Polish Tank Modernization Program

[GTX]

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

When are they going to drop the SEPvX designation and just call it the M1A3? It's getting rather silly at this point.

 

[TomS]

When are they going to drop the SEPvX designation and just call it the M1A3? It's getting rather silly at this point.

Apparently SEP v4 will be the M1A2D. I suspect they won't get to A3 unless they do a whole new turret with a 130mm gun or some such.

 

[GTX]

Has any heard rumours of Hungary and Romania also interested in M1 Abrams tanks? I heard murmurings that FMS cases may be underway.

 

[Foo Fighter]

If they were to go for a remotely operated turret they would need a new hull anyway which would basically be a new vehicle. Interesting to see where this goes tho'.

 

[Josh_TN]

I thought the SEP3 adds Trophy? I didn't see it on the slide.

 

[TomS]

I thought the SEP3 adds Trophy? I didn't see it on the slide.

Trophy is being added to some SEP v3 tanks, but it is independent of the SEP v3 baseline.

 

[Josh_TN]

I thought the SEP3 adds Trophy? I didn't see it on the slide.

Trophy is being added to some SEP v3 tanks, but it is independent of the SEP v3 baseline.

Thanks. I had read about the Polish order which apparently had it; I didn't realize it was a separate add on.

 

[TomS]

I thought the SEP3 adds Trophy? I didn't see it on the slide.

Trophy is being added to some SEP v3 tanks, but it is independent of the SEP v3 baseline.

Thanks. I had read about the Polish order which apparently had it; I didn't realize it was a separate add on.

Yeah, it's complicated. It seems likely that most SEP v4 tanks will also have Trophy but it's not even technically part of the v4 baseline spec.

 

[GTX]

Thanks. I had read about the Polish order which apparently had it; I didn't realize it was a separate add on.

Technically there is no Polish order at this stage.

 

[GTX]

One step closer:

Poland – M1A2 SEPv3 Main Battle Tank | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

 

[totoro]

From what I understand, the Polish ones will be the former USMC ones remanufactured into M1A2 SEP V3 standard.

I was trying to find a source that'd clear that up - whether the tanks are remanufactured or brand new. Perhaps you can help me if you have a source for your claim?

 

[GTX]

I can't remember where exactly sorry - it may have been from discussions with US army or GDLS folks.

 

[GTX]

I have also heard that Poland may be upping their request by another 200 odd Abrams. Funny that.

 

[isayyo2]

I have also heard that Poland may be upping their request by another 200 odd Abrams. Funny that.

After seeing the recent performance of the T-72B3Ms and friends over yonder, it might be wise to expedite the retirement of Poland's T-72M1s.

Maybe they could take the Marines M1A1-FEP as is? I hope they consider some Assault Breacher too.

 

[GTX]

Has any heard rumours of Hungary and Romania also interested in M1 Abrams tanks? I heard murmurings that FMS cases may be underway.

Actually - correction: it appears Romania is seeking 120 Abrams and Bulgaria is after 80.

 

[muttly]

It looks like the Poland deal is now a reality .

 

[Moose]

As such deals go in this day and age, 9 months from "we want to buy SEPv3" to "deal signed" is very fast.

 

[Volkodav]

Reading this reminded me of the TUSK kits for Abrams, I imagine they would make life harder for ATGW teams.

 

[GTX]

It looks like the Poland deal is now a reality .

What’s Your source? I have not seen any DSCA release yet.

 

[TomS]

It looks like the Poland deal is now a reality .

What’s Your source? I have not seen any DSCA release yet.

Abramsy dla Polski â wzmacniamy potencjaÅ Wojska Polskiego - Ministerstwo Obrony Narodowej - Portal Gov.pl

âTo bardzo ważny dzieÅ w historii wspóÅpracy polsko-amerykaÅskiej, ale także bardzo ważny dzieÅ, jeżeli chodzi o historiÄ Wojska Polskiego. Przed chwilÄ zostaÅa podpisana umowa gwarantujÄca dostawÄ 250 czoÅgów Abrams w najnowszej wersji dla Wojska Polskiego. W lipcu zeszÅego roku, razem z...

www.gov.pl

In Polish, confirms that the Minister of Defense signed the contract and that it was accepted by the US Ambassador. It adds that they are getting 26 Hercules and 17 bridging vehicles. Also, 28 tanks (2 companies worth) will be delivered from US Army stocks (or possibly loaned) for troop training.

 

[GTX]

It looks like the Poland deal is now a reality .

What’s Your source? I have not seen any DSCA release yet.

Doh, I'm a dunce: I actually posted the DSCA announcement earlier myself:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/poland-going-for-abrams-mbt-m1a2-sepv3.37527/post-518564

 

[GTX]

Some of my sources say that Poland is aiming for an eventual fleet of 600 M1A2s with all the Leopard 2s and PT-91s/T-72s replaced.

 

[Josh_TN]

Does the US have that many to refurbish? Is the line still producing new vehicles?

 

[GTX]

Yes

 

[Colonial-Marine]

I'd hope these exports and renewed interest will accelerate work on an M1A3 especially as plans for the next MBT seem to be not well defined at this time.

I can definitely understand Poland's purchase of M1A2s but getting rid of the Leopard 2s when they can be upgraded to a very modern standard would seem like an odd choice. I've also heard they are considering the purchase of Korean K2 MBTs but I'm guessing that is just rather baseless speculation.

What was that in the news about Challenger 2s being "on-lease" to Poland so they could donate their T-72 derivatives to Ukraine?

 

[GTX]

I'd hope these exports and renewed interest will accelerate work on an M1A3 especially as plans for the next MBT seem to be not well defined at this time.

As explained elsewhere/earlier the path via SEPV3 and SEP V4 is well defined. These essentially are the "A3" and beyond.

I can definitely understand Poland's purchase of M1A2s but getting rid of the Leopard 2s when they can be upgraded to a very modern standard would seem like an odd choice. I've also heard they are considering the purchase of Korean K2 MBTs but I'm guessing that is just rather baseless speculation.

Simple - keep to a single platform to reduce costs. The Korean deal will not go through as they want the better M1A2s instead.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

I'd hope these exports and renewed interest will accelerate work on an M1A3 especially as plans for the next MBT seem to be not well defined at this time.

As explained elsewhere/earlier the path via SEPV3 and SEP V4 is well defined. These essentially are the "A3" and beyond.

I can definitely understand Poland's purchase of M1A2s but getting rid of the Leopard 2s when they can be upgraded to a very modern standard would seem like an odd choice. I've also heard they are considering the purchase of Korean K2 MBTs but I'm guessing that is just rather baseless speculation.

Simple - keep to a single platform to reduce costs. The Korean deal will not go through as they want the better M1A2s instead.

I know there are plans for the M1A2 SEP packages but these seem to be at a relatively leisurely pace and not all that ambitious. Beyond that there doesn't seem to be much other than the occasional study.

 

[GTX]

I know there are plans for the M1A2 SEP packages but these seem to be at a relatively leisurely pace and not all that ambitious. Beyond that there doesn't seem to be much other than the occasional study.

It might seem that way but there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Also not every upgrade needs to be 'sexy' like a new gun or the like. Finally, remember that the upgrade packages are what the customer is driving and they also have no interest in changing what they are already happy with. If industry wanted to push something else they could buy it isn't what the customer wants.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

What was that in the news about Challenger 2s being "on-lease" to Poland so they could donate their T-72 derivatives to Ukraine?

British Army Challenger 2s would be forward deployed to Poland, taking the place of the T-72s which are being retired. This will prevent any capability gaps while the former T-72 crewmen are being retrained onto the Abrams.

 

[TomS]

It would seem so, more variation would make supply and logistics very difficult.

Apparently there is a deal to buy K2 as well.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1536370214287417349

View: https://twitter.com/JonHawkes275/status/1536370214287417349?t=LjAlH1ydBrL0cSV4G6gtFg&s=19

 

[donnage99]

Simple - keep to a single platform to reduce costs. The Korean deal will not go through as they want the better M1A2s instead.

Any reason why you think M1A2 is better than K2? (Not meant to be confrontational, simply curious. Not too familiar with tanks).

 

[GTX]

Any reason why you think M1A2 is better than K2? (Not meant to be confrontational, simply curious. Not too familiar with tanks).

I think the following sums up many of the key points:

Is the K2 Black Panther a better tank or the M1A2 Abrams?

Ryan Parkinson's answer: Better for what? For the South Koreans and the terrain they operate in and the physical restraints of their military and government? Good enough to be exceptionally superior to the point of ridiculousness to anything their North Korean cousins are able to field? Requires ...

qr.ae

To this I would also add:

• In the case of Poland the M1A2 SEP V3 is already on order thus there is a benefit on focusing on single type
• The M1A2 benefits from a much larger allied and industrial base - 7 other operators including the USA (incl Europe based forces) and likely to grow soon as more Eastern European countries are seeking Abrams vs just one in the form of Sth Korea for the K2
• Further to the above, the large size/multiple operators offers greater investment potential moving forward

Finally I would add (and this is just a personal opinion, though one based upon experience) that the level of after market support seemingly provided by the Sth Koreans on other systems (both airborne and ground) leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[TomcatViP]

Don't forget that the contract involves setting up a local supporting industry. This looks more sustainable and robust in the geopolitical context.

 

[GTX]

Don't forget that the contract involves setting up a local supporting industry. This looks more sustainable and robust in the geopolitical context.

Which - the M1A2 or the rumoured K2?

 

[TomcatViP]

@GTX : K2

 

[Ainen]

Some of my sources say that Poland is aiming for an eventual fleet of 600 M1A2s with all the Leopard 2s and PT-91s/T-72s replaced.

Given that they need as many as ~1500 just for their planned order of battle(much less potential replacements) - those numbers don't work.
In the end, currently, it looks like we'll see all of the abovementioned tanks in service, simultaneously.

Logic behind this? Well, immediate probability of war.

 

[Josh_TN]

The probability of war seems honestly pretty low in the medium turn. The competition is probably down ~1000 MBTs. I find the adoption of two new MBT types rather baffling.

 

[GTX]

Some of my sources say that Poland is aiming for an eventual fleet of 600 M1A2s with all the Leopard 2s and PT-91s/T-72s replaced.

Given that they need as many as ~1500 just for their planned order of battle(much less potential replacements)

Given they only have around 500 now I think a crippling is a bit much, even with the Russia factor thrown in.

 

[helmutkohl]

Any reason why you think M1A2 is better than K2? (Not meant to be confrontational, simply curious. Not too familiar with tanks).

I think the following sums up many of the key points:

Is the K2 Black Panther a better tank or the M1A2 Abrams?

Ryan Parkinson's answer: Better for what? For the South Koreans and the terrain they operate in and the physical restraints of their military and government? Good enough to be exceptionally superior to the point of ridiculousness to anything their North Korean cousins are able to field? Requires ...

qr.ae

To this I would also add:

• In the case of Poland the M1A2 SEP V3 is already on order thus there is a benefit on focusing on single type
• The M1A2 benefits from a much larger allied and industrial base - 7 other operators including the USA (incl Europe based forces) and likely to grow soon as more Eastern European countries are seeking Abrams vs just one in the form of Sth Korea for the K2
• Further to the above, the large size/multiple operators offers greater investment potential moving forward

Finally I would add (and this is just a personal opinion, though one based upon experience) that the level of after market support seemingly provided by the Sth Koreans on other systems (both airborne and ground) leaves a lot to be desired.

Interesting link.. I wonder what other tanks he was referring to when he said "The turret armor is already among the top 3–5 best performing turret armors in the world currently."

also on your last point on South Korean support.. do you have any more details?