Not sure the info in that link checks out. For instance, the statement that the higher weight of the M1 comes from more armour is probably correct, but doesn't account for the fact that much of it is going to be for a 4th crew member that the K2 simply doesn't have. And the claims about muzzle velocity are flatly contradicted by well-sourced data on Wikipedia (and bearing in mind that the K2 gun is 55cal long while the Abrams uses a L/44, why wouldn't mv be at least competitive?). Rate of fire? Can a human loader really sustain 15rpm over the course of a prolonged battle, with the tank moving over rough ground at high speed, or is that a short-time performance attainable only at a stand-still on the firing range?
Polish Tank Modernization Program
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Let's just say that they might promise many things (typically saying what the customer might want to hear) but the really is often very different...
Figures such as rate of fire are arguable meaningless. Do you really expect a battle is like a video game with hundreds of enemy being engaged one after the other? And anyway, it would not be a prolonged battle given we're talking 40 odd rounds - so even at 15rpm, we're only talking about ~3min of so-called battle. Hardly 'prolonged'...
Few corrections to the Quora post you've linked :I think the following sums up many of the key points:
To this I would also add:
Is the K2 Black Panther a better tank or the M1A2 Abrams?
Ryan Parkinson's answer: Better for what? For the South Koreans and the terrain they operate in and the physical restraints of their military and government? Good enough to be exceptionally superior to the point of ridiculousness to anything their North Korean cousins are able to field? Requires ...qr.ae
Finally I would add (and this is just a personal opinion, though one based upon experience) that the level of after market support seemingly provided by the Sth Koreans on other systems (both airborne and ground) leaves a lot to be desired.
- In the case of Poland the M1A2 SEP V3 is already on order thus there is a benefit on focusing on single type
- The M1A2 benefits from a much larger allied and industrial base - 7 other operators including the USA (incl Europe based forces) and likely to grow soon as more Eastern European countries are seeking Abrams vs just one in the form of Sth Korea for the K2
- Further to the above, the large size/multiple operators offers greater investment potential moving forward
No, the Korean sabot rounds are not slower than 2-generations older M829A2. Only the 105mm K1/1E1/1E2 series of tanks operates rounds slower than 1,600 m/s muzzle velocity. In fact, both the older K276 and the newer K279 are faster than 1700 m/s
Also he talks about tungsten and DU rounds and their characteristics which are basically true, but he didn't consider that Korean APFSDS rounds are able to self-sharpen, ie doesn't mushroom when penetrating unlike conventional tungsten rounds; one of the biggest strength of DU rounds compared to tungsten. The actually advantage M289A3 and A4 has against K279 are superior L/D and weight, which also means more energy, but not because of muzzle velocity. As a side note, Koreans have pursued faster muzzle velocity in the past through technologies like ETCG but have soon followed suit of the Germans and went with SCDB instead. Not to forget are other technologies like composite DS.
Lastly, he mentions range but doesn't mention M1's horrible fuel economy, which I definitely would if you want to compare the two.
About your own points, I should inform you that with programs like Wilk, Poland is searching for partners to develop and produce, either a variant tailored to Polish requirements of and existing tank or their own model. What is known to me is that Poland is currently favoring cooperation with the Koreans in that regard since they are the most eager to get their product sold. From what is recently known after the visit of Polish MoND, they've also inquired the possibilities of joint development program of a wheeled ACV after being showcased and offered of K808, mentioning they are more interested in their own product rather than importing already existing ones. Of course, who knows how these deals will eventually turn out, but at least that is the current situation. Possibly, Poland licenses M1A2 instead.
Moreover, since what is actually being offered to Poland is K2PL, a vastly different variant of the tank to ROKA K2, those key differences mentioned in the Quora post are quite irrelevant in the first place. Sales of the ROKA specification base K2 has only been discussed as a contingency plan for if US disapproves sales of M1A2. We all know how that went.
Last but not least, I'm not sure where you are getting all those information regarding Korean defence product since the only major defence contract to Australia was and is the Huntsman, which isn't even delivered yet. One that I could think of is the RN Tide-class, which has seen delays, but talking about ground systems, all or most of the K9 operator seems to be happy, some even ordering additional units. Obviously I'm happy to be corrected if you have actual sources.
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Hmmm...range difference between M1A2 and K2 is all of about 25km. Hardly groundbreaking.
You assume wrongly that I am basing my comments upon Australian programs only, though I am aware of quite a few issues here including those yet to break. I am basing my comment upon multiple programs in multiple countries including those related to aircraft.
Which doesn't matter? That just means Abrams loads more fuel. That doesn't change the fact that a gas turbine is more thirsty = more fuel cost.
That doesn't really mean much if you don't give specific examples and how that is related to K2/Hyundai Rotem, etc; it makes me question what an aircraft sales program(or anything else really) has anything to do with a tank. By your metrics I can argue that the Americans "promise many things but don't deliver" giving examples like Ajax, LCS, NLOS-C, ASPIS-II and the list goes on. Obviously, I don't judge M1A2 based on the failures/delays related to programs. Hell, Ajax is even a GD product. By your logic M1 is a horrible option.
Also again, by the same logic I could argue that Koreans are superb when it comes to program support as seen by K9 foreign sales program. Obviously I wouldn't since that's only K9. Funnily enough, its still more relevant than your logic since Poland already purchased K9 chasis for Krab; at least they are satisfied enough and have more trust than you have that they are peaking into the possibilities of acquiring other defence equipments from Korea.
More importantly, there has already been a case in which K2 related technolgoies and architechture were sold overseas, to Turks namely, for them to develop Altay. At least they don't seem to have had problems you are trying to imply.
Lastly, I'm not saying there are no flaws with Korean planes or land vehicles sold abroad. There could be plenty, as you imply. My point is that your logic doesn't really represent anything related to K2 since there has only been a single case in which anything related to this vehicle was sold overseas. It's just a broad generalization based on your own impressions.
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Some further intel' from contacts close to the program is that the Poles may be looking at an eventual fleet of ~1000 M1A2s
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The Leos will probably stick around for some time while the M1A2 numbers are built up. By the time the latter are at 800+ in service, the former will have had a pretty good run. And they could always get sold on.
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Honestly, a fit loader would have issues managing 15 rpm on a flat range. In a cramped turret across country and maneurvering? Not a chance.Figures such as rate of fire are arguable meaningless. Do you really expect a battle is like a video game with hundreds of enemy being engaged one after the other? And anyway, it would not be a prolonged battle given we're talking 40 odd rounds - so even at 15rpm, we're only talking about ~3min of so-called battle. Hardly 'prolonged'...
A primary duty of a TC is to manage fatigue levels of the crew and the loader would be swapped out for the driver but you would not be likely to get 15 rpm for more than a minute or so.
I would suspect under most combat conditions rapid fire would only be needed for several targets one after another. Otherwise we're talking about a single MBT having to engage a company sized unit. Maybe back the Fulda Gap days that was a realistic scenario, but it seems less so now. Manual loading seems quicker for a limited number of engagements, but the decision is more of an organizational than tactical one - do your tank crews need the extra manpower of a loader and is it cost efficient to pay for that in terms of personnel costs and size of the vehicle? Different countries have arrived at different answers based on their needs.
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The 'loader' does much more than load the gun and a crew minus this asset is less effective.
Firefinder
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Abrams gas capacity: 504 gallons
From what I can find the K2 carry 496 gallons.
So not that much difference.
Still doesn't change the fact that it has already been proven 4 decades ago that a AGT-1500 is way more thirsty than a MB 873, both mounted on M1, connected to Allison transmission. Frankly, MB 873 has a worse SFC than Euro Powerpack(afaik) so... Obviously AGT-1500 itself have gone through series of upgrades like TIGER for instance, so citing those numbers from the 70s directly without context wouldn't make sense, but the general idea is that diesel engines are for the most part more fuel efficient than gas turbines.
That should rather mean then, that the numbers given by Greg (25 km ramge difference) are calculated under different conditions for M1A2 SEP V3 and K2.
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Poland gets first US-made M1 Abrams tanks
Polish Defense Minister Mariusz Błaszczak on Tuesday said that the first Abrams main battle tanks arrived at the Land Forces Training Center at Biedrusko. "The first of 28 Abrams tanks arrived at the Land Forces Training Center. Soon the soldiers of the Iron Division will begin training," he...
isayyo2
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Poland Buys 116 Used M1A1 Abrams Tanks From US
Poland Buys 116 Used M1A1 Abrams Tanks From US
The Polish government has ordered 116 used M1A1 Abrams main battle tanks from the United States, defense minister Mariusz Blaszczak said.
www.thedefensepost.com
Poland to buy 116 used Abrams tanks from U.S., says minister
Poland will buy 116 used Abrams tanks from the United States, the Polish defence minister said on Friday, as Warsaw strengthens its armed forces following Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
isayyo2
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Oh yes, and more than likely would be updated in the long term. The Polish site linked below and translated through Google.
Błaszczak: Zamówiliśmy 116 Abramsów w starszej wersji na bardzo preferencyjnych warunkach
Jak poinformował minister obrony Mariusz Błaszczak przy okazji przybycia do Polski pierwszych 7 wozów Abrams przeznaczonych do szkolenia, zakup 116 dodatkowych czołgów „starszej wersji" to dla Polski koszt jedynie ich rozkonserwowania oraz pakietu części zamiennych. Używane amerykańskie czołgi...
defence24-pl.translate.goog
Happy to admit that I was wrong with this news - I still think the Abrams is abetter choice though:
www.reuters.com
Poland to buy jets, tanks and howitzers from South Korea, says minister
Poland will buy 48 FA-50 fighter jets, a first instalment of 180 K2 Black Panther tanks and howitzers from South Korea, Warsaw's defence minister was quoted as saying on Friday, as the country strengthens its army because of the war in Ukraine.
isayyo2
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Damn! One heck of an orderHappy to admit that I was wrong with this news - I still think the Abrams is abetter choice though:
Poland to buy jets, tanks and howitzers from South Korea, says minister
Poland will buy 48 FA-50 fighter jets, a first instalment of 180 K2 Black Panther tanks and howitzers from South Korea, Warsaw's defence minister was quoted as saying on Friday, as the country strengthens its army because of the war in Ukraine.
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Abrams is, but the industrial deals and lower cost for K2 are attractive when Poland's pushing for a LOT of tanksHappy to admit that I was wrong with this news - I still think the Abrams is abetter choice though:
Poland to buy jets, tanks and howitzers from South Korea, says minister
Poland will buy 48 FA-50 fighter jets, a first instalment of 180 K2 Black Panther tanks and howitzers from South Korea, Warsaw's defence minister was quoted as saying on Friday, as the country strengthens its army because of the war in Ukraine.
Lower cost is arguable. More important is the comprehensive package and industry benefits, which are directly connected with Polish military and political interests. There are currently 3 other land vehicle project, either licensed or joint development based on existing Korean products being discussed.
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I’m guessing also to cover potential donations to Ukraine.Damn! One heck of an orderHappy to admit that I was wrong with this news - I still think the Abrams is abetter choice though:
Poland to buy jets, tanks and howitzers from South Korea, says minister
Poland will buy 48 FA-50 fighter jets, a first instalment of 180 K2 Black Panther tanks and howitzers from South Korea, Warsaw's defence minister was quoted as saying on Friday, as the country strengthens its army because of the war in Ukraine.
I’m also guessing the FA-50 is much easier to transfer over to from F-16s than MiG-29s.
isayyo2
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I doubt any of these new toys would go to Ukraine. Poland is raising their defense budget to 3% of their GDP now, and is hellbent on replacing every bit of Warsaw Pact era gear and expanding the size of their armed forces by several hundred thousand personal.I’m guessing also to cover potential donations to Ukraine.Damn! One heck of an orderHappy to admit that I was wrong with this news - I still think the Abrams is abetter choice though:
Poland to buy jets, tanks and howitzers from South Korea, says minister
Poland will buy 48 FA-50 fighter jets, a first instalment of 180 K2 Black Panther tanks and howitzers from South Korea, Warsaw's defence minister was quoted as saying on Friday, as the country strengthens its army because of the war in Ukraine.
I’m also guessing the FA-50 is much easier to transfer over to from F-16s than MiG-29s.
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Sorry, by “transfer over” I meant pilots going through the F-16 training system, and the system itself, would be much more amenable to supporting FA-50 training. Poland can start running down its MiG-29 training and possibly transfer it and equipment to Ukraine, if politically feasible.
isayyo2
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Ah no worries! I agree with your viewpoints; it'll be interesting to see how their M-346 fleet fairs in the future.
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I don't argue against the comprehensive industry package is important, which is why I mentioned it, but the lower cost is an important factor for a fleet of 500 tanks. Not just sticker price, the operating costs are very likely to be lower (barring unforeseen problems) and total program costs lower than a comparable SEPv3 fleet.
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Indeed! Future synergies would favour dropping them for the T-50, but maybe not in the short-term.
That is true indeed. I've glanced over but having significant production and polish-tailored configuration could contribute to the operating cost.
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random thoughts on this
- I had a strong feeling the K2 would go through. Its not that its a better tank than the Abrams, but that the K2 deal would allow for Polish input into the new K2 based design, and strengthen Poland's own defense industries. While the Abrams is buy as is
- still a lot of speculation on the K2PL's ammo stowage. Its supposed to be very different from the standard K2. Been hearing that they will put all ammo in the turret bustle.. or some ammo will be in the hull with the crew, but that they are completely separated by panels to protect them
- flying both M-346 and FA-50s is a surprise.. I could understand if they use the FA-50s as a light fighter for air policing duties, but it seems they will also be used for LIFT like the M-346. why the overlap?
- Having a major European order must be a big win for the Korean arms industry. I wonder if this will lead to Poland acquiring the KF-21 in the future
- Could mean the MiG-29s and Su-22s? could be on their way out too, perhaps donated to Ukraine/
- I had a strong feeling the K2 would go through. Its not that its a better tank than the Abrams, but that the K2 deal would allow for Polish input into the new K2 based design, and strengthen Poland's own defense industries. While the Abrams is buy as is
- still a lot of speculation on the K2PL's ammo stowage. Its supposed to be very different from the standard K2. Been hearing that they will put all ammo in the turret bustle.. or some ammo will be in the hull with the crew, but that they are completely separated by panels to protect them
- flying both M-346 and FA-50s is a surprise.. I could understand if they use the FA-50s as a light fighter for air policing duties, but it seems they will also be used for LIFT like the M-346. why the overlap?
- Having a major European order must be a big win for the Korean arms industry. I wonder if this will lead to Poland acquiring the KF-21 in the future
- Could mean the MiG-29s and Su-22s? could be on their way out too, perhaps donated to Ukraine/
donnage99
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old for most but new to me.
www.popularmechanics.com
Watch South Korea's Homemade Tank Strut Its Stuff
At $8.5 million, the K-2 Black Panther is one of the most expensive tanks ever built.
The signing of MoU regarding this deal is set for tomorrow. We'll be able to know the actual detail better.
One thing to note is that the Korean side has been eerly quiet/reserved compared to the Polish side, on which MoND officials ranging from some officials to the minister himself giving out lots of information and various prospects of a huge arms deal. Could be showing that they know it's to early to celebrate.
I've heard that the Korean assessment(of DAPA that is) is that the deal is only halfway through and I personally agree. Though, I'd say if the Poles eventually settle with just 180 K2s and nothing else, it'll still be a big win compared to absolutely nothing, eslecially in terms of expanding K2 production.
One thing to note is that the Korean side has been eerly quiet/reserved compared to the Polish side, on which MoND officials ranging from some officials to the minister himself giving out lots of information and various prospects of a huge arms deal. Could be showing that they know it's to early to celebrate.
I've heard that the Korean assessment(of DAPA that is) is that the deal is only halfway through and I personally agree. Though, I'd say if the Poles eventually settle with just 180 K2s and nothing else, it'll still be a big win compared to absolutely nothing, eslecially in terms of expanding K2 production.
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on a related note, do you know anything of the competition in Norway between the Leopard and K2?
The Norges have demanded a 100% offset for their tank acquisition program and more importantly, that offset should be purely military, ie. weapons deal.
Koreans are struggling to identify which Norwegian weapons it can acquire as an offset for the deal should the K2NOs be chosen, apart from JSM for ROKAF F-35s. Also there's a problem concerning another offset; namely, DSME sold an AOE to the Norwegian Navy in late 2000s/early 2010s but has not fullfiled the Norwegian offset terms as noted by the contract. From what is known, DSME has only fullfiled less than 30% of the total offset required.
That problem probably would need to get solved first before the K2NO sales receive any legislative acceptance.
Wicepremier, szef MON zatwierdzi kontrakty na południowokoreański sprzęt wojskowy - Ministerstwo Obrony Narodowej - Portal Gov.pl
27 lipca br. (środa) o godz. 9.30 w siedzibie MON (Warszawa, ul. Klonowa 1), Mariusz Błaszczak, wicepremier, minister obrony narodowej, zatwierdzi kontrakty zbrojeniowe zawierane z Koreą Południową na zakup sprzętu dla Wojska Polskiego.
www.gov.pl
It's official.
Actually, at this point shouldn't we rename this thread to "Polish army modernization program" or something along those lines? I've thought about starting a new thread but that kinda feels unnecessary.
@overscan (PaulMM)
@overscan (PaulMM)
The buy seems so big it is surprising that they are also going with the M1s. How big of a tank fleet do they intend to operate? It looks like they've inked deals for nearly 400 M1s on top of this. Assuming the Leo's are retired, it looks like were looking at ~1200 brand new or recently reconditioned MBTs and another ~150 older M1s that might be reserved for training.
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