1952 then SNCAN Nord-Aviation in 1955. The missile Ars 5501 developed by Arsenal was mass produced by Nord in Châtillon and Villeurbanne, and purchased by the French, British, Italian and Swedish air forces.

 

[PhR]

It is really Arsenal that became Sfecmas in 1952 then SNCAN Nord-Aviation in 1955. The missile Ars 5501 developed by Arsenal was mass produced by Nord in Châtillon and Villeurbanne, and purchased by the French, British, Italian and Swedish air forces.

That's right, but even produced by SNCAN, it remained an Ars 5501, as written in the tail of this one:

 

[PhR]

Finished my attempt to merge the best available from the world of drawings and of photos, as,
just as in other cases, those general arrangement drawings are a not quite precise with regards
to details: The upper part of the windshield is more curved, the delta wing is pointed, the nose gear
is different and so on. That's no criticism about those drawings, just a reminder, that general arrangement
drawings are just, what the name implies and no precise and accurate source for details.
If I got it wrong on one point or another, please tell me, interpretation of photos often is a source for
errors.

Additionnal data about Ars 1301, coming from my files and from the Archives Départementales de la Haute-Garonne (AD31).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

@Justo Miranda Note this topic is in Postwar section, hence many of your posts are not appropriate. I amended the topic title to reflect this and moved affected posts to https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/arsenal-de-laéronautique-arsenal-projects.45012/