PA NG - next gen French Aircraft carrier program

Thanks Anderman, now I know the true source of the information that wiki used.
 
Anderman said:
The german Wiki also has a width of 85 m and it source is this article of EDR.

www.edrmagazine.eu

French Navy new generation aircraft carrier design detailed - EDR Magazine

EDR reveals further details on the French Navy new generation aircraft carrier that was unveiled by the French DGA during Euronaval 2022
www.edrmagazine.eu www.edrmagazine.eu
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There is of course the possibility that the EDR article pulled it from wiki and then the German wiki pulled it from EDR. Waterline is stated at 39m, Gerald Ford Class is stated at 41m, QE Class also 39m. Gerald Ford deck width is 78m, QE deck width is 73m. 75m seems more likely, unless the 85m includes the over-hanging weapons placements off the side.
 
The original source was a press briefing by Naval Group at Euronaval 2022. From this slide:

www.navalnews.com

Euronaval 2022: Latest PANG Aircraft Carrier Design Breaks Cover - Naval News

An updated design of the PANG (porte-avions de nouvelle génération) new generation aircraft carrier was unveiled today on Day one of Euronaval 2022...
www.navalnews.com www.navalnews.com
PANG-Aircraft-Carrier-specifications-1024x513.jpg


However another official document (attached below) says 80m overall width, so who knows?
 

Attachments

  • Porte-avions de nouvelle génération - Next-generation aircraft carrier.pdf
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We won't know for sure until the main design get's frozen. They will probably keep changing the design characteristics of the carrier until they are happy with it.
 
Looks like big-deck flattops make sense, i.e China and now France. And France is returning to nuke power with their PA-NG, plus the French make very good commercial reactors which power their country as well.
 
Hydroman said:
Looks like big-deck flattops make sense, i.e China and now France. And France is returning to nuke power with their PA-NG, plus the French make very good commercial reactors which power their country as well.
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yeah, I fully expected France's next carrier to be that kind of size.

The only issue I have with French reactors is that they use LEU, which means they need to be refueled much more often. On the subs, they have a bolted on hatch for access to save them from cutting into the hull every 7-8 years. I don't know how that will work around all the stuff that is between the reactors and the flight deck, and I suspect poorly.
 
Scott Kenny said:
yeah, I fully expected France's next carrier to be that kind of size.

The only issue I have with French reactors is that they use LEU, which means they need to be refueled much more often. On the subs, they have a bolted on hatch for access to save them from cutting into the hull every 7-8 years. I don't know how that will work around all the stuff that is between the reactors and the flight deck, and I suspect poorly.
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Charles de Gaulle did her first refueling overhaul in 15 months (including a propeller swap) and her second in 18 months (including a new radar fit). I think the French have this figured out.
 
Order for PANG confirmed for 2025, I wonder when the inservice date will be eventually? Considering how long it took the QE carriers to get built.
 
FighterJock said:
Order for PANG confirmed for 2025, I wonder when the inservice date will be eventually? Considering how long it took the QE carriers to get built.
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As per the article, construction planned to begin in 2026 and completion projected for 2038. So therefore probably in service around 2038-2040.
 
So in service dates around 2038-2040? That is a long time GTX. Of course the French Navy will want the PANG to be nuclear powered as well which could possibly explain the long construction dates.
 
Still faster than the french-german SCAF. And Rafale M will make the interim as long as needed. CDG can last a long time too, Foch and Clem were 40 years old were retired. Clemenceau was in poor shape but Foch was planned to last until 2004 in french service, and Brazil stretched that.
 
GTX said:
As per the article, construction planned to begin in 2026 and completion projected for 2038. So therefore probably in service around 2038-2040.
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It’s a little faster than that.

2024-25: Long lead time items ordered (nuclear reactor, catapults etc)
2030-31: Construction starts, assembly of hull blocks (18 months)
2032-34: Launch & fitting out alongside
Early 2035: Sea trials in the Atlantic (on diesel generators)
Mid 2035: Transfer to Toulon for nuclear fueling, combat system installation, full propulsion and combat system trials
Late 2036/early 2037: Acceptance trials & delivery
2037: Work ups and first deployment
2038: Commissioning into active service

This calendar is driven by St Nazaire’s already full workload (they must find a production slot and build the hull very fast in between cruise ships), and the fact that only Toulon is nuclear qualified. Also Toulon has more experience with combat systems. So St Nazaire will build and fit out the hull almost as if this was a civilian vessel, then Toulon will handle the military aspects.
 
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P.S. PANG’s construction in two shipyards reminds me of Foch, which also started construction in St Nazaire before being towed to Brest for fitting out. So this is probably where the idea came from!

Foch being towed from St Nazaire to Brest (1959)
43002Foch_1959.jpg
 
GTX said:
As per the article, construction planned to begin in 2026 and completion projected for 2038. So therefore probably in service around 2038-2040.
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Seems long, but the US does take a decade to spit out a carrier from Newport News...

H_K said:
It’s a little faster than that.

2024-25: Long lead time items ordered (nuclear reactor, catapults etc)
2030-31: Construction starts, assembly of hull blocks (18 months)
2032-34: Launch & fitting out alongside
Early 2035: Sea trials in the Atlantic (on diesel generators)
Mid 2035: Transfer to Toulon for nuclear fueling, combat system installation, full propulsion and combat system trials
Late 2036/early 2037: Acceptance trials & delivery
2037: Work ups and first deployment
2038: Commissioning into active service

This calendar is driven by St Nazaire’s already full workload (they must find a production slot and build the hull very fast in between cruise ships), and the fact that only Toulon is nuclear qualified. Also Toulon has more experience with combat systems. So St Nazaire will build and fit out the hull almost as if this was a civilian vessel, then Toulon will handle the military aspects.
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Okay, that makes a lot more sense, thanks!
 
Archibald said:
Still faster than the french-german SCAF. And Rafale M will make the interim as long as needed. CDG can last a long time too, Foch and Clem were 40 years old were retired. Clemenceau was in poor shape but Foch was planned to last until 2004 in french service, and Brazil stretched that.
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Which is good as they have time to fix Problems as CdG probaly isn't FCAS NGF compatible
 
Archibald said:
Still faster than the french-german SCAF. And Rafale M will make the interim as long as needed. CDG can last a long time too, Foch and Clem were 40 years old were retired. Clemenceau was in poor shape but Foch was planned to last until 2004 in french service, and Brazil stretched that.
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In the early 2000s this was supposed to be a second carrier to operate beside CdG - but the text of the announcement states that it is the replacement for CdG.

Oh, well.
 
CdG sidekick timeline
-1980-1986-2000 : a CdG clone
-2000-2008 : CVF, a sibling of what became the Queen Elizabeth carriers
- 2008 when Sarko dropped CVF: CdG alone
-Since 2020: PA-NG to replce CdG around 2040. No second ship planned so far.
 
FighterJock said:
How much would three 75,000 tonne nuclear powered aircraft carriers cost for France (that is if they go for three).
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The plan for PAMG is 5-6 billion euros so we would be looking at 15-18 billion if they make it right. Still this doesn't include crew, aircrafts and there group. I think an fully equiped 3 Carrier strike group would sit at around ~60 billion euros (give or take some 10 billions)
 
kqcke for you said:
The plan for PAMG is 5-6 billion euros so we would be looking at 15-18 billion if they make it right. Still this doesn't include crew, aircrafts and there group. I think an fully equiped 3 Carrier strike group would sit at around ~60 billion euros (give or take some 10 billions)
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Repeat builds should be cheaper, if they’re done smartly.
 
Archibald said:
CdG sidekick timeline
-1980-1986-2000 : a CdG clone
-2000-2008 : CVF, a sibling of what became the Queen Elizabeth carriers
- 2008 when Sarko dropped CVF: CdG alone
-Since 2020: PA-NG to replce CdG around 2040. No second ship planned so far.
Click to expand...

PA.2 (the CVF derivative) was from 2004/2006-2008 (the start date depends on when you count as the start, the initial part of negotiations or the actual signing of the agreement). There was no French involvement prior to this, or after.
 
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I do think that the French Navy should build at least three PANG carriers that is if they can source the neccesary funds for them and not just build one like the Charles de Gaule, they made a mistake in building just the Charles de Gaule and not build another one.
 
FighterJock said:
I do think that the French Navy should build at least three PANG carriers that is if they can source the neccesary funds for them and not just build one like the Charles de Gaule, they made a mistake in building just the Charles de Gaule and not build another one.
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No way. No money. And the exploding debt won't help, plus that new government of morons... (sorry, I'm unfair with morons: apologies to morons for that comparison).
 
Scott Kenny said:
France really needs to find the crew and escorts to have 3 carriers...
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The frigate programs since 25 years has been a litany of false starts and new starts, the number of escorts has shrunk dramatically, and this is for CdG alone. Not specialist of ships, but the objective of 27 frigates has shrunk to 18 or even less.
 
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FighterJock said:
Where did all the money go Archibald? I am surprised at that.
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Budget cuts, "peace dividends". In his heydays De Gaulle insisted the defense budget shall be 3% of the GNP. This gradually shrunk to 2%, post Cold War. Yet before the 2015-2016 terror attacks that killed 273 people, President Hollande 2013 defense review would have shrunk the defense budget to merely 1%.
Since then it has been gradually augmented, presently hanging around 2% or a bit more. From memory, objective is 2.5%.

France independently produce world-class military systems but afterwards, procurement is only in peanut numbers. Think of the CAESAR guns when Ukraine asked more. Same for Rafale, for frigates... France military budgets are very tight.

30 years ago at the end of the Cold War, the AdA insisted on a non-negociable number of combat jets : 450. Since then the fleet, Aéronavale included, has been cut to 225 : Rafale final objective. Except that objective has recently been pushed to 2035.
 
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Archibald said:
No way. No money. And the exploding debt won't help, plus that new government of morons... (sorry, I'm unfair with morons: apologies to morons for that comparison).
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Well, with a need to increase European defence - no matter who ends up in the Whitehouse in January, perhaps a Euro PANG or two might be in order?
 
Alas, since WWII nobody in Europe needs (or has the budget defense) for full blown carriers. Germany never was interested, Italy and Spain went big amphibious with F-35B on deck (or Harriers, but Spain will inevitably bow to the F-35B unique solution). And Great Britain has the Q.E plus brexit.
 
Archibald said:
The frigate programs since 25 years has been a litany of false starts and new starts, the number of escorts has shrunk dramatically, and this is for CdG alone. Not specialist of ships, but the objective of 27 frigates has shrunk to 18 or even less.
Click to expand...
Holy crap! didn't realize it was that bad!!!

Perhaps you need to dust off Madame Guillotine?
 

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