Northrop Grumman B-21 Raider (LRS-B)

[sferrin]

Which works out well, as another Aero Engineer who attended school with me and reviewed my work said he figured it should be able to carry one MOAB which weighs around 21,000 lbs.

MOAB is shoved out the back of a C-130, and is not carried by any bomber. MOP (GBU-57), which is carried by the B-52 and B-2, weighs 30,000lbs.

MOAB
View attachment 642335

MOP (GBU-57)
View attachment 642336

Yeah, meant MOP. Such is life.

But MOP doesn't weigh 21,000lbs. It weighs 30,000lbs.

 

[sublight_]

I assumed it would operate at 50,000 to 55,000 ft.

I saw figures of 60,000 to 70,000 in one presentation.

 

[Josh_TN]

B-2's use a pressurized cabin, right? At some point just above 60K you run into the problem of water boiling.

 

[flateric]

My analysis of the B-21 is based off of the first two images shown below; the third is what I generated.

This is another official planform image. Needless to say it may be pure disinformation with altered proportions as it doesn't match original 2016 rendering.
Rounded tips though match newly released "in hangar' renderings

Striking similarity to original high-altitude Senior CJ

 

[quellish]

My understanding is that was Lockheed-Martin, not Northrop-Grumman. But that has to do with structural efficiency by lowering the structural weight of the wing. Also, you don't need high aspect ratio wings for high altitude. You need a large wing area. See the Avro Vulcan. The design I showed above is based off the information released by N-G in the images above, so far. If you have other information actual from them, please provide it. BTW, I assumed it would operate at 50,000 to 55,000 ft.

BFF and X-56 were both based on an (older) Lockheed platform (early QUARTZ) that had flutter issues at altitude (which killed that configuration in that program). The configuration was not representative of any LRS-B work and was not explictly risk reduction for LRS-B and findings from those test programs would have been too late for LRS-B.

 

[quellish]

But MOP doesn't weigh 21,000lbs. It weighs 30,000lbs.

From what I understand, having discussed it with people who should know, MOP was not driving requirements for LRS-B. It was not intended for LRS-B to carry it.

In general there has been a mentality in recent years that conventional weapons can be developed / modified for the platform, rather than the platform being designed around the weapon. Hypersonic and unconventional weapons are a different story. There were other penetrating weapons in development that were intended for LRS-B (and others) and would have fit within more conventional envelopes. I do not know the current status of those programs.

 

[bob225]

I assumed it would operate at 50,000 to 55,000 ft.

I saw figures of 60,000 to 70,000 in one presentation.

Couldn't the Avro Vulcan fly up at 50-55K??

 

[sferrin]

I assumed it would operate at 50,000 to 55,000 ft.

I saw figures of 60,000 to 70,000 in one presentation.

Couldn't the Avro Vulcan fly up at 50-55K??

I'd read 60k to 65k.

 

[rooster]

Doesn't flying too high have penalties in observability? My limited knowledge is that infrared signatures travel further at higher altitudes because there is less atmospheric absorbing occurring because of fewer molecules hence making something more visible in that spectrum. Also by flying higher the aircraft is illuminated sooner by radar as the target appears over the horizon sooner. Though there are no satellite constellations now that look down for stealth aircraft I understand that the early warning satellites are sensitive enough to in theory detect aircraft exhaust. Hence being too high has a penalty to satellites and other high flying sensor platforms in the ir spectrum

Don't flame me too badly. I work in automotive engineering.

 

[Dragon029]

Flying higher is advantageous for modern stealth aircraft simply because:
1. You're immune to AAA.
2. Your own sensors can detect threats earlier and allow you to route around them.
3. Your weapons have more range (especially if they're glide weapons), meaning you can stay further away from the target.

 

[TomcatViP]

Higher = colder also (lower emissivity).

 

[helmutkohl]

The Air Force Plans to Retrain Weapons System Officers to Be B-21 Bomber Pilots

The Air Force plans to slash the number of weapons system officers by half to make room for more pilots, a top general said.

www.military.com

 

[Flyaway]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1323724968342028289

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/TheDEWLine/status/1323724968342028289

 

[TomS]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1323724968342028289

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/TheDEWLine/status/1323724968342028289

Kinda doubt it. There's a 2-bay KC-46 hangar design that is about 90k sf. (It's actually sized up to C-17 and KC-10). About a third of the floor space is offices/shops. So basically a 95k sf hangar could hold almost anything.

KC-46A DUAL BAY GENERAL MAINTENANCE HANGAR | Blairremy

www.blairremy.com

 

[RetiredAFGuy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1323724968342028289

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/TheDEWLine/status/1323724968342028289

I think they threw a blinder over the B-21 size issue by specifying that there be two bays sized to accept a "B-2A Spirit". Looks like the bays will be oversized for the B-21.

 

[flateric]

Can you please stay on topic? Thank you.

 

[quellish]

Will we with the B-21 finally get a stealth bomber that can dynamically compute engagement/detection ranges and let the crew figure out dynamically how to defeat enemy defenses

B-2 and F-22 already do this, but probably not quite as dynamically as you are envisioning.

 

[mkellytx]

Will we with the B-21 finally get a stealth bomber that can dynamically compute engagement/detection ranges and let the crew figure out dynamically how to defeat enemy defenses

B-2 and F-22 already do this, but probably not quite as dynamically as you are envisioning.

Thanks Quellish,

The last time I interacted with the B-2 was 2008, so that wouldn't surprise. There were whispers about Raptor, but never saw anything public other than the range rings on the God's eye screen, heck even Link 16 had those but those weren't dynamically computed based on the aspect to even a preprogrammed threat.

 

[Josh_TN]

I have heard anecdotally that defense EW of the B-2 has been problematic and never fully resolved, but nothing official. Technology seems to have caught up for the F-35 and presumably a lot of BAEs equipment will be installed on the B-21.

 

[Trident]

Hopefully, Northrop delivers on budget and there are enough B-21's to properly replace the worn out Bones.

On that basis I propose the B-21 be nicknamed "Prosthesis"

 

[Flyaway]

This includes authorizer’s approval for full funding of Northrop Grumman’s B-21 stealth bomber, including the first year of procurement funds, the HASC summary said. The Air Force had requested $2.8 billion for Raider R&D, and some $193 million in 2022 to launch procurement of the 100 aircraft the service has said it needs.

NDAA Adds 14 F-35s, OKs $9.1B; Fully Funds B-21 - Breaking Defense

Authorizers want CAPE to assess costs and risks of the "aggressive and uncertain plan" Digital Century Series approach to acquire NGAD aircraft.

breakingdefense.com

 

[Flyaway]

This could really be posted in a number of different threads considering its breadth of coverage.

Secret Bomber Programs Set For Possible Rollouts In 2021 | Aviation Week Network

Strategic bombers are enjoying a stealthy renaissance amid renewed competition among great power states: the U.S., China and Russia.

aviationweek.com

 

[griml0ck122]

This could really be posted in a number of different threads considering its breadth of coverage.

Secret Bomber Programs Set For Possible Rollouts In 2021 | Aviation Week Network

Strategic bombers are enjoying a stealthy renaissance amid renewed competition among great power states: the U.S., China and Russia.

aviationweek.com

I wonder if this article has guessed right. I mean the b-21 has to come out in public soon (unless they want to truck it in pieces to A51) and it's only a matter of time until the H-20 or JH-XX show up. I however do not know if there are any significant national anniversaries in china that they would wait for but i also think that the PLAAF might just fly it around at random, for shock value.

 

[mkellytx]

This could really be posted in a number of different threads considering its breadth of coverage.

Secret Bomber Programs Set For Possible Rollouts In 2021 | Aviation Week Network

Strategic bombers are enjoying a stealthy renaissance amid renewed competition among great power states: the U.S., China and Russia.

aviationweek.com

I wonder if this article has guessed right. I mean the b-21 has to come out in public soon (unless they want to truck it in pieces to A51) and it's only a matter of time until the H-20 or JH-XX show up. I however do not know if there are any significant national anniversaries in china that they would wait for but i also think that the PLAAF might just fly it around at random, for shock value.

They won't truck it to Groom, it will fly out of Plant 42 north to ED and be housed on South Base. That facility is plenty secure and they've been updating it quite a bit since the time I worked down there.

 

[flateric]

I wonder if this article has guessed right. I mean the b-21 has to come out in public soon (unless they want to truck it in pieces to A51) and it's only a matter of time until the H-20 or JH-XX show up. I however do not know if there are any significant national anniversaries in china that they would wait for but i also think that the PLAAF might just fly it around at random, for shock value.

I wonder if you have tracked B-21 history or read this thread before "wondering".
First flight slipped from December 2021 to unknown date in 2022 (and it may well be 4Q) due to murmured system integration issues that popped up well before COVID made situation somewhat worse. So what is 'soon' in your definition?

 

[Josh_TN]

It seems possible B-21 could still rollout in 2021. It seems very unlikely anyone actually flies their next bomber that year however. The article that discusses all three aircraft says the initial PAK-DA is under construction which was news to me.

 

[TomcatViP]

Reading the post from @AN/AWW-14(V) about the last Boeing Laser containerized system, I was wondering if tomorrow will see the comeback of turreted bombers.
Imagine a chin and tail mounted laser turrets on the venerable B-52 or what kind of mount the B-21 will have.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Has the half payload capacity been proven yet?

 

[flateric]

Off-topic posts moved to more appropriate topics

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/usaf-to-retire-b-1-b-2-in-early-2030s-as-b-21-comes-on-line.30045/

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/arsenal-plane-concepts.28903/

 

[FighterJock]

Reading the post from @AN/AWW-14(V) about the last Boeing Laser containerized system, I was wondering if tomorrow will see the comeback of turreted bombers.
Imagine a chin and tail mounted laser turrets on the venerable B-52 or what kind of mount the B-21 will have.

I like the sound of Stealth Bombers (especially the B-21A) armed with laser turrets TomcatVIP, they could be able to use them as both offensive and defensive weapons.

 

[rooster]

Reading the post from @AN/AWW-14(V) about the last Boeing Laser containerized system, I was wondering if tomorrow will see the comeback of turreted bombers.
Imagine a chin and tail mounted laser turrets on the venerable B-52 or what kind of mount the B-21 will have.

I like the sound of Stealth Bombers (especially the B-21A) armed with laser turrets TomcatVIP, they could be able to use them as both offensive and defensive weapons.

Well how many MJ are you going to get out of a small ball turret laser to damage anything? Being youre not going to pump much energy into the beam you need a long time on target all the while the platform is bouncing about the sky..... Plus you need good weather as a weak laser is going to lose energy passing through clouds. An antimissile missile for large SAMs, yes. Laser weapons, no. I think theusaf would have fielded an antimissile laser platform by now if it were feasible.... The first application of a laser weapon on an airplane would likely be on a c130 gunship used to blind enemy combatants

 

[TomcatViP]

@rooster: lasing combatants eyes would be a violation of the Geneva convention. You don''t.

Sadly there is yet nothing that protects them against being fried alive by HPMW organs after organs.

 

[Josh_TN]

Actually a high altitude bomber would probably be an ideal environment for defensive laser technology in terms of weather, beam attenuation, and stability of the firing platform. I think such weapons would be limited to defensive close range engagements, but that would still be game changing if you could spit out tens of tons of ordnance without threat of counter fire.

 

[rooster]

An unstealthy retractable ball turret is all youre gonna get on a smallish B-21 that doesn't have enough power or stability to hold its narrow beam to a constant few sq inches on a missile to zap a mach 3+ missile. Space. Weight. Complexity. Heating and cooling aspects. Sensors. Not happening. It'll become unstealthy in order to open some doors and lower the turret. Not happening.

 

[rooster]

@rooster: lasing combatants eyes would be a violation of the Geneva convention. You don''t.

Sadly there is yet nothing that protects them against being fried alive by HPMW organs after organs.

At the very least optical dazzling isn't against the rules of what.

 

[TomcatViP]

When will the B-21 stealth bomber be officially revealed?

The B-21 Raider, the successor to the B-2 stealth bomber, may be revealed in an official rollout within the next 12 months.

www.aero-mag.com

Spirit Aerosystems, which builds the large composite aerostructures for the B-21 bomber, also manufactures structural components for the 737 Max. Since the halting of Max production, employees who would normally work on the aircraft programme have been boosting production of the B-21 bomber.

“The folks that are not manufacturing 737s and those components came over to our production line and really kind of beefed up — where people had some COVID issues — they beefed up that portion of our production,” he said. “Right now, the components that we’re building are really for the test fleet, but the good news: All of what we’re doing today is really insightful for what we’re doing for production in the future.”

 

[FighterJock]

When will the B-21 stealth bomber be officially revealed?

The B-21 Raider, the successor to the B-2 stealth bomber, may be revealed in an official rollout within the next 12 months.

www.aero-mag.com

Spirit Aerosystems, which builds the large composite aerostructures for the B-21 bomber, also manufactures structural components for the 737 Max. Since the halting of Max production, employees who would normally work on the aircraft programme have been boosting production of the B-21 bomber.

“The folks that are not manufacturing 737s and those components came over to our production line and really kind of beefed up — where people had some COVID issues — they beefed up that portion of our production,” he said. “Right now, the components that we’re building are really for the test fleet, but the good news: All of what we’re doing today is really insightful for what we’re doing for production in the future.”

I hope that the B-21 will be rolled out by the end of this year followed by first flight sometime early next year.

 

[RavenOne]

When will the B-21 stealth bomber be officially revealed?

The B-21 Raider, the successor to the B-2 stealth bomber, may be revealed in an official rollout within the next 12 months.

www.aero-mag.com

Spirit Aerosystems, which builds the large composite aerostructures for the B-21 bomber, also manufactures structural components for the 737 Max. Since the halting of Max production, employees who would normally work on the aircraft programme have been boosting production of the B-21 bomber.

“The folks that are not manufacturing 737s and those components came over to our production line and really kind of beefed up — where people had some COVID issues — they beefed up that portion of our production,” he said. “Right now, the components that we’re building are really for the test fleet, but the good news: All of what we’re doing today is really insightful for what we’re doing for production in the future.”

Hmmm reading this article on GA pilot flying edge of box on a jolly and wonderd laughingly if what he caught on camera of the scoot-and-shoot hangar could be the Raider. Looks Delta and smaller than B-2 as the usaf kinda hinted with a CHI it be smaller.

Let's Talk About This Intriguing Object Seen In The Scoot-And-Hide Hangar At Area 51

A recent photo taken of Groom Lake by a private pilot shows what appears to be a dagger-shaped object in one of the facility's aircraft shelters.

www.thedrive.com

 

[In_A_Dream]

There is no way to distinguish what we're looking at in that hangar.

 

[Sundog]

It definitely isn't the B-21, whatever it is.