P1121 transferred from Cosford to Brooklands

NMaude said:
There may still be technical documentation lying around, in 1998 or 1999 I able to obtain a photocopied copy of the pilot's P.1121 flight manual (It cost me 47 pounds and it's lying around somewhere).
Click to expand...
Ask Julian Temple - currently with BAE Systems Heritage archive (at Farnborough) and previously at Brooklands. Jeremy.Temple@baesystems.com
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Where did you get the copy from? That might be easier.
Click to expand...

It was 25-26 years ago so I don't recall the exact details however I got in touch with a woman from one of aviation museums after contacting BAe (I think), I don't think I have the original email transcripts anymore.
 
I don't believe Brooklands have it, nor the RAF Museum archives at Hendon, as I've been through their catalogues. BAE Systems Heritage at Farnborough didn't seem to have anything P.1121 related other than some desk models.
 
It seems that when a small group of talented individuals can get a replica Arrow flying, we SHOULD be able to get these old project warhorses restored as an example of pride in what our nation can do with the right mindset.

We CAn and SHOULD.
 
Foo Fighter said:
It seems that when a small group of talented individuals can get a replica Arrow flying, we SHOULD be able to get these old project warhorses restored as an example of pride in what our nation can do with the right mindset.

We CAn and SHOULD.
Click to expand...
Couldn't agree more. I think the biggest problem, as always, would be funding for such an ambitious restoration. I should clarify, I mean specifically for static display.
 
Hobbes said:
I think you're massively underestimating the scale and complexity of finishing a military jet aircraft. The Arrow replica was massively simplified compared to the original, for instance.
Click to expand...

Last year (I can't remember which thread it was in) I suggested that a good start for creating a full-scale Arrow 1 replica would be to recreate RL-200 which was the engineering mockup (RL-201 was the first flying airframe).
 
Considering the relative riches of engine types out there, basic flying replica's seem to be within the realms of possibillity. Not as though it would be entering service. I cannot see why it would not, like other aircraft projects, be a positive tool in educating future engineers and we are in need of a boat load of those. No error.
 
Foo Fighter said:
Considering the relative riches of engine types out there, basic flying replica's seem to be within the realms of possibillity.
Click to expand...

In regards to the Arrow 1 it used the P&W J75 and there should still be plenty of those around that could be refurbished and used in a full-scale Arrow 1 replica.
 
Nice idea, paid for by whom tho ?
Midland tried to make mockup plywood wings for their Gnat F.1 for decades (since acquiring a full airframe)
Another museum has mooted recreating a DH.108 Swallow using a Vampire pod with again ply wings, again abandoned by the reality of avaliable money, volunteers and skilled staffs.
I'd love to create a full scale Miles M.52 mockup from wood covered in thin aluminum skin, a relatively easy thing to do but time is the enemy of all of us !

reality vs wishful thinking I'm afraid
 
Last edited:
The March 2025 issue of Aeroplane has my report on a visit to the Arrow II project in Calgary. Interesting project, which I support, to build and fly an Avro Arrow.

Be nice to see something similar in the UK. Who's up for an Avro 730?

Chris
 
Considering the favouritism of all of us if there were a concensus, perhaps as a scale flyer as per the Arrow. As an exercise, could we happy few, armchair barnstormers agree on one and which one?
 
NMaude said:
Watching that clip reminds me that the British government blew a BIG opportunity by not funding the P.1121 and it was all due to that fool Duncan Sandy's and his shortsighted 1957 defence white-paper.
Click to expand...

Hawker had plenty of cash at the time, they should share an equal portion of blame for not having faith in their product and failing to carry it forward themselves. Much like the P.1083.
 
There's a few really impressive recreation of extinct types for static display which use close to original metal structures despite original information being sparse -
- Westland Whirlwind fighter (a near complete fuselage and tail, wing next )
- Henkel 100
- Henkel 178

These projects are largely the product of single individuals with the magnificent obsession and practical skills to make it happen…. When you’re that driven money isn’t a limiting factor.

Other highly impressive recreations;-
Herb Tislers Me262’s (flying) not to mention his other types.
Me163 (flying but not rocket powered)
The Dewoitine D551 (aiming at flight worthy)
The two Hawker Typhoon projects (aiming at flight worthy)
The Canadian Halifax (aiming at ground taxi)
The Short Stirling (early days but good progress)

Not metal, The six or so flight worthy DH Mosquitoes

Some of these became commercial viable ventures along the way but all started with that same obsession to just do it.

Maybe I’ve missed a few..
 
Last edited:
NMaude said:
I'd like to see someone do a full-scale replica of the foolishly cancelled (Thanks to that short-sighted fool Duncan Sandys) Saro SR-177 and the HS P.1154.
Click to expand...
I think we need to put you and uk75 into a ring to fight it out. The ultimate showdown!

In the blue corner: Mr "We should have built this British thing and should still build it today". In the red corner, Mr "Just buy American." :p

Zoo Tycoon said:
Me163 (flying but not rocket powered)
Click to expand...
In this day and age, it should not be difficult to equip it with a rocket of the same thrust capability, specifically one which will neither explode nor dissolve the pilot if the landing is a bit bumpy.
 
pathology_doc said:
I think we need to put you and uk75 into a ring to fight it out. The ultimate showdown!

In the blue corner: Mr "We should have built this British thing and should still build it today". In the red corner, Mr "Just buy American." :p


In this day and age, it should not be difficult to equip it with a rocket of the same thrust capability, specifically one which will neither explode nor dissolve the pilot if the landing is a bit bumpy.
Click to expand...

Hybrid rocket might be a good choice: burning rubber and laughing gas (N2O). Albeit that one may disagree - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCOR_EZ-Rocket
 
pathology_doc said:
In this day and age, it should not be difficult to equip it with a rocket of the same thrust capability, specifically one which will neither explode nor dissolve the pilot if the landing is a bit bumpy.
Click to expand...
Ah the mythical eco rocket fuel that’s safe to bathe babies in…..ref Ignition by John Clarke you might have to wait a few more years yet…
 
Last edited:
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Copies pop up on Ebay from time to time.

I'm hoping to take some photos of the components at Brooklands when I visit the UK in December, which might finally prompt me into a second edition.
Click to expand...

Well I hope you do a second edition because if it becomes available I'll definitely order a copy. Talking about books on on British aircraft projects that fell victim to that fool Duncan Sandy's 1957 defence white-paper, have you thought about doing a book on the Saunders Roe SR-177?
 
NMaude said:
Well I hope you do a second edition because if it becomes available I'll definitely order a copy. Talking about books on on British aircraft projects that fell victim to that fool Duncan Sandy's 1957 defence white-paper, have you thought about doing a book on the Saunders Roe SR-177?
Click to expand...
That was my intention and I've got about half the material I'd need for a comparable book on the Saunders-Roe SR-53 and SR-177 (maybe Avro 720 too), but the required other half is in a corporate archive that I have failed multiple times to get any access to. I'll try again for my December visit.
 
It has just occurred to me, @overscan (PaulMM), that a project using documentation including your book on the P.1121 could be done making a full-scale mockup of the P.1121, maybe even an engineering mockup of it and putting that on display.
 
NMaude said:
It has just occurred to me, @overscan (PaulMM), that a project using documentation including your book on the P.1121 could be done making a full-scale mockup of the P.1121, maybe even an engineering mockup of it and putting that on display.
Click to expand...
Nah, have some ambition. Build one and fly it, like the Canadians are doing with the Arrow.

Chris

PS, Why is Sandys a fool?
 
CJGibson said:
PS, Why is Sandys a fool?
Click to expand...

He had this deluded belief IIRC (No doubt due to briefings by scientists who should've known better) that missiles would replace most, if not all, aircraft in the RAF and FAA. Those extremely shortsighted aircraft projects cancellations (Excluding the English Electric Lightning as it was too far along in development) irreparably damaged the British aerospace industry.
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom