Northrop Grumman "RQ-180"

On Dreamland some are saying it’s Chinese. But I thought their flying wings were still in development and not operationally deployed?
 
Flyaway said:
On Dreamland some are saying it’s Chinese. But I thought their flying wings were still in development and not operationally deployed?
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Or we just don't know. But I doubt it's Chinese as I doubt they have engines for high-altitude ISR platform (yet).
This one has very distinctive broad central wing section with unproportionally looking thin wing consoles that pretty match 2020 sighting
 
flateric said:
Flyaway said:
On Dreamland some are saying it’s Chinese. But I thought their flying wings were still in development and not operationally deployed?
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Or we just don't know. But I doubt it's Chinese as I doubt they have engines for high-altitude ISR platform (yet).
This one has very distinctive broad central wing section with unproportionally looking thin wing consoles that pretty match 2020 sighting
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From your first statement does that preclude it using a derivative of the F135, could that be adapted for such operations?
 
Flyaway said:
On Dreamland some are saying it’s Chinese. But I thought their flying wings were still in development and not operationally deployed?
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If you give it the benefit of doubt of being chinese, then you'll also have to concede that it flew over US airspace last year, which imho is quite a stretch.
 
On the other hand, US air defences have seen much better days, so I wouldn't rule it out just yet.
 
Grey Havoc said:
On the other hand, US air defences have seen much better days, so I wouldn't rule it out just yet.
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Nearest chinese airfield from US mainland coast is 6000+ miles away, so yeah, nope.
If china does have such a platform, then the first sightings will be from Taiwan, Japan, India, Australia and probably Guam, if not from Chinese mainland itself.
 
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The PRC has bases and/or available staging areas a lot closer than that these days, I believe.
 
Grey Havoc said:
The PRC has bases and/or available staging areas a lot closer than that these days, I believe.
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Nothing they’d park a black project in, I’d wager. In any case, the challenges and risks associated with operating a cutting edge UAV over opponent airspace on the other side of the world are sufficiently problematic we can probably dismiss the idea of RQ-180 flying over the PRC, let alone the PLAAF running an equivalent over the US.
 
Josh_TN said:
Grey Havoc said:
The PRC has bases and/or available staging areas a lot closer than that these days, I believe.
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Nothing they’d park a black project in, I’d wager. In any case, the challenges and risks associated with operating a cutting edge UAV over opponent airspace on the other side of the world are sufficiently problematic we can probably dismiss the idea of RQ-180 flying over the PRC, let alone the PLAAF running an equivalent over the US.
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This isn't anything new, our government has a risk appetite for it in the interest of National Security. But it's most likely not the USAF conducting the operations.
 
In_A_Dream said:
Josh_TN said:
Grey Havoc said:
The PRC has bases and/or available staging areas a lot closer than that these days, I believe.
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Nothing they’d park a black project in, I’d wager. In any case, the challenges and risks associated with operating a cutting edge UAV over opponent airspace on the other side of the world are sufficiently problematic we can probably dismiss the idea of RQ-180 flying over the PRC, let alone the PLAAF running an equivalent over the US.
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This isn't anything new, our government has a risk appetite for it in the interest of National Security. But it's most likely not the USAF conducting the operations.
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The only US aircraft I know of that crossed the USSR were U-2s and the D-21, and the US shootdown of the former was rather embarrassing (and I seem to recall the Soviets recovered parts of the latter). I can't picture an RQ-180 operating directly over the mainland. Ignoring political factors, having the Chinese recover any part of it were it to go down for any reason would probably compromise a lot of technology.
 
Josh_TN said:
The only US aircraft I know of that crossed the USSR were U-2s and the D-21, and the US shootdown of the former was rather embarrassing (and I seem to recall the Soviets recovered parts of the latter). I can't picture an RQ-180 operating directly over the mainland. Ignoring political factors, having the Chinese recover any part of it were it to go down for any reason would probably compromise a lot of technology.
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IIRC the D-21 was not intentional, it was meant for Lop Nor, malfunctioned and flew into the USSR, at least according to Ben Rich in Skunk Works. As others have stated there were other incursions and shoot downs before Gary Powers.

Back on topic, a few thoughts. I see the photos and wonder if they're pulling a RQ-170 type acknowledgement. Second some of the reports indicate there was an international exercise in the area at the time and the there's now an integration effort underway with combined forces.

My $.02
 
It's a very complicated and tortured history: there was a "before / after" the U-2 (1950-1955 then 1956-1960), and then of course FG Power was shot down (1960) and only border penetration flights happened afterwards.

Note that as late as 1978 IRIAF RF-5s and RF-4s penetrated Soviet airspace at extreme risks for the CIA - Project IBEX and DARK GENE. They took some losses.
ROCAF did a similar job over the PRC from 1958 to 1968, taking severe losses. The ROCAF / PRC air war was quite crazy.

RQ-180 make some sense as a U-2 & SR-71 successor in the strategic reconnaissance role. It is a mix of stealth & drone, just like Ryan AQM-91 and Lockheed D-21B were back in the day: 50 years ago.
Basic lessons
- ultra-high speed is too expensive and complicated even today: it is not possible to evade something S-300 or S-400 through speed.
Note that in 2007 an AEGIS ship was used to shoot a satellite, and it also has capability against IRBMs and ICBMs. Against such systems, an airbreathing vehicle (SR-72, is that thou ?) whatever its speed has no chance of survival.
- stealth can afford to be subsonic and thus much less expensive to procure and sustain over the long term
- drone technology has matured at least, in the 90's - thanks to GPS guidance - so no need to risk a pilot.
In the 60's without GPS drones had to rely on INS (gyroscopes) that drifted across flight time and distance, up to 2 miles. Star trackers were used to try and correct that drift, but that wasn't enough. In the case of AQM-91, the guidance system all by itself was so tricky and cost so much, it sunk the program. GPS by comparison has become dirt cheap - even if it has its own flaws.
 
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As viewed from below, that could match the recent observation...
 
Kamie said:
Is it correct about "RQ-180"? :)
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If you are asking whether it is really called the RQ-180, then that is up for debate. Bill Sweetman of Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine insisted that at least one of his sources called its the RQ-180. That designation makes little sense, even if the design was implemented after the RQ-170 Sentinel. The only reason the sentinel is called the RQ-170 is because it began as the P-170, a typical in-house designation from the manufacturer, Lockheed Martin Skunk Works. (Think of the P-175 Polecat) Someone just removed the P and stuck an RQ on the official designation when it went operational. (Think of X-35 vs. F-35)

The new stealthy UAV was built by Northrop Grumman so it should have its own unique designation. Then again, maybe someone got lazy (or clever). Aviation author Chris Pocock prefers to call the new UAV the P-ISR (Penetrating-Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance), a term that was used to describe the platform in declassified briefings.
 
Forest Green said:
In_A_Dream said:
The B-21 companion has been publicly spotted more times than the F-117 companion, lol.
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Companion?
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The B-21 was designed to be one part of a "family of systems" that fulfill various recce/strike roles. Analysts judge the "RQ-180" to be the penetrating ISR component of this family.
 
sublight is back said:
This pic was taken on Saturday Oct 30th 2021 at the Groom Lake back gate.

View attachment 667127
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A couple of interesting things...
- It was flying on a Saturday, which is unusual. Groom Lake is typically closed on weekends.
- The observers heard it
- The observers and photos show a contrail

The observers were able to use the lens settings, etc. of the photo to estimate the distance to the aircraft, and from that the altitude. The "RQ-180" supposedly has a wingspan of 130'. If the aircraft in the photo has a wingspan of 130' it is flying at over 60k feet. At 60k it would be very unusual for it to be creating a contrail or be heard. On the other hand, if the aircraft in the photo is closer to 75' wingspan it could be flying much lower, 40k or less where it could create a contrail and may be heard.

It looks a lot like Polecat. The overall configuration is what you will get if you try to design a VLO flying wing (4-spikes), so that is not very telling. The exhaust placement is very much like Polecat. And it may be the size of Polecat.

It may be an entirely different aircraft than "RQ-180". Or much of the information reported in the press about "RQ-180" may be incorrect.

At this point though who else wants to start an RQ-180 instagram account? If NG sends a cease and desist that might confirm the program exists!
 
Exactly, and the family of systems concept isn't necessarily new, just new branding. There have always been support aircraft (although less fully integrated) fulfilling various roles in missions. The gap in USAF EW escorts for stealth and non-stealth aircraft has always been a big "Look at me, Look at me!" for the inquisitive aero-nerds.
 
quellish said:
It looks a lot like Polecat. The overall configuration is what you will get if you try to design a VLO flying wing (4-spikes), so that is not very telling. The exhaust placement is very much like Polecat. And it may be the size of Polecat.
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The Polecat's wings are wider along its longitudinal axis relative to its body. The aircraft in the photo has much slimmer wings relative to its body, similar to SensorCraft.
 
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I’ve long thought we might get some kind of announcement about it around the same time that the B-21 is publicly unveiled.
 
With the tensions escalating quickly between Russia and Ukraine, I think it’s a safe bet the RQ-180 is deployed in Europe. I’m wondering which airbases would be suitable for such a covert deployment. Anyone who has an educated guess?
 
Q-nimbus said:
With the tensions escalating quickly between Russia and Ukraine, I think it’s a safe bet the RQ-180 is deployed in Europe. I’m wondering which airbases would be suitable for such a covert deployment. Anyone who has an educated guess?
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There are geographically opportune airfields all around; not sure if any of those have the facilities or US manpower to handle a highly sensitive asset. Turkey, perhaps, but that involves some risk.

For the time being NATO is surveilling the whole of Ukraine, Baltics, North Sea and the western parts of Russia in a very public manner. That is part necessity, part a very conscious show of presence; some flights have come under Russian harassment. At any given day there have been more than a dozen flights of anything from Guardrails and Poseidons to Global Hawks etc. Notably for the last week or so only unmanned assets have flown in the Ukrainian airspace and the Global Hawks' flight paths have become highly complicated. It might be that as a security precaution - against spoofing or other hostile acts - they are flown by human ground station pilots at all times. There are currently several open source researchers following and cataloging all of these flights as they do tend to fly with transponders on.

I don't know what an "RQ-180" could contribute to NATO's situational awareness at this point. Its purpose and capabilities remain speculative. I don't know whether this qualifies as an "educated" guess but perhaps clarifies the current environment somewhat.
 
UpForce said:
Q-nimbus said:
I don't know what an "RQ-180" could contribute to NATO's situational awareness at this point. Its purpose and capabilities remain speculative. I don't know whether this qualifies as an "educated" guess but perhaps clarifies the current environment somewhat.
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I was asking this assuming the RQ-180 is a P-ISR platform, but you’re right, we don’t know for sure.

I don’t think the RQ-170 is able to penetrate the European part of Russia, but that is an assumption on my side. The RQ-170 is expendable so surely it would be handy to have a few nearby.

If they want to penetrate Russia if war broke out with the Ukraine (and I’m guessing it will happen this weekend), it would make much sense to have a P-ISR platform nearby. The USA won’t fight Russia directly (at least for now), but if they can provide information that could make a big difference.

It might also be overkill to deploy the RQ-180 in Europe.

But if it is deployed in Europe, Incirlik is a good option. UK and Norway might also be an option.
 
TomcatViP said:
If we are guessing for something based in Europe, that would be more an RQ-170 IMOHO.
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Agree. RQ-180 would have a range such that it wouldn't actually be based in Europe in the first place. Since one was seen over the Philippines, we can assume it either has a huge endurance or in flight refueling capability. Most likely the former. One assumes it would have an RQ-4 level of range and time on station. In which case it might still operate largely from the CONUS. I was thinking Diego Garcia would be an option, but it isn't much closer than the western United States and the great circle route to Ukraine over the pole would overfly fewer countries. Although if there already was a unit set up in Diego it might make for more discrete sorties than from the US. By the time it made land fall it would be at its cruising altitude and all but invisible. The flight over the PI might point to units transferring to and from Diego; that would be consistent with a flight from the Indian ocean to US island possessions like Wake. Both of those locations have no civilian population to observe take offs and landings.

I'd assume RQ-170s were locally based an available for when/if the conflict goes hot and RQ-4s were too vulnerable to operate over Ukraine/Black Sea. I doubt the Russians would have any problem shooting an unmanned asset down and RQ-4s would be pretty easy to target. The RQ-170s would represent less cutting edge tech than RQ-180 so there would be less risk using it; not sure USAF would be comfortable operating RQ-180 in an environment where they weren't engaged in a hot war but could still lose one. RQ-170s on the other hand are a relatively expendable asset. I'd think the UK would be the base for them; the UK-US relationship is much closer than other NATO members. Alternatively Akrotiri would be a UK operated base that would put them closer for easy transit and far enough removed such that they would be difficult to interdict. I think Turkey is a non starter for any future US basing; that relationship is poisoned while "Just the Tayyip" is in power. I think the USAF has trimmed its presence in Incirlik back to just tankers.
 
Q-nimbus said:
I don’t think the RQ-170 is able to penetrate the European part of Russia, but that is an assumption on my side.
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Once Iranians got their hands on one, it's a safe bet that Russians will also have gotten intimately familiar with it. I think it's at least widely suspected that the downing of RQ-170 was a "joint effort" from the beginning. Not that it couldn't have been modified for increased survivability since the incident, but still, my (very superficial) impression is that the RQ-170 was tailored towards a Middle East, high value anti-terrorism mission specifically.

Q-nimbus said:
If they want to penetrate Russia if war broke out with the Ukraine (and I’m guessing it will happen this weekend), it would make much sense to have a P-ISR platform nearby. The USA won’t fight Russia directly (at least for now), but if they can provide information that could make a big difference.
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Hard to tell what options are available for contingencies like Ukrainian airspace becoming kinetically contested. Depends on the stakes, whatever they are. It's not exactly a secret that NATO shares information with Ukraine, the Russian regime seems to really struggle with losing much of the element of surprise. It has proven to be a sensible form of deterrence to actually not only share with relevant parties but also go public with what is known about their troops' movements and other designs. It would be more problematic to do so with information that could only come from something like the "RQ-180", risking revealing "methods and sources".

Certainly at this point, looking at current platforms' notional sensor ranges, NATO would seem to have visibility so deep into Russia (from Ukraine) that basically all relevant Russian forces can be surveilled (not least because more than half of their land armies are in such close proximity to the border by necessity of being capable to invade in the first place). Russia continues to have a lot of EW capability in the area and are renowned to have invested heavily in it but so far I've seen no public facing reporting about any sort of interference being run towards NATO flights. I would be surprised if there was none (witness the change in Global Hawks' flight paths) since during the last decade Russians have generally shown little to no qualms about trying to mess with others in the EM spectrum under far less fraught circumstances.

As old crows would have it it's a game of cat and mouse and while Russian EW is nothing to sneer at, any Ukrainians with relevant experience will also tell you that it's not the 12 ft tall giant it's made out to be, the Russians' best efforts not being able to entirely disrupt signals or situational awareness. Certainly the Russians' prime objective here is not hostile acquisition of technology but ending Ukraines sovereignty in one or another manner but it's certainly an opportunistic risk anyway. The tech that the "RQ-180" could carry is very interesting, the ancestry of its stealthy sensors probably going back to Have Blue (edit: should've been Tacit Blue, silly me), through B-2 and whatnot.

Q-nimbus said:
It might also be overkill to deploy the RQ-180 in Europe.

But if it is deployed in Europe, Incirlik is a good option. UK and Norway might also be an option.
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Haven't followed sightings closely but the only ones I know of are from Western US, the Pacific and that Northrop Grumman promotional video. Thinking about deployments "out of the box", perhaps even Akrotiri and Qatar come into question - wildly speculative though, just banter really.

Josh_TN said:
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Josh TN managed to post before I could finish writing mine, didn't edit the above to react to all of it. Good points about the RQ-170, somewhat along the same lines as me.
 
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