PA NG - next gen French Aircraft carrier program
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http://youtu.be/VjkoxqtdokE
Can a moderate please merge this topic with the following topic:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3974.msg31158.html#msg31158
Thank you for your time and assistance.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3974.msg31158.html#msg31158
Thank you for your time and assistance.
DCNS are currently designing a next-generation aircraft carrier it calls the PA DSX to supplement the Charles de Gaulle CVN. It is unknown if this is a rehash of its previous designs or an entirely new "blank page" design. The information on the DCNS website is slight to say the least. Of interest is the low projected speed of 18-22 knots which is even slower than the CVF. Perhaps this is due to a change in powerplant from nuclear to gas turbine. Does anyone have any further information or a picture of this aircraft carrier?
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Its probably a refined version of the of the DCNS design show in the last year in this thread where they basically reworked their older Julliet design in place of the previously selected Thales CVF-PA2 design. With the PA2 not being included for procurement during the Sarkozy period i suspect DCNS ar revising the design to fit in with the next procurement window and using the design process to sell the concept to the likes of Brazil who are looking for an affordable non-nuclear Carrier design to eventually replace San Paulo
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nova10 said:
Sounds more like a biodiesel based diesel-electric machinery set-up to me. Something of a cynical design choice if my guess is correct.
Pepe Rezende
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With a so low speed it has no chance to substitute Sao Paulo. The Brazilian Navy established a 26 knots for LPHs.
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So basically what we have is a porteur supplémentaire, intended for training and defensive operations relatively close to France. In other words a 'Bay of Biscay' carrier. DCNS is aiming this square at the incoming new French Government as an 'environmentaly friendly' jobs program, IMHO.
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Or as an affordable carrier for lesser ambitious countries.
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Or as an affordable carrier for lesser ambitious countries.
I dunno. You have to be really ambitious to have a real aircraft carrier. Look at Britain's carrier problems. Check out Brazil, no third world basket case any more. They have a couple squadrons of third hand Skyhawks in hangars that could hold the Hindenburg. Thailand can't even afford to run aircraft on their carrier.
I dunno. You have to be really ambitious to have a real aircraft carrier. Look at Britain's carrier problems. Check out Brazil, no third world basket case any more. They have a couple squadrons of third hand Skyhawks in hangars that could hold the Hindenburg. Thailand can't even afford to run aircraft on their carrier.
The quality of this forum must be going downhill... so much conjecture and jumping to conclusions without any effort to do a quick Google search or read earlier posts in this thread. 
The PADSX design has been discussed at length, both here and on the DCNS website: it's a 59,000t evolution of the Romeo/Juliette design, with integrated electric propulsion. Three diesels and a gas turbine (64 MW) driving 3 shafts. Max speed 26kts, and 20+ knots on 2 shafts.
Plenty of pics of the model at the last Euronaval can be found.
(Click thumbnail for full size)
The PADSX design has been discussed at length, both here and on the DCNS website: it's a 59,000t evolution of the Romeo/Juliette design, with integrated electric propulsion. Three diesels and a gas turbine (64 MW) driving 3 shafts. Max speed 26kts, and 20+ knots on 2 shafts.
Plenty of pics of the model at the last Euronaval can be found.
(Click thumbnail for full size)
Via Google Translate:
DCNS and STX France offers a new design of aircraft carrier
It was one of the stars - discrete - the Euronaval. Result of the work led by DCNS and STX France since the abandonment of the Franco-British aircraft carrier in June 2008, the new "PA2" was unveiled last week on the stand of DCNS. The overall design of the building is reminiscent of the project "Juliette", initiated by DCNS before a cooperation agreement is signed by London and Paris in March 2006. The new PA2 (aircraft carrier number 2) adopts a single island, which is preferred configuration of the Navy from the design to two islands of Carrier Vessel Future (CVF) of the Royal Navy. This unique structure, its architecture, optimizes aerology when a plane arrives at the landing. The building studied by DCNS and STX France has a lift-off point of 272 meters long and 70 meters wide. As the Charles de Gaulle, the track has three strands oblique stop and a barricade system for the retrieval of a downed aircraft. The hull is characterized by an elongated bulb and, on the back, adding a skirt. This structure avoids the trim by the stern and easy maneuvering of aircraft in landing. The tip of the bulb in the far back, the total length is 285 meters.
Moving the PA2 is, meanwhile, of 59,000 tons at full load (at Newbuilding). This building is lighter than the French version of CVF previously studied (65,000 tons). However, the carrying capacity of aircraft are identical, with infrastructure sized to 32 Rafale, Hawkeye 3 and 5 helicopters. "We did lose weight. This design has the previous form of an improved hull. Generally, the boat has been optimized to best meet the needs of the Navy, but in a very strong prospect of reducing costs, "said one engineer. Officially, no figures were given but, in corridors, it evokes a bill reduced by about 20%. The focus is on the budget necessary for the implementation phase, but also operations, with less maintenance and fewer crews through automation. Thus, the crew of PA2 is given to 1690 persons, of which only 900 for the conduct of the building. This is down significantly compared to Charles de Gaulle. Although smaller (261 meters, 42,000 tons) and shipping fewer devices, the current French aircraft carrier is armed with just under 2000 people (including carrier air group).
Three rows of trees and a conventionally powered
AP2 has two boilers to supply two steam catapults 90 meters long. Not yet mature and probably more costly, the concept of electromagnetic catapults, intended to equip the new U.S. aircraft carriers, was not retained. The model presented by DCNS and STX adopts an all-electric propulsion, with three diesel generators, gas turbine and three electric propulsion motors. The whole develops 85MW, 64 MW for propulsion only, which should allow the carrier to spin at 26 knots. The concept of the three rows of trees can, in case of damage to one of these lines, maintain a speed of 20 knots, sufficient to receive a large aircraft like Hawkeye despite strong constraints (no wind flaps the failed unit). For French manufacturers, the new design PA2 is the best compromise can be reached between the French industrial capacities, the cost constraints of the Department of Defense and the Navy's operational requirements. Simple and robust, using, where possible civilian technologies (equipment "COTS" shelf), PA2 revisited this makes maximum use of materials made reliable. This is particularly the case for speed cameras, with the use of Herakles, already selected for the 11 future multi-mission frigates (FREMM) of the Navy. There are also above the bridge of a surveillance radar SMART-S, sold by Thales in many navies. The defense system is also limited to two quad launchers for Aster 15 and artillery remote operated small arms.
Too expensive and the nuclear binding
Unlike the Charles de Gaulle, the design put forward by industry thus offers a conventional propulsion. The advantages of nuclear power are not challenged. This mode of propulsion offers undeniable operational advantages, limiting the need for storing ship aviation fuel, ammunition and food. It also avoids exhaust fumes could disturb the landing maneuvers. But as the experience of the current French aircraft carrier (commissioned in 2001) makes clear, the nuclear also imposes important constraints. The first is due to constraints related to nuclear safety. In peacetime, the building meets the same standards as a central EDF, except that it also serves as a floating airfield hosting bunkers and ammunition on which maneuvering aircraft carrying fuel, bombs, shells and other missiles. This concentration of risk in a small space creates a real headache for safety. Furthermore, current legislation, particularly strict, requires that any problems found to be resolved, even if the malfunction only affects one of many security systems operating in redundancy. This is what happened in mid-October with a safety valve, which required a standard exchange and, therefore, return to Toulon from Charles de Gaulle, who had sailed the previous day to its deployment in ocean India.
At the same time, nuclear propulsion is "budget-". Several comparative studies have already been mentioned about the cost of 30 or 40 years between the conventionally powered and nuclear propulsion. The second allows, of course, to overcome the cost of bunkers, that is to say hundreds of thousands of tonnes of fuel consumed by the machines during the lifetime of the building. But rarely is assessed, or poorly, the additional cost to the atom, which requires safety measures and maintenance much heavier, not counting reloads of hearts (every 7-8 years) and the invoice related to the removal facilities once the building disarmed. Moreover, if France were to opt for a second aircraft carrier with nuclear propulsion, it would probably develop new boiler, which would take time and would increase the final bill. Therefore, even if manufacturers have been working on a nuclear option and the decision remains with the head of state, it is clear that conventional propulsion seems, today, most within reach of France . "It is not for me to guide a choice between nuclear or conventional. Everyone knows the benefits of a solution and the other, including the autonomy provided by nuclear. But it is clear that if we try to have an aircraft carrier quickly and cheaply, this is not the solution that brings the nuclear response, "said Patrick Boissier, DCNS Chairman.
Finally, although this is not the main handicap, it should be noted that a nuclear-powered vessel does not enter any port. Many countries refuse indeed to welcome this type of boat, which limits the possibilities of stopovers and thus the support points and support. The sailors, who go for long missions, have also suffered from this situation, which can affect morale.
The decision referred to the next term?
In 2008, Nicolas Sarkozy said he had deferred to 2011 or 2012 the decision to build, or not, a second aircraft carrier to the Navy. The goal is always to have a second platform able to accommodate the carrier air group of Charles de Gaulle when he is off technique. This is the principle of permanence to the sea, allowing France to have any time on this tool and diplomatic force projection only. This summer, while traveling to sites STX France in Saint-Nazaire, which would be built this building, the President said that this choice would depend on the economic context and made it clear that if the timing was not more favorable, the answer would probably be negative. As we have mentioned several times, the economic argument is primarily a pretext. For an aircraft carrier, it is about "only" 2.5 billion euros of investment over 7 years, compared to 15 to 17 billion euros that the Department of Defense spends annually in credits equipment. The main problem of the aircraft carrier, is its size and especially the political symbol it represents. A program of armor, fighters or even frigates will tend to go unnoticed, even if the cost is much higher. The carrier, however, requires real political commitment, this type of command that is inevitably subject to criticism (in the spirit, "an aircraft carrier that is as high schools or hospitals that are could build ") it would be very surprising that the Elysee, the approach of the presidential election of 2012, engages in such a way. That may be why Herve Morin, the Defence Minister, has pévoqué, last week, a decision late 2012 or early 2013, that is to say to the next legislature.
Perhaps the prospects for export
If only a Franco-French, the project probably little chance of success. International arrangements can, however, give him more credit. In terms of exports, although the market for this type of building is extremely limited, markets are, why not, possible. If cooperation with Great Britain lived, some now believe a rapprochement with Brazil, which has the firm intention to establish two carrier battle groups to defend its maritime interests. For this, the Brazilian Navy, which currently only has the old Sao Paulo (former Foch French commissioned in 1963), will need in the coming years, to build two new aircraft carriers. After the historic cooperation agreement signed in 2009 between Paris and Brasilia on submarines, there may be, from this point of view, a new card to play. Outside of Brazil, two countries want to develop their carrier battle tool. First India, with which France good relations (submarines have been sold including technology transfer). New Delhi has so far done the double challenge of replacing its aging aircraft carrier by a modernization of the former Russian Admiral Gorshkov (renamed Vikramaditya) and a building constructed locally (on Vikrant). However, both projects face difficulties and fall behind.
Another track, maybe more interesting, but politically very complex international, leads in Russia. Moscow has indeed announced its intention to bring up to five carrier battle groups by 2050. However, the country no longer has the technical capacity to make such buildings, much less know-how to implement them. Except surprise, France will soon sell projection and Command (BPC) to the Russian Navy. This contract will include a significant transfer of technology, aiming to put right, with methods and preceded Western, Russian shipyards that have not been able to modernize after the collapse of the USSR. After having provided assistance to Russia for the construction of large-gate attack helicopters, France (only with the United States to control the tool carrier) would be well positioned to support the industrial and marine Russia to build and operate new aircraft carriers. Obviously, such agreements, if they became a reality one day, would only result after long periods of negotiations, not only between the two countries, but also with other allies of France, as the United States, which would probably take a very dim lights a boost up in the long run, allow Moscow to counterbalance, even if only partially, of any American power on the seas. Some will find that a Franco-Russian cooperation on aircraft carriers is an unrealistic idea. But the wheel turns and the evolving geostrategic environment. For proof, Paris and London now to reflect on nuclear cooperation, reconciliation perfectly unthinkable a few short years.
Source:
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=114409
DCNS and STX France offers a new design of aircraft carrier
It was one of the stars - discrete - the Euronaval. Result of the work led by DCNS and STX France since the abandonment of the Franco-British aircraft carrier in June 2008, the new "PA2" was unveiled last week on the stand of DCNS. The overall design of the building is reminiscent of the project "Juliette", initiated by DCNS before a cooperation agreement is signed by London and Paris in March 2006. The new PA2 (aircraft carrier number 2) adopts a single island, which is preferred configuration of the Navy from the design to two islands of Carrier Vessel Future (CVF) of the Royal Navy. This unique structure, its architecture, optimizes aerology when a plane arrives at the landing. The building studied by DCNS and STX France has a lift-off point of 272 meters long and 70 meters wide. As the Charles de Gaulle, the track has three strands oblique stop and a barricade system for the retrieval of a downed aircraft. The hull is characterized by an elongated bulb and, on the back, adding a skirt. This structure avoids the trim by the stern and easy maneuvering of aircraft in landing. The tip of the bulb in the far back, the total length is 285 meters.
Moving the PA2 is, meanwhile, of 59,000 tons at full load (at Newbuilding). This building is lighter than the French version of CVF previously studied (65,000 tons). However, the carrying capacity of aircraft are identical, with infrastructure sized to 32 Rafale, Hawkeye 3 and 5 helicopters. "We did lose weight. This design has the previous form of an improved hull. Generally, the boat has been optimized to best meet the needs of the Navy, but in a very strong prospect of reducing costs, "said one engineer. Officially, no figures were given but, in corridors, it evokes a bill reduced by about 20%. The focus is on the budget necessary for the implementation phase, but also operations, with less maintenance and fewer crews through automation. Thus, the crew of PA2 is given to 1690 persons, of which only 900 for the conduct of the building. This is down significantly compared to Charles de Gaulle. Although smaller (261 meters, 42,000 tons) and shipping fewer devices, the current French aircraft carrier is armed with just under 2000 people (including carrier air group).
Three rows of trees and a conventionally powered
AP2 has two boilers to supply two steam catapults 90 meters long. Not yet mature and probably more costly, the concept of electromagnetic catapults, intended to equip the new U.S. aircraft carriers, was not retained. The model presented by DCNS and STX adopts an all-electric propulsion, with three diesel generators, gas turbine and three electric propulsion motors. The whole develops 85MW, 64 MW for propulsion only, which should allow the carrier to spin at 26 knots. The concept of the three rows of trees can, in case of damage to one of these lines, maintain a speed of 20 knots, sufficient to receive a large aircraft like Hawkeye despite strong constraints (no wind flaps the failed unit). For French manufacturers, the new design PA2 is the best compromise can be reached between the French industrial capacities, the cost constraints of the Department of Defense and the Navy's operational requirements. Simple and robust, using, where possible civilian technologies (equipment "COTS" shelf), PA2 revisited this makes maximum use of materials made reliable. This is particularly the case for speed cameras, with the use of Herakles, already selected for the 11 future multi-mission frigates (FREMM) of the Navy. There are also above the bridge of a surveillance radar SMART-S, sold by Thales in many navies. The defense system is also limited to two quad launchers for Aster 15 and artillery remote operated small arms.
Too expensive and the nuclear binding
Unlike the Charles de Gaulle, the design put forward by industry thus offers a conventional propulsion. The advantages of nuclear power are not challenged. This mode of propulsion offers undeniable operational advantages, limiting the need for storing ship aviation fuel, ammunition and food. It also avoids exhaust fumes could disturb the landing maneuvers. But as the experience of the current French aircraft carrier (commissioned in 2001) makes clear, the nuclear also imposes important constraints. The first is due to constraints related to nuclear safety. In peacetime, the building meets the same standards as a central EDF, except that it also serves as a floating airfield hosting bunkers and ammunition on which maneuvering aircraft carrying fuel, bombs, shells and other missiles. This concentration of risk in a small space creates a real headache for safety. Furthermore, current legislation, particularly strict, requires that any problems found to be resolved, even if the malfunction only affects one of many security systems operating in redundancy. This is what happened in mid-October with a safety valve, which required a standard exchange and, therefore, return to Toulon from Charles de Gaulle, who had sailed the previous day to its deployment in ocean India.
At the same time, nuclear propulsion is "budget-". Several comparative studies have already been mentioned about the cost of 30 or 40 years between the conventionally powered and nuclear propulsion. The second allows, of course, to overcome the cost of bunkers, that is to say hundreds of thousands of tonnes of fuel consumed by the machines during the lifetime of the building. But rarely is assessed, or poorly, the additional cost to the atom, which requires safety measures and maintenance much heavier, not counting reloads of hearts (every 7-8 years) and the invoice related to the removal facilities once the building disarmed. Moreover, if France were to opt for a second aircraft carrier with nuclear propulsion, it would probably develop new boiler, which would take time and would increase the final bill. Therefore, even if manufacturers have been working on a nuclear option and the decision remains with the head of state, it is clear that conventional propulsion seems, today, most within reach of France . "It is not for me to guide a choice between nuclear or conventional. Everyone knows the benefits of a solution and the other, including the autonomy provided by nuclear. But it is clear that if we try to have an aircraft carrier quickly and cheaply, this is not the solution that brings the nuclear response, "said Patrick Boissier, DCNS Chairman.
Finally, although this is not the main handicap, it should be noted that a nuclear-powered vessel does not enter any port. Many countries refuse indeed to welcome this type of boat, which limits the possibilities of stopovers and thus the support points and support. The sailors, who go for long missions, have also suffered from this situation, which can affect morale.
The decision referred to the next term?
In 2008, Nicolas Sarkozy said he had deferred to 2011 or 2012 the decision to build, or not, a second aircraft carrier to the Navy. The goal is always to have a second platform able to accommodate the carrier air group of Charles de Gaulle when he is off technique. This is the principle of permanence to the sea, allowing France to have any time on this tool and diplomatic force projection only. This summer, while traveling to sites STX France in Saint-Nazaire, which would be built this building, the President said that this choice would depend on the economic context and made it clear that if the timing was not more favorable, the answer would probably be negative. As we have mentioned several times, the economic argument is primarily a pretext. For an aircraft carrier, it is about "only" 2.5 billion euros of investment over 7 years, compared to 15 to 17 billion euros that the Department of Defense spends annually in credits equipment. The main problem of the aircraft carrier, is its size and especially the political symbol it represents. A program of armor, fighters or even frigates will tend to go unnoticed, even if the cost is much higher. The carrier, however, requires real political commitment, this type of command that is inevitably subject to criticism (in the spirit, "an aircraft carrier that is as high schools or hospitals that are could build ") it would be very surprising that the Elysee, the approach of the presidential election of 2012, engages in such a way. That may be why Herve Morin, the Defence Minister, has pévoqué, last week, a decision late 2012 or early 2013, that is to say to the next legislature.
Perhaps the prospects for export
If only a Franco-French, the project probably little chance of success. International arrangements can, however, give him more credit. In terms of exports, although the market for this type of building is extremely limited, markets are, why not, possible. If cooperation with Great Britain lived, some now believe a rapprochement with Brazil, which has the firm intention to establish two carrier battle groups to defend its maritime interests. For this, the Brazilian Navy, which currently only has the old Sao Paulo (former Foch French commissioned in 1963), will need in the coming years, to build two new aircraft carriers. After the historic cooperation agreement signed in 2009 between Paris and Brasilia on submarines, there may be, from this point of view, a new card to play. Outside of Brazil, two countries want to develop their carrier battle tool. First India, with which France good relations (submarines have been sold including technology transfer). New Delhi has so far done the double challenge of replacing its aging aircraft carrier by a modernization of the former Russian Admiral Gorshkov (renamed Vikramaditya) and a building constructed locally (on Vikrant). However, both projects face difficulties and fall behind.
Another track, maybe more interesting, but politically very complex international, leads in Russia. Moscow has indeed announced its intention to bring up to five carrier battle groups by 2050. However, the country no longer has the technical capacity to make such buildings, much less know-how to implement them. Except surprise, France will soon sell projection and Command (BPC) to the Russian Navy. This contract will include a significant transfer of technology, aiming to put right, with methods and preceded Western, Russian shipyards that have not been able to modernize after the collapse of the USSR. After having provided assistance to Russia for the construction of large-gate attack helicopters, France (only with the United States to control the tool carrier) would be well positioned to support the industrial and marine Russia to build and operate new aircraft carriers. Obviously, such agreements, if they became a reality one day, would only result after long periods of negotiations, not only between the two countries, but also with other allies of France, as the United States, which would probably take a very dim lights a boost up in the long run, allow Moscow to counterbalance, even if only partially, of any American power on the seas. Some will find that a Franco-Russian cooperation on aircraft carriers is an unrealistic idea. But the wheel turns and the evolving geostrategic environment. For proof, Paris and London now to reflect on nuclear cooperation, reconciliation perfectly unthinkable a few short years.
Source:
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=114409
From the DCNS Group web site:
Carrier group centrepiece
As the centrepiece of a powerful naval aviation force, an aircraft carrier offers a strategic advantage thanks to its air/sea dominance and power projection and deep strike capabilities.
After developing and building CVN Charles de Gaulle (1987-1996) DCNS is now designing a next-generation aircraft carrier offering increased power projection capabilities, optimised maintainability and improved at-sea availability. The interval between refits will be extended and their duration reduced. All systems will be more accessible and equipment handling greatly improved.
Longer intervals between shorter refits. The PA DSX will offer improved maintainability and at-sea availability thanks to lessons learned through fleet-wide through-life support. Special attention will be paid to living conditions for the reduced crew of 900. The ship will accommodate an air wing, a command team and other passengers.
The PA DSX design’s capabilities include air/sea control over a wide area, strike attacks against land and maritime targets along with missions as part of a carrier group or in cooperation with allied forces. On operational deployments with an air wing of 40 aircraft, the PA DSX will be able to carry out up to 75 air missions per day for extended periods.
Key points
Technical data
Conventional propulsion version
Length overall (flight deck): 285 m
Beam overall (flight deck): 69 m
Displacement (start of life): 59,000 tonnes
Displacement (end of life): 62,000 tonnes
Draught (end of life): 10 m
Speed: 26 knots / > 20 knots on (n-1) shafts
Propulsion: electric
Endurance (with 30% reserve): 8,000 nm at 15 knots / 5,000 nm at 22 knots
Fuel oil capacity: 3,800 tonnes
Jet fuel capacity: 3,400 tonnes
Magazine (munitions): 800 tonnes
Hangar area: 4,800 sq m
Accommodation: 1,690
Flight deck, area: 13,400 sq m
Source:
http://en.dcnsgroup.com/naval/products/aircraft-carriers-family/
Carrier group centrepiece
As the centrepiece of a powerful naval aviation force, an aircraft carrier offers a strategic advantage thanks to its air/sea dominance and power projection and deep strike capabilities.
After developing and building CVN Charles de Gaulle (1987-1996) DCNS is now designing a next-generation aircraft carrier offering increased power projection capabilities, optimised maintainability and improved at-sea availability. The interval between refits will be extended and their duration reduced. All systems will be more accessible and equipment handling greatly improved.
Longer intervals between shorter refits. The PA DSX will offer improved maintainability and at-sea availability thanks to lessons learned through fleet-wide through-life support. Special attention will be paid to living conditions for the reduced crew of 900. The ship will accommodate an air wing, a command team and other passengers.
The PA DSX design’s capabilities include air/sea control over a wide area, strike attacks against land and maritime targets along with missions as part of a carrier group or in cooperation with allied forces. On operational deployments with an air wing of 40 aircraft, the PA DSX will be able to carry out up to 75 air missions per day for extended periods.
Key points
- All-electric ship with a powerful propulsion system
- Improved naval aviation capabilities
- Reduced crewing (complement of 900)
- Improved living conditions
- Improved access to all major systems
- Speed: 18 to 22 knots
Technical data
Conventional propulsion version
Length overall (flight deck): 285 m
Beam overall (flight deck): 69 m
Displacement (start of life): 59,000 tonnes
Displacement (end of life): 62,000 tonnes
Draught (end of life): 10 m
Speed: 26 knots / > 20 knots on (n-1) shafts
Propulsion: electric
Endurance (with 30% reserve): 8,000 nm at 15 knots / 5,000 nm at 22 knots
Fuel oil capacity: 3,800 tonnes
Jet fuel capacity: 3,400 tonnes
Magazine (munitions): 800 tonnes
Hangar area: 4,800 sq m
Accommodation: 1,690
Flight deck, area: 13,400 sq m
Source:
http://en.dcnsgroup.com/naval/products/aircraft-carriers-family/
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Some major contradictions there. I'm left wondering if someone in the PR department at DCNS reused old material in a bid to fill copy in a hurry.
On another note, this might have a bearing on whether the design actually gets anywhere: Le Drian Tapped as New French Defense Minister (DefenseNews)
On another note, this might have a bearing on whether the design actually gets anywhere: Le Drian Tapped as New French Defense Minister (DefenseNews)
Pepe Rezende
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royabulgaf said:
The Skyhawks don't operate from Santa Cruz, where is the Graf Zeppelin hangar (it was not build for Hindenburg), they are in Sao Pedro da Aldeia. They, also, are not third hand planes. In fact, they were used only by Kuwait and are the last build by Mc Donnell-Douglas. Now, they are in modernization process at Embraer, receiving a new radar, new avionics and a new EW suite. They will be able to use anti-ship and BVR air-to-air missiles.
Brazilian Navy choose the Skyhawk as a cheap way to get some experience in combat jets operations. Until very recently, operating fixed wings aircrafts was Brazilian Air Force monopoly. The idea, for the future, is use F-X2 bid winner at both services. The Navy intends to bought 48 planes equipping two 50,000 t aircraft carriers. The Brazilian Navy is also developing a new anti-ship missile for use in aircrafts, ships and submarines.
A good question: what is more reliable: DCNS page or Google?
You MUST see the Zeppelin hangar: http://goo.gl/ChNrG
Cheers
Pepe
Pepe Rezende
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In French, shafts are "arbres" (trees). Translating google translation to real English, the project has three shafts!
Pepe
Pepe
Video of CVF-FR PA2 by DCNS
http://youtu.be/VjkoxqtdokE
http://youtu.be/VjkoxqtdokE
Model of DCNS PA2 on display at Euronaval 2012.
Source:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/home/naval-exhibitions-pictures/euronaval-2012.html?AG_MK=0&AG_form_paginInitPages_653=1&AG_form_albumInitFolders_653=west_europe/france/exhibition/euronaval_2012/pictures/Scale%20models&AG_form_scrollTop=966&AG_form_scrollLeft=0&AG_MK=0
Source:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/home/naval-exhibitions-pictures/euronaval-2012.html?AG_MK=0&AG_form_paginInitPages_653=1&AG_form_albumInitFolders_653=west_europe/france/exhibition/euronaval_2012/pictures/Scale%20models&AG_form_scrollTop=966&AG_form_scrollLeft=0&AG_MK=0
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GTX said:Geoff_B said:
Getting a little further off topic (though in my defence Sea Gripen is mentioned within this
I missed this news back in April:
"France’s PA2/CVF Carrier Project: Stalled in the Water"
Apr 29, 2013 12:02 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff
Source:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/france-steaming-ahead-on-pa2cvf-carrier-project-01621/
"France’s PA2/CVF Carrier Project: Stalled in the Water"
Apr 29, 2013 12:02 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff
Source:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/france-steaming-ahead-on-pa2cvf-carrier-project-01621/
Also from April:
Source:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/dcns-unveils-brazilian-carrier-design.255248/
Source:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/dcns-unveils-brazilian-carrier-design.255248/
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thebig C said:
Why though?
It may have some limited value as an helicopter carrier due to it's size, but it can only operate VSTOL aircraft, and an aircraft that will rapidly disappear in the not too distant future to boot.
Also, VSTOL is not something that Brazil seems interested in at all, as far as I know.
Even if they were, would you be able to operate the F-35B off this vessel?
The F-35 is longer, wider, and weighs almost 2,5 times heavier empty, and over twice as heavy when loaded to the max than the biggest Harrier variant.
I suspect that if Brazil does get serious about a new carrier, it will be a CATOBAR carrier, that fits in with their ambitions. (ala the SSN)
In this regard, you'd suspect they would look at the British or French programmes.
Still, I can still see the Sao Paulo steaming around in Brazilian service in 20 years time.
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I think the recent social unrest over the likes of the World Cup and Olympics may have curbed the Brazilian ambitions for big ticket items, just look at the farse over the new combat aircraft which really is an urgent requirement and still outstanding. The chances of an order for a new carrier built to replace San Paulo are slim at best.
I think it was mentioned in discussions at the time of the recent Fench Defence White Paper that the PA-2 is now being regarded more as a long term project to replace the Charles de Gaulle CVN rather than complement it. I wonder when the time finally comes that they do our trick and order two for economies of scale as that appears to be the only way to get two carriers as they don't appear able to stagger orders without them being deferred back to the point of cancellation. Remember they did want two CdG class to replace the Foch class, the 2nd ship getting deffered back until it morphed into the PA2 prgramme which faired no better.
I think it was mentioned in discussions at the time of the recent Fench Defence White Paper that the PA-2 is now being regarded more as a long term project to replace the Charles de Gaulle CVN rather than complement it. I wonder when the time finally comes that they do our trick and order two for economies of scale as that appears to be the only way to get two carriers as they don't appear able to stagger orders without them being deferred back to the point of cancellation. Remember they did want two CdG class to replace the Foch class, the 2nd ship getting deffered back until it morphed into the PA2 prgramme which faired no better.
My personnal opinion is that the CdG uniqueness makes things harder. I never liked the idea of a mixed fleet - the CdG would have been nuclear powered but too small, and the PA-2 would have faced opposite issues.
So what will happen when the next crisis will erupt ?
If the CdG not available - either a) Armée de l'Air Rafales, on forward bases (Quatar) or with IFR (if the MRTT are ever bought) or
b) a mix of Scalp cruise missiles (from the frigates) with BPC-based Tigre helicopters.
So what will happen when the next crisis will erupt ?
If the CdG not available - either a) Armée de l'Air Rafales, on forward bases (Quatar) or with IFR (if the MRTT are ever bought) or
b) a mix of Scalp cruise missiles (from the frigates) with BPC-based Tigre helicopters.
Artist's impression of DCN/Thales PA-2 concept circa 2006.
Source:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/france-steaming-ahead-on-pa2cvf-carrier-project-01621/
http://oldwww.btk.elte.hu/eu/old/euronaval.htm
Source:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/france-steaming-ahead-on-pa2cvf-carrier-project-01621/
http://oldwww.btk.elte.hu/eu/old/euronaval.htm
Attachments
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DCNS seem to be taking a different track now, namely 'The Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC)':
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/9951/DCNS_To_Unveil_New_Future_Aircraft_Carrier_Design_At_Defexpo_2014
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?235215
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/9951/DCNS_To_Unveil_New_Future_Aircraft_Carrier_Design_At_Defexpo_2014
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?235215
lancer21 said:
I wouldn't despair just yet, Defexpo is through Sunday, February 9, 2014. In the meantime, I will continue to look for information and images concerning the DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC).
Thanks Triton, i'll keep an eye out too.
PS: well, this article seems to suggest it's not actually a new design, so it's only the same "RXX" perhaps under another name?
http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/inde-le-pa2-en-bonne-place-sur-le-stand-dcns-defexpo
Not clear if this is from Defexpo 2014:
PS: well, this article seems to suggest it's not actually a new design, so it's only the same "RXX" perhaps under another name?
http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/inde-le-pa2-en-bonne-place-sur-le-stand-dcns-defexpo
Not clear if this is from Defexpo 2014:
Well, dunno if this is the DEAC or not (2 shaft vs 3 shaft on earlier models?), and if it's basically the same design as presented in 2010:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1551
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1551
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It's possible that the DEAC is primarily an attempt by DCNS to sell a CVN design to India by the back door, allowing the Indians to concentrate their resources on developing an indigenous naval reactor, rather than design a whole CVN from scratch.
The same model was displayed at the DCNS booth at Defexpo 2012 as the PA2. Looks like we were misled by the article that the DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) was a new aircraft carrier design. Perhaps DCNS re-branded the design because the PA2 project was cancelled in the 2013 French White Paper on Defence and National Security.
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It may well be.
Would you think there is any chance PA2 might come back in a future White Paper? Or indeed, any chance of some sort of joint use (Royal Navy and Aeronavale) of the second QE (has to be finished as a CATOBAR if so)?
DEAC appears to be the 3rd major iteration of the PA2 design. The last picture below is probably most representative of what it would look like.
1) PA2 R9X (Euronaval 2004)
59,000 tons, 284 meters, 27 knots.
Very retro styling (tripod mast, boats in open bays along the side).
Single Empar-style radar (sometimes replaced in CG images by a pyramidal Herakles).
4 arrestor wires.
2) PA2 RXX aka. PADSX (Euronaval 2010)
59,000 tons, 284 meters, 26 knots.
Full electric propulsion, probably in order to future-proof for installation of EMALS catapults.
New 3 shaft layout, more complex, may have been dictated by limitations on electric motor size (~20MW per shaft).
Efforts to improve hydrodynamics (extended transom skirt) to reduce the speed penalty (only 26 kts).
Generally cleaner look, reduced radar cross section (enclosed sponsons, cleaner aerials).
New pair of 3D radars (Herakles + Smart-S).
Arrestor wires reduced to 3.
Flight deck widened to port, waist catapult shifted outward.
3) DEAC (Euronaval 2012, LAAD 2013, DEFEXPO 2014*)
"52,000 tons class", 272 meters, 27 knots.
Export version. Efforts to reduce size and cost, name changed from "PA2" to "Evolved Aircraft Carrier".
Hull shortened by ~12 (?) meters at the stern (loss of 1 aircraft parking spot), no more transom skirt, longer bulbous bow.
Cheaper, more compact propulsion: 2-shafts, hybrid electric (CODLAG) or COGAG. May indicate that EMALS is less of a priority.
Further radar cross section reduction detail work (Herakles radar installed on a stealthier mast with inclined faces)
Landing area and wires shifted forward due to shorter hull.
* Note: the DEAC model does not appear completely accurate. It looks like a modded RXX model. The transom skirt has been cut-off, the center shaft line removed and the outside shaft lines shortened accordingly. The island detail work (aerials) has also been updated. However, the hull has not been shortened and the landing area and wires are still set back like on RXX.
1) PA2 R9X (Euronaval 2004)
59,000 tons, 284 meters, 27 knots.
Very retro styling (tripod mast, boats in open bays along the side).
Single Empar-style radar (sometimes replaced in CG images by a pyramidal Herakles).
4 arrestor wires.
2) PA2 RXX aka. PADSX (Euronaval 2010)
59,000 tons, 284 meters, 26 knots.
Full electric propulsion, probably in order to future-proof for installation of EMALS catapults.
New 3 shaft layout, more complex, may have been dictated by limitations on electric motor size (~20MW per shaft).
Efforts to improve hydrodynamics (extended transom skirt) to reduce the speed penalty (only 26 kts).
Generally cleaner look, reduced radar cross section (enclosed sponsons, cleaner aerials).
New pair of 3D radars (Herakles + Smart-S).
Arrestor wires reduced to 3.
Flight deck widened to port, waist catapult shifted outward.
3) DEAC (Euronaval 2012, LAAD 2013, DEFEXPO 2014*)
"52,000 tons class", 272 meters, 27 knots.
Export version. Efforts to reduce size and cost, name changed from "PA2" to "Evolved Aircraft Carrier".
Hull shortened by ~12 (?) meters at the stern (loss of 1 aircraft parking spot), no more transom skirt, longer bulbous bow.
Cheaper, more compact propulsion: 2-shafts, hybrid electric (CODLAG) or COGAG. May indicate that EMALS is less of a priority.
Further radar cross section reduction detail work (Herakles radar installed on a stealthier mast with inclined faces)
Landing area and wires shifted forward due to shorter hull.
* Note: the DEAC model does not appear completely accurate. It looks like a modded RXX model. The transom skirt has been cut-off, the center shaft line removed and the outside shaft lines shortened accordingly. The island detail work (aerials) has also been updated. However, the hull has not been shortened and the landing area and wires are still set back like on RXX.
Attachments
DEAC's specs from the DCNS website. The export focus and slight reduction in size are quite clear. EMALS seems unlikely:
Power projection and air supremacy. During operational deployments with an air wing of 38 aircraft, it will be able to carry out up to 75 air missions per day for extended periods
Improved naval aviation capabilities. The new DCNS aircraft carrier is designed to operate during 6-month missions with an embarked Air Wing based on Rafale fighters and Hawkeye early warning aircraft. it is also a excellent platform to command a task force.
Longer intervals between shorter refits.The ship offers improved maintainability and at-sea availability thanks to lessons learned through fleet-wide through-life support
Global offers.
With the ship, DCNS may also deliver:
- A technology transfer programme through local partnership
- Efficient supply chain services
- Aviation equipment maintenance services.
- Maintenance contracts with a commitment on technical availability
- A complete range of simulators and trainings
Operations Proven Solutions.
The main guidelines for this Aircraft Carrier are:
- A flight deck and aviation facilities based on existing solutions and taking into account several years of feedback from FNS Charles de Gaulle
- A Combat system using FREMM technology
- Sea-proven power and propulsion solutions.
- DCNS upgraded boilers for the steam catapults
Characteristics
- Length (flight deck): 272 m
- Beam (flight deck) : 67.5 m (37.5 at waterline)
- Displacement : 52000t class
- Range: 5000 to 9000 nm
- Endurance: 5-week mission without replenishment at sea.
- Speed: 27 knots
- Crew (ship + air wing): 900+650
- Passengers : 220
- Special attention has been paid to living conditions.
Propulsion Architecture
- COGAG or CODLAG with 2 shaft lines
Aircraft Facilities (for 30 to 40 aircraft such as Rafale, Hawkeye, NH90 or similar)
- 13400 m2 flight deck
- 2 x 90 m steam catapults
- 3 arresting gears
- 1 barricade for emergency recovery
- 4800 m2 hangar
- 2 aircraft elevators
Combat System
- SETIS
Main Equipment
- 3D long-range multifunction radar
- 3D medium-range multifunction radar
- EW suite
- 8 surface-to-air missiles in VLS
- CIWS based on short missiles and/or small/medium gun
Source: http://en.dcnsgroup.com/naval/products/aircraft-carrier/
Compare to the previous PA2 RXX specs in Triton's post # 54:
Power projection and air supremacy. During operational deployments with an air wing of 38 aircraft, it will be able to carry out up to 75 air missions per day for extended periods
Improved naval aviation capabilities. The new DCNS aircraft carrier is designed to operate during 6-month missions with an embarked Air Wing based on Rafale fighters and Hawkeye early warning aircraft. it is also a excellent platform to command a task force.
Longer intervals between shorter refits.The ship offers improved maintainability and at-sea availability thanks to lessons learned through fleet-wide through-life support
Global offers.
With the ship, DCNS may also deliver:
- A technology transfer programme through local partnership
- Efficient supply chain services
- Aviation equipment maintenance services.
- Maintenance contracts with a commitment on technical availability
- A complete range of simulators and trainings
Operations Proven Solutions.
The main guidelines for this Aircraft Carrier are:
- A flight deck and aviation facilities based on existing solutions and taking into account several years of feedback from FNS Charles de Gaulle
- A Combat system using FREMM technology
- Sea-proven power and propulsion solutions.
- DCNS upgraded boilers for the steam catapults
Characteristics
- Length (flight deck): 272 m
- Beam (flight deck) : 67.5 m (37.5 at waterline)
- Displacement : 52000t class
- Range: 5000 to 9000 nm
- Endurance: 5-week mission without replenishment at sea.
- Speed: 27 knots
- Crew (ship + air wing): 900+650
- Passengers : 220
- Special attention has been paid to living conditions.
Propulsion Architecture
- COGAG or CODLAG with 2 shaft lines
Aircraft Facilities (for 30 to 40 aircraft such as Rafale, Hawkeye, NH90 or similar)
- 13400 m2 flight deck
- 2 x 90 m steam catapults
- 3 arresting gears
- 1 barricade for emergency recovery
- 4800 m2 hangar
- 2 aircraft elevators
Combat System
- SETIS
Main Equipment
- 3D long-range multifunction radar
- 3D medium-range multifunction radar
- EW suite
- 8 surface-to-air missiles in VLS
- CIWS based on short missiles and/or small/medium gun
Source: http://en.dcnsgroup.com/naval/products/aircraft-carrier/
Compare to the previous PA2 RXX specs in Triton's post # 54:
Triton said:
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