Postwar Arsenal de l'aéronautique ("Arsenal") projects

[Jemiba]

- The Arsenal 2301 was a modified 1301 with swept wings instead of a delta,
an engineless glider.

The Arsenal 5501 I don't know

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Arsenal 520 :single seat mid-wing intercopter project,powered by
one Turbomeca Atar 101 B turbojet engine, mounted at above
the fuselage and the air intake was in the rear of cockpit,the
estimated speed was 1.8 Mach and 15000m altitude.

Arsenal VG-2301 and Arsenal ARS-5501 (I can't know it is aircraft or target).

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Arsenal 520:

 

[hesham]

Also from my dear Jemiba,

Arsenal 1401 :was three engined single seat shlouder swept wing
intercopter project,the engines; one mounted below
the fuselage and two as wing tips.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Ok, Hesham, could you try for a medium size? say 800 x 600 pixels or thereabouts?

 

[Flitzer]

Brilliant stuff Hesham and Jemiba...

Thanks a million.

A set of French profiles is a definite future project....now where did I put that colour swatch file?...lol.

Cheers
Peter
;D ;D

 

[Archibald]

Another Arsenal project, the VG-93.
The VG-90 was a VG-70 derivative with a Nene and lateral intakes. It was planned as naval interceptor for the - never coming- PA-28 clemenceau (no, not the rusty thing we tried to send to India this one was the R-98). competitors were the NC-1080 and Nord-2200.
the three planes were disasters, over four aircrafts build, three crashed killing their pilots. Both VG-90 crashed in MAy 1950 and February 1952.
The VG-93 was a late variant with ramjets on the wingtips
:-\

Here's a pics via prototypes.com via "Les avions de combats francais"
http://xplanes.free.fr/stato/french_ramjet/arsenal_vg93_01.jpg

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Arsenal 1910 :was single seat delta wing interceptor Project,
powered by one Turbomeca Marbore II turbojet
engine.

I discovered that Arsenal ARS 5501 was target drone.

 

[hesham]

From my dear Jemiba,

there was a lot of projects for french fighters aircraft during this period,
I will speak about fighters only.
Arsenal VG.60 :was single seat low wing fighter project,powered by one
Junkers Jumo 213 piston engine and estimated speed was 700km/h.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Arsenal VG-80 :was developed from VG-70 with 1700 kg Rolls-Royce
Nene turbojet engine,as single seat fighter project,it had estimated
speed 875 km/h.

 

[hesham]

Some naval fighters projects,

Arsenal VG.91 :was a single seat fighter derivative from VG.90 but fitted with
Atar 101 C turbojet engine;
Span 12.604m
Lenght 13.440m
Estimated
Speed 953 km/h.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Arsenal VG.92 :was also developed from VG.90 as single seat naval fighter but
powered by one Nene II turbojet engine and had the same dimensions,Span
13.604m and Length 13.440m and Estimated Speed 921 km/h.The engine had
a maximum thrust 2800 kg.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Arsenal VG.93 :was single seat fighter project,powered also by Nene II turbojet
engine,it had the same dimensions and Estimated Speed was 1095 km/h,the
drawing was appeared it may be fitted with assist engines.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Arsenal VG.94 :was single seat naval fighter project,but powered by
one Nene 104 which was gave a maximum thrust 3100 kg,and Span
13.604m, Length 14.150m and Estimated speed 1100 km/h.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

we know very well that the Arsenal VG.50 was fighter project based on
VG.32,but in the book; Les Avions de Combat Francais,Volume II,and in
the 1944/45 B6/R6 competition for long-range heavy bomber,the tenders
were; Arsenal VG.50,Nord N.1800,SNCAC NC.200,SNCASE SE.2000 and
SNCASO SO.71.

That is make me very confuse,did Arsenal re-allocate the VG.50 to anther
design ?.

 

[Caravellarella]

Possibly Hesham, but I'm confused; isn't the SNCASE SE.2000 in your list the original design for the SNCASE SE.2010 Armagnac airliner ????

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[toura]

My poor Hesham !
It is VERY COMPLICATED !!!!
Me I have an Arsenal vg 50 passengers transport !!!!

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dears Caravellarella and Toura,

but nothing we gain,in Wikipedia,I found anther article about the same
subject,may be it will help.

(The project SO.71 was developed to meet the specifications B6/R61. In this competition, which took place in 1944/1945, the project was opposed SNCASO among other North 1800, SNCAC NC.200 at SNCASE SE.2000 and Arsenal VG.50. SNCASO for this project is the study of basa SO.70, started under the German occupation. It consisted of a four-engine long-haul whose studies and the construction of two prototypes had been the subject of two formal markets (2092/43 and 4477/44).
Despite its significant armament, the design seemed obsolete vis-à-vis the project proposed by the SNCAN. The project was therefore dismissed and suspended credit end of 1946.).

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCASO_SO.71

 

[Apophenia]

toura's scan is from http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/arsenal_de_l_aeronautique.pdf

That L’Arsenal de l’aéronautique article mentions the VG 50 transatlantic project. If I understand correctly, the original VG 50 was to be a "four-engined" aircraft powered by 2000 hp Clerget 16H valveless turbo-diesels. Two Clerget engines were tested at Orléans-Bricy in June 1940.

In reality, the "four-engined" VG 50 was to be an eight-engined aircraft. Vernisse planned the eight Clerget 16Hs to be mounted in tandem pairs driving contra-rotating propellers through concentric propeller shafts. The goal, I infer, was to have the power of eight engines but the frontal area of only four. (The same solution was later applied to the twin-engined VG-10 project and built VB-10 fighter.)

Is it possible that Arsenal's answer to B6/R61 was a militarized version of that VG 50 airliner?

 

[roadrunner2]

where can I find plan of this 2 gliders?
I've see them but dont remember where....
below a photo of the Ars 2301, the 1301 is the same aircraft with a swepwing instead the delta.

 

[Stargazer]

After looking at the picture, I realised we already had something in another topic, so I merged the two for now.

 

[dan_inbox]

below a photo of the Ars 2301, the 1301 is the same aircraft with a swepwing instead the delta.

Hmm. It is the reverse.

 

[Jemiba]

where can I find plan of this 2 gliders?

If you can wait until about tomorrow evening, I think I'll have at least basic drawings of both
versions, although no "plans", which would be suitable to be easily transferred maybe into a
flying model. I've already made them years ago, but they aren't of a kind, that would dare
to post today. : So, I decided to rework them completely.
As an example the nearly finished side view of the 1301.

 

[roadrunner2]

Great.

 

[richard]

Arsenal projested a supersonic rocket fighter inspired by the german D.F.S 346 .
The SFECMAS 2301 was a full scale flying mockup , later fitted with a delta wing .


Here the first step between the D.F.S 346 and the Gerfaut :

 

[Stargazer]

Ok, here are the drawings, main sources were Fayer "Les Prototypes des Aviation Francaise" and
Kaplan/Ricco "Gerfaut et Griffon".

Precious work! Thanks a lot for your efforts.

 

[roadrunner2]

Fabulous !!
many thanks

 

[Jemiba]

I should add, that the two pages in the Fayer book are describing both variants under just
one heading "Arsenal 2301/SFECMAS 1301", giving just one figure for length and wing span.
Fuselage and tail seems not to have been changed, span seems to be very similar, to my
opinion the swept wing of the 1301 had just a little bigger wingspan, but this impression
may be wrong. If someone has precise data for both variants, I would like to incorporate
them into the drawings.

 

[roadrunner2]

I think the fuselage section was circular. Like teh DSF-346. The 1301 was only a french glider version of it.

 

[Jemiba]

Hm, you may be right, that's a point I tried to check, when I had got the Fayer book.
I compared the fuselage width and height, with cockpit length as the constant factor and the
partial frontal view seemed to confirm this. Took it as granted now, but looking at the photo
from directly ahead and above (from http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/332082-silhouette-challenge-1417.html)
the fuselage actually looks wider. The relation to the DFS 346 may be valid, although similarity
would have been only superficial, as AFAIK the DFS 346 was a full metal construction, whereas
the 2301/1301 were built entirely from wood.
I'll check again, additionally cluse or photos, dimension are welcome !

 

[Jemiba]

Had a look at the frontal view in Fayers book again and I'm pretty sure now, that the cross
section actually IS rounder, than in my drawing. But is it really circular ? Honestly, I'm
not sure anymore. As the undersides of the wings are just visible and taking into account
the attitude on the ground, the photo probably was taken from slightly below the central
axis and this could lead to the impression of an oval cross section. On the other hand,
an oval cross section can look like a circular one, if the photo is taken from a close
distance. Any advise ?

 

[c460]

Given that the purpose of the design, I think that the engineers would have kept the fuselage shape as simple as possible.
Moreover Arsenal was developing ramjet projects, which logically have a circular cross section. And the more or less contemporary SO-M.1 and NC.271 experimental gliders also had a circular main section as far as I remember.
None of this is a proof, but I would lean towards circular section, which seems compatible with the pictures.

 

[Jemiba]

I agree, it's the most likely explanation. Many thanks for your support !
Have updated the drawings, after nearly falling prey to the deception, that this would
mean an exactly circular profile in the frontal view. But some doubts remained and thanks
to an "interesting", "very important" and "urgent" meeting : , I had enough time to think
about it. Judging the side view compared to the upper side view, all fuselage frames could
well have been circular, but not mounted concentrically on the same axis. It's the same
on most modern airliners. It's logical, but obviously, I very rarely thought about it !

 

[roadrunner2]

I think it could be interesting....
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=76238

 

[Jemiba]

Well, I've expected this ! It's always the same ...

Good find indeed, judging type and style those are manufacturers drawings !
Well, given span seems to have been that of the 1301, I've misjudged the position
of the wing (too far rearward), tips of wing and tailplane are rectangular and the
tailplane is mounted lower ... have already made bigger mistakes ! ;D

 

[Stargazer]

Well, I've expected this ! It's always the same ...

Funny, the guys on that other forum said exactly the same thing!!!

Translation:

For anyone interested, there are plans for the Arsenal 1301 and 2301 at the bottom of the page.
Not necessarily very accurate, as the fuselage section ought to be circular I gather, but a good basis all the same.
[link to this here page...]

(...)

He will have to rework the plans for the 1301 and 2301, as we don't agree on the fuselage's section...
I'll be posting what I have this afternoon...

(...)

I had a feeling something was cooking!!!

(...)

If you're real nice, I'll show you a three-view plan of the 1301 from André Turcat's test flight report

Just kidding, I'll show it to you as soon as I can photograph it. Let's say... tomorrow.

So Jens, it's actually your own work, albeit imperfect, that motivated these guys to address the question and to provide an accurate factory plan. Well done!

 

[Jemiba]

It was a perfect cooperation between the two fora, just the way, things should always go !
Next step will be, to complete the basic plans with all the details from those photos around
and then we should have portrayed this type as good as possible.
One day, we'll got them all !

 

[Jemiba]

Back in the moment trying to merge the drawing we got via roadrunner with
the details from the available photos, I've stumbled over this photo from http://forum.avionslegendaires.net/viewtopic.php?t=3982&p=40348.
To my opinion, the tailplane is smaller and set higher on the fin and is this a canard
under the cockpit ?

 

[Stargazer]

Tailplane in this one photo is indeed different.

As for the would-be canard, I'm more of the opinion that there may have been an inscription on the fuselage that was erased from the photo. Just my two cents...

 

[Jemiba]

Was my thought, too, but as the registration was blurred with red colour, it would be logical,
that for other inscriptions the same colour would have been used. Additionally, I don't know
any other photo of this type, where the glider carried an inscription there.

I think, we should say here, referring to an old film title : richard, please take on !