P1121 transferred from Cosford to Brooklands

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Zoo Tycoon

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Zoo Tycoon said:
If any fancies acquiring the remaining sections of the P1121 please talk to the RAF Museum as they’re going to dispose of it.
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Woever the fool is who decided to do this should be immediately dismissed from the museum.

On another note, Paul, any idea when there will be a reprint of your book because i'd love to buy a copy of it.
 
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It seems in addition to that transfer list that there is a loan list too:

Gloster Meteor F.8 (mod) WK935
Panavia Tornado Prototype XX946
Lockheed Ventura Mk.II AJ469
Percival Pembroke C.1 WV746
British Aerospace Jetstream T.1 XX496
Vickers Varsity Mk.I WL679
Boulton Paul Sea Balliol T.21 WL732
Bristol Type 188 XF926
Cody Kite
Comper C.L.A.7 Swift G-ACGL
Consolidated PBY–6A Catalina BuNo.63993
de Havilland Venom FB.4/50 J-1704
Hawker–Siddeley Argosy C.1 XP411
Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk.XVIe RW393
Vickers Valetta C.3 VX573
Source: https://warbirdsnews.com/aviation-m...for-aircraft-in-its-permanent-collection.html

Plus Duxford has announced its getting rid of its TBF Avenger - the only one in stock WW2 condition in the UK recently too.
Plus its disposing of some other bits: https://www.iwm.org.uk/sites/default/files/public-document/dispersals_disposals.pdf


Its very interesting that a lot of these are training aircraft and fair few are currently in Hangar 1 at Cosford (the transport and trainer hangar) which is basically an original hangar (most of the missiles and engines are in there too) and in truth in need of a refurb.

The question is where are all these are going to go? There aren't that many museums around in the UK able to house some of these larger exhibits (who the hell is really going to try and disassemble the Bristol 188 lug it around on a low loader and then have a hangar space to show it?).

I'd like to know what the Avro 707C is duplicating and its not been on display for years. The 707A at Manchester is going to the Boscombe Down Collection, which is hoovering up a fair few prototypes/testbeds (just recently got the prototype Jet Provost T.5 and the first production Tornado GR.1) but they can't surely have space to take every prototype remaining in the UK?

How can the B-25J not be relevant? 280 made it to these shores and were used by 2TAF.

I thought the Supermarine 517 belonged to the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton? Again its been in long-term store...
 
Woodford collection wood be the obvious home for the 707C, although they still haven't announced where the ex Manchester Shackleton is going to go so may have their hands full. Likewise I suspect the 188 would be welcomed at Filton but I'm not sure they have the space...

I suspect SWAM at St Athan and Moravia at Kinloss might nab a few airframes as they have both been quite aggressive in collecting over the last couple of years.

Zeb
 
The meteor is the prone pilot test-bed.

The Catalina and the Neptune have been outside for a long time, just wondering if there was anyone in the states that would either get the cat flying or use it for spares to keep others going?

I'm a bit soft on the Catalina, as we got one to the RAF Sealand Airshow - it landed on the glider field. Standard offer was a fuel fill up- they didnt want fuel, they wanted 100 litres of engine oil, so thats what we got them.
 
My only worry is what state museum finances might be like after 18 months of lockdowns and reduced footfall etc.
As far as I know nowhere has closed but its taken a lot of aid money to keep some places. They might bounce back but in this climate it might be optimistic to expect them to start waving cheque books - and not all museums have large amounts of indoor display space/hangarage.

I'm not adverse to seeing more stuff displayed around the country. But I am adverse to walking into a remodelled Hendon and seeing acres of empty space around me (I'm not kidding when I say the Sunderland fills an entire hall by itself). What would fill the gaps left by the Prone Meteor and 188 in the Test Flight hall?
What would replace 5 aircraft lost from Hangar 1? (that is already half empty down by the Comet end)
(and while on the subject of relevance why is there a USAF WC-130 nose section at Hendon? and if space is a premium put the plastic F-35 model out the back)
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
They are looking for a museum to take it, the logical home is Brooklands. I've made contact.

If there are costs to meet, I'd be happy to run some kind of online fundraiser!

Maybe it could tie into a second edition of my book....
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Paul, Good to hear. A natural home, and as it's in pieces maybe easier to display as a 'factory' item.
 
Hood said:
Gloster Meteor F.8 (mod) WK935
Panavia Tornado Prototype XX946
Lockheed Ventura Mk.II AJ469
Percival Pembroke C.1 WV746
British Aerospace Jetstream T.1 XX496
Vickers Varsity Mk.I WL679
Boulton Paul Sea Balliol T.21 WL732
Bristol Type 188 XF926
Cody Kite
Comper C.L.A.7 Swift G-ACGL
Consolidated PBY–6A Catalina BuNo.63993
de Havilland Venom FB.4/50 J-1704
Hawker–Siddeley Argosy C.1 XP411
Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk.XVIe RW393
Vickers Valetta C.3 VX573
Source: https://warbirdsnews.com/aviation-m...for-aircraft-in-its-permanent-collection.html

Plus Duxford has announced its getting rid of its TBF Avenger - the only one in stock WW2 condition in the UK recently too.
Plus its disposing of some other bits: https://www.iwm.org.uk/sites/default/files/public-document/dispersals_disposals.pdf
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If only I had the money........
 
From the Spring 2022 Hawker Association Newsletter

Hawker P.1121
This was a very advanced Mach 2 fighter project of the 1950s, company funded until the 1957 Sandys defence white paper made it clear the prospects of its adoption for the RAF were gone. A prototype, to be powered by the mighty DH Gyron turbojet, was well under way at the time, most of the fuselage and one wing bring built. Having been in storage for many years at the RAF Museum Duxford, these assemblies have been declared surplus to requirements. On behalf of the Association our Chairman has submitted an ‘expression of interest’ and is working closely with the Brooklands Museum management and trustees to bring the remains back to Surrey.
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I hope that in the end the prototype can be structurally completely and put on display.

On another note, Paul, when will another print run of your book be done?
 
The most annoying thing about the P.1121 is the construction of the prototype was advanced enough when that pea-brained fool Duncan Sandy's cancelled it Hawker could've completed it with company funds and tested it.
 
NMaude said:
The most annoying thing about the P.1121 is the construction of the prototype was advanced enough when that pea-brained fool Duncan Sandy's cancelled it Hawker could've completed it with company funds and tested it.
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P.1121 was never under contract at any point, so Sandys can hardly take the blame for cancelling it.

P.1103 was tendered but rejected for F155T. Hawker reworked it to P.1116 then P.1121 in anticipation of a possible multirole fighter Hunter replacement separate from the F155T interceptor requirement.

There was never official support for P.1121, but Hawker were (tacitly) encouraged to continue their private venture work in case F155T was cancelled as a fallback.

The Hunter replacement requirement didn't arrive, so P.1121 was submitted to the early GOR.339 (TSR.2) requirement and rejected, revised to two seats and rejected, then evolved further (blended with Ron Williams P.1125) into P.1129 which was also rejected.

Work on the P.1121 was ceased by Hawker when it became clear it was not going to be ordered by the RAF.

Structurally, the prototype was far from complete. Middle and front fuselage sections, a wing... still a lot of primary structure to build, let alone all the stuff to go inside.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
P.1121 was never under contract at any point, so Sandys can hardly take the blame for cancelling it.
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IMHO he can be blamed for creating the environment in which it failed. If F.155T had collapsed in an environment which allowed aircraft other than Lightning to proceed to the starting line, P.1121 might have stood more of a chance.
 
Today the P1121 components were moved from Cosford and given to Brooklands Museum.

They are initially to be stored, and then displayed after a clean-up etc.

Hawker Association members and Brooklands Museum staff have a put a lot of effort into this. It has taken time, but we seem to have got there in the end. May have some photos to post soon.
 
Awesome news. I understand why the RAF Museum is disposing of "non-RAF" types but it's still a concern that they'll be placed appropriately. Brooklands is a great choice and I hope to see it soon.
 
Slight update. Picked up on a Brooklands lorry but arriving tomorrow after a break in transit.

Elf 'n' safety. It is nearly Christmas!
Sabrejet said:
Awesome news. I understand why the RAF Museum is disposing of "non-RAF" types but it's still a concern that they'll be placed appropriately. Brooklands is a great choice and I hope to see it soon.
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There was a wing at Cranfield of which I’ve seen photos. It only had a skin installed on one surface, the other being exposed showing the systems installation.

It was always unclear if the wing made it to Cosford;- early reports of the P1121 transfer suggested it was the partial fuselage and one wing. However as time went on only the fuselage (2/3 of it) was confirmed at Cosford.

So during the clear out, did the wing show up?
 
Yes, the wing is part of what Brooklands will have. The biggest part. There has been some discussion about how to display it and wing off seems likely to me as it is 7m x 5m. That is all some time off though.
 
Mike Pryce said:
Yes, the wing is part of what Brooklands will have. The biggest part. There has been some discussion about how to display it and wing off seems likely to me as it is 7m x 5m. That is all some time off though.
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I should add that the airframe will be stored off-site initially so no chance of seeing it at the museum yet. It won't be trundling in there tomorrow
 
Hood said:
Plus Duxford has announced its getting rid of its TBF Avenger - the only one in stock WW2 condition in the UK recently too.
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This has found a home at the reworked U534 exhibition at Woodside, Birkenhead. The museum is still at the planning stage so its currently stored in a secure facility nearby car park in Birkenhead docks...

Yes... really! Managed to catch it last month... It's behind locked gates but even so, there are numerous reasons why this storage arrangement is concerning...

Zeb
 

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I hope that eventually the P.1121 prototype airframe can be completed so it can be put on static display as a complete airframe.

Edit: @overscan (PaulMM) , any possibility of a second print run of your book on the P.1121?
 
Mike Pryce said:
Yes, the wing is part of what Brooklands will have. The biggest part. There has been some discussion about how to display it and wing off seems likely to me as it is 7m x 5m. That is all some time off though.
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NMaude said:
I hope that eventually the P.1121 prototype airframe can be completed so it can be put on static display as a complete airframe.

Edit: @overscan (PaulMM) , any possibility of a second print run of your book on the P.1121?
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That is the idea. Brooklands has an 'Aircraft Factory' exhibit, which is perfect for the P1121.
 
blippedyblop said:
Any update on how it's fairing, and what the current plans are in terms of storage/ display?
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What would be nice is if BAe opened up its' technical archives given any would be restorers access to (And allowing copies be made) the P.1121's engineering drawings along with access to engineering drawings used for the jigs and tooling while also giving technical help. What would be good is if the prototype is structurally completed so it can be put on display.
 
Its only most of a fuselage and one wing, "completing" it would be - challenging.

Not sure if detailed engineering drawings would have survived even until Kingston closed down. BAE Systems Farnborough didn't have anything. Brooklands themselves might have something.
 
NMaude said:
What would be nice is if BAe opened up its' technical archives given any would be restorers access to (And allowing copies be made) the P.1121's engineering drawings along with access to engineering drawings used for the jigs and tooling while also giving technical help. What would be good is if the prototype is structurally completed so it can be put on display.
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If the goal is "display," then the missing pieces can be filled it with foam and fiberglass... so long as it's done well. If there is skin missing from the existing fuselage/wing components, all the better: fill in missing wings and such with fakes, use the existing incompleteness to show interior structure.

Perpetual battle between conservation and restoration.
 
NMaude said:
What would be nice is if BAe opened up its' technical archives given any would be restorers access to (And allowing copies be made) the P.1121's engineering drawings along with access to engineering drawings used for the jigs and tooling while also giving technical help. What would be good is if the prototype is structurally completed so it can be put on display.
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"And in the secret workshop, duplication proceeded." :p
 
Flight Manual or brochure?

I have an original brochure but never seen hints of a flight manual. If that existed I would be surprised but happy.
 

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