Northrop Grumman B-21 Raider (LRS-B)

Flyaway said:
I find it surprising that a classified program is going to have a public unveiling according to that article before it has even flown.
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Well it's not an operationally classified aircraft like some of the ISR ones, but its capabilities are definitely classified, some sharing commonality with the F-35. A lot of the systems have probably been tested on plenty of demonstrators over the years (and implemented on other aircraft) and perfecting a LO design isn't that difficult with modern computers and years of understanding. Since the USAF is the only one with their hand in the cookie jar and the Northrop folks are Gods of the Flying Wing world, this will probably fair better than projects in the past. And it really needs to, we don't have a choice anymore.
 
In_A_Dream said:
Since the USAF is the only one with their hand in the cookie jar and the Northrop folks are Gods of the Flying Wing world, this will probably fair better than projects in the past.
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Even with all the know-how of each isolated technology, system integration is usually where the challenge is and where engineers filing for divorce. So this thing is just as susceptible to delay and cost overruns as any othe programs.
 
donnage99 said:
In_A_Dream said:
Since the USAF is the only one with their hand in the cookie jar and the Northrop folks are Gods of the Flying Wing world, this will probably fair better than projects in the past.
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Even with all the know-how of each isolated technology, system integration is usually where the challenge is and where engineers filing for divorce. So this thing is just as susceptible to delay and cost overruns as any othe programs.
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You’d think they’d be leveraging lessons learnt with the RQ-180 in some areas and vice versa.
 
Flyaway said:
You’d think they’d be leveraging lessons learnt with the RQ-180 in some areas and vice versa.
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Yes, I thought that's why they chose Northrop for the B-21 because their offering wasn't as exotic as what was pitched by the other primes.
 
I seriously doubt we will sell anyone else the B-21. Having said that, I can see the USAF basing some B-21s in Australia.
 
Sundog said:
I seriously doubt we will sell anyone else the B-21. Having said that, I can see the USAF basing some B-21s in Australia.
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An Australian buy doesn’t appear very likely.
Australia would be doing well to sustain it’s current level of defense expenditure; the required options massive hike for B-21s or ripping it out of the guts of every other Australian defense program would appear to be remote possibilities.
 
Wouldn’t it likely end up being like the F-22 not permissible to sell abroad.

US seemingly confirms potential for Aussie B-21 participation

A little over a month ago, Defence Connect revealed what at the time seemed like a slip of the tongue by the head of the US Air Force's Global Strike Command, General Timothy Ray regarding the pot
www.defenceconnect.com.au www.defenceconnect.com.au

This article posted above also talks about the U.K. as well as Australia.
 
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The articles seem to perceive the B-21 as being more like the F-111 in its function. In which case I can understand more their logic in thinking other countries might want to buy it. TBH providing the allies are sufficiently trusted I don’t see why they shouldn’t sell it to other countries especially if it helps with the costs.
 
Flyaway said:
The articles seem to perceive the B-21 as being more like the F-111 in its function. In which case I can understand more their logic in thinking other countries might want to buy it. TBH providing the allies are sufficiently trusted I don’t see why they shouldn’t sell it to other countries especially if it helps with the costs.
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Japanese could trade radius for deeper magazines of anti-ship and land attack munitions, where the Aussies would use excess weapons bay space for fuel. The Chinese influence on Australia is highly problematic though.
 
NUSNA_Moebius said:
Flyaway said:
The articles seem to perceive the B-21 as being more like the F-111 in its function. In which case I can understand more their logic in thinking other countries might want to buy it. TBH providing the allies are sufficiently trusted I don’t see why they shouldn’t sell it to other countries especially if it helps with the costs.
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Japanese could trade radius for deeper magazines of anti-ship and land attack munitions, where the Aussies would use excess weapons bay space for fuel. The Chinese influence on Australia is highly problematic though.
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Chinese influence on Australia?
 
Sundog said:
I seriously doubt we will sell anyone else the B-21. Having said that, I can see the USAF basing some B-21s in Australia.
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I don't know about permanent basing but I don't believe there are US bombers "based" at Andersen either and they seem to be there on a continuous 6 month rotation. Also, there is a munitions storage as well as a fuel storage limitation on Guam. As a continent, instead of an island, theoretically those limitations do not exist in Australia. One would think that a potential peer-to-peer engagement would require an abundant magazine as well as fuel tank. And there is that huge range. There will be any number of like-minded pacific rim countries that will want to train together - especially those flying the F-35. Down under will be a convenient place to meet.

I agree we'll see many more training rotations through Australia.
 
Well Australia has been buying almost every key US aircraft system so far such as Super Hornet, Growler, Lightning II, Triton and other US-developed systems like Wedgetail, MC-55A Peregrine and the Boeing Australia loyal wingman project. So buying the B-21 wouldn't be a stretch security-wise, but fiscally it might be too ambitious.

Interesting if Britain is in the fray too, the B-21 would seem rather ambitious as a Tornado replacement and I doubt the MoD would get funds for more than half-a-dozen.
 
Hood said:
Interesting if Britain is in the fray too, the B-21 would seem rather ambitious as a Tornado replacement and I doubt the MoD would get funds for more than half-a-dozen.
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If they buy the B-21, they'd need the F-35A to provide cover for it and they certainly won't get the funds for both. It's a nice thought though.
 
Hood said:
Well Australia has been buying almost every key US aircraft system so far such as Super Hornet, Growler, Lightning II, Triton and other US-developed systems like Wedgetail, MC-55A Peregrine and the Boeing Australia loyal wingman project. So buying the B-21 wouldn't be a stretch security-wise, but fiscally it might be too ambitious.

Interesting if Britain is in the fray too, the B-21 would seem rather ambitious as a Tornado replacement and I doubt the MoD would get funds for more than half-a-dozen.
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TBH highly unlikely ...more chance of UK purchasing the airworthy F-117A. Anyhow UK has been out of the strategic bomber mission since the early 80s. Doubt very much we could get back int hat game. Yes I know Tornado crews Been on exchange with 509th Flying the B-2A for near decade..

plus the USA haven’t exported likes of B-52, B-1 or B-2 so why would they want to export high tech state of the art stealth bomber? Even if it’s us their closest allies.

Say in theory , MoD purchased B-21....where could we base them? let’s look at former V Force bases .Only so many bases can handle strategic bombers...one is RAF Marham as they had Buffs deploy in 70s to early 80s.

Waddington is busy and has no space due ISTAR assets such as E-3D (and soon to be E-7A Wedgetail), then throw in the mix of R1 Shadow and Sentinel, RC-135 Rivet Joint.

Wyton..forget it....runway long gone, and main base is a spook base ...JARiC etc.

Wittering forget it... got UAS and flying training squadrons equipped with Grob Tutors.

Bsocombe Down has nice long runway, and plenty of space apart from QinetiQ Wmpire Test Pilots School and other test squadrons. Probably the odd black project,

Scampton ..home of the Red Arrows And on the closure list. Tbh the base is run down as I saw it two years ago during the one and only airshow held there.

cheers
 
RavenOne said:
TBH highly unlikely ...more chance of UK purchasing the airworthy F-117A. Anyhow UK has been out of the strategic bomber mission since the early 80s. Doubt very much we could get back int hat game. Yes I know Tornado crews Been on exchange with 509th Flying the B-2A for near decade..
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I don't seriously suggest it would be likely. The mission, support logistics and money just aren't there. The article Flyaway linked is a journalist's speculation that the UK could get involved.
 
RavenOne said:
Hood said:
Well Australia has been buying almost every key US aircraft system so far such as Super Hornet, Growler, Lightning II, Triton and other US-developed systems like Wedgetail, MC-55A Peregrine and the Boeing Australia loyal wingman project. So buying the B-21 wouldn't be a stretch security-wise, but fiscally it might be too ambitious.

Interesting if Britain is in the fray too, the B-21 would seem rather ambitious as a Tornado replacement and I doubt the MoD would get funds for more than half-a-dozen.
Click to expand...

TBH highly unlikely ...more chance of UK purchasing the airworthy F-117A. Anyhow UK has been out of the strategic bomber mission since the early 80s. Doubt very much we could get back int hat game. Yes I know Tornado crews Been on exchange with 509th Flying the B-2A for near decade..

plus the USA haven’t exported likes of B-52, B-1 or B-2 so why would they want to export high tech state of the art stealth bomber? Even if it’s us their closest allies.

Say in theory , MoD purchased B-21....where could we base them? let’s look at former V Force bases .Only so many bases can handle strategic bombers...one is RAF Marham as they had Buffs deploy in 70s to early 80s.

Waddington is busy and has no space due ISTAR assets such as E-3D (and soon to be E-7A Wedgetail), then throw in the mix of R1 Shadow and Sentinel, RC-135 Rivet Joint.

Wyton..forget it....runway long gone, and main base is a spook base ...JARiC etc.

Wittering forget it... got UAS and flying training squadrons equipped with Grob Tutors.

Bsocombe Down has nice long runway, and plenty of space apart from QinetiQ Wmpire Test Pilots School and other test squadrons. Probably the odd black project,

Scampton ..home of the Red Arrows And on the closure list. Tbh the base is run down as I saw it two years ago during the one and only airshow held there.

cheers
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You seem to forget that we are the only operator outside of the US of the Rivet Joint. So we do have form of operating unique aircraft in the UK. Which you would think wouldn’t be exported outside the US.
 
Flyaway said:
RavenOne said:
Hood said:
Well Australia has been buying almost every key US aircraft system so far such as Super Hornet, Growler, Lightning II, Triton and other US-developed systems like Wedgetail, MC-55A Peregrine and the Boeing Australia loyal wingman project. So buying the B-21 wouldn't be a stretch security-wise, but fiscally it might be too ambitious.

Interesting if Britain is in the fray too, the B-21 would seem rather ambitious as a Tornado replacement and I doubt the MoD would get funds for more than half-a-dozen.
Click to expand...

TBH highly unlikely ...more chance of UK purchasing the airworthy F-117A. Anyhow UK has been out of the strategic bomber mission since the early 80s. Doubt very much we could get back int hat game. Yes I know Tornado crews Been on exchange with 509th Flying the B-2A for near decade..

plus the USA haven’t exported likes of B-52, B-1 or B-2 so why would they want to export high tech state of the art stealth bomber? Even if it’s us their closest allies.

Say in theory , MoD purchased B-21....where could we base them? let’s look at former V Force bases .Only so many bases can handle strategic bombers...one is RAF Marham as they had Buffs deploy in 70s to early 80s.

Waddington is busy and has no space due ISTAR assets such as E-3D (and soon to be E-7A Wedgetail), then throw in the mix of R1 Shadow and Sentinel, RC-135 Rivet Joint.

Wyton..forget it....runway long gone, and main base is a spook base ...JARiC etc.

Wittering forget it... got UAS and flying training squadrons equipped with Grob Tutors.

Bsocombe Down has nice long runway, and plenty of space apart from QinetiQ Wmpire Test Pilots School and other test squadrons. Probably the odd black project,

Scampton ..home of the Red Arrows And on the closure list. Tbh the base is run down as I saw it two years ago during the one and only airshow held there.

cheers
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You seem to forget that we are the only operator outside of the US of the Rivet Joint. So we do have form of operating unique aircraft in the UK. Which you would think wouldn’t be exported outside the US.
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True, so how come we were not offered the B-2 Spirit? Now I did read somewhere and there is a famous book on unbuilt or what if Aviation projects where B-1B was offered to us. And there are several artists impressions of B-@B in RAF colours.

I also came across reports of Brit voices being heard over the ‘Box’ / Dreamland chatter with unknown airframes testing.

And as everyone knows .from the time two ETPS grads flew the 117A. One of said pair appeared in BBC1 Test Pilot series who flew Buccaneers and joined the Number 44 fixed wing course, (his preview was the Admirals Barge F/A-18B at Pax River) won the McKEnna Troohy...then got offered to fly F-117A In 85/86 few years before first RAF exchange Pilot did his 3 year tour.

likewise Reagan offered us the 117A then the Bush administration offered it again post Desert Storm But spot Cold War and the funding was not there.

Cheers
 
Seeing that the B-2 along with the B-52 are both counted in the New Start treaty how would the B-21 be treated especially if Australia and or the United Kingdom flew them? Would those two countries need to be included in the treaty? How would an opponent know in a time of crisis the nationally of a B-21 headed their way and whether or not it had nukes on board? The last heavy bomber the U.S. exported was the B-29. I don't see the B-21 being exported.
 
Mark S. said:
Seeing that the B-2 along with the B-52 are both counted in the New Start treaty how would the B-21 be treated especially if Australia and or the United Kingdom flew them? Would those two countries need to be included in the treaty? How would an opponent know in a time of crisis the nationally of a B-21 headed their way and whether or not it had nukes on board? The last heavy bomber the U.S. exported was the B-29. I don't see the B-21 being exported.
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I presume they’d export versions without the ‘nuclear wiring’ on the aircraft so to speak.
 
Mark S. said:
Seeing that the B-2 along with the B-52 are both counted in the New Start treaty how would the B-21 be treated especially if Australia and or the United Kingdom flew them? Would those two countries need to be included in the treaty? How would an opponent know in a time of crisis the nationally of a B-21 headed their way and whether or not it had nukes on board? The last heavy bomber the U.S. exported was the B-29. I don't see the B-21 being exported.
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The treaty would just be between the US and Russia, otherwise the US could ask for China to be included, which opens a whole new can of worms, and is probably the reason there won't be a treaty.
 
Forest Green said:
Mark S. said:
Seeing that the B-2 along with the B-52 are both counted in the New Start treaty how would the B-21 be treated especially if Australia and or the United Kingdom flew them? Would those two countries need to be included in the treaty? How would an opponent know in a time of crisis the nationally of a B-21 headed their way and whether or not it had nukes on board? The last heavy bomber the U.S. exported was the B-29. I don't see the B-21 being exported.
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The treaty would just be between the US and Russia, otherwise the US could ask for China to be included, which opens a whole new can of worms, and is probably the reason there won't be a treaty.
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I wouldn’t overly worry about the complex consequences of export B-21s.
IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
 
The US has two options on the B-21s and New START. This is assuming New START continues unchanged. This is also assuming the B-21 meets the definition of a "heavy bomber" and can't be simply ignored like the Tu-22Ms.

1) Declare it non-nuclear and have it excluded from the treaty, as was done with the B-1s and a number of B-52s.
2) Declare it as nuclear and countable under the treaty, replacing the nuclear capable B-2s and B-52s. Each B-21 would therefore count as one warhead.

Export version do not matter under the treaty, just as British Tridents are not accountable.
 
When Dutch offered the F-117 to England the US had already advanced stealth technology beyond flat plates. The raider will be the epitome of US stealth technology and likely have technology in it we don't even know exists. I don't foresee the USA offering that for sale even to close allies like Australia or England and risk loosing that technology to anyone under any circumstances
 
I do not see the UK ever having the finances to run the things unless there is a heavy duty rubber band in the schedule. With all the other items on the to acquire/buy/engineer where is the money? Some time ago I know but Chieftain was restricted on track milage we were then restricted on how long the engines could run and finally on engine revolutions. Having bought two bath toys, yes big bath toys, we are going to have to very carefully dole out money for programs. Whats that, you need new tyres for the staff car? Get real, run it on the rims or use Challie 2 wheels.......
 

B-21 Program Hits Schedule Pressure Even On ‘Conventional Trajectory’ | Aviation Week Network

America’s secretive new bomber has entered final assembly four years after contract award.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com
"As the first B-21 enters final assembly in Palmdale, California, the Northrop Grumman-led program is on track to hit a first-flight target in two years, although the first signs of schedule pressure have appeared. Most of the details of the U.S. Air Force’s newest stealth bomber remain a tightly guarded secret, but those facts released show the program is following a conventional trajectory despite being managed by an organization with the word “rapid” in its ... "
 
zebra159357 said:

B-21 Program Hits Schedule Pressure Even On ‘Conventional Trajectory’ | Aviation Week Network

America’s secretive new bomber has entered final assembly four years after contract award.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com
"As the first B-21 enters final assembly in Palmdale, California, the Northrop Grumman-led program is on track to hit a first-flight target in two years, although the first signs of schedule pressure have appeared. Most of the details of the U.S. Air Force’s newest stealth bomber remain a tightly guarded secret, but those facts released show the program is following a conventional trajectory despite being managed by an organization with the word “rapid” in its ... "
Click to expand...

Good news that the first prototype B-21 has entered final assembly at Palmdale. :cool:
 
FighterJock said:
zebra159357 said:

B-21 Program Hits Schedule Pressure Even On ‘Conventional Trajectory’ | Aviation Week Network

America’s secretive new bomber has entered final assembly four years after contract award.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com
"As the first B-21 enters final assembly in Palmdale, California, the Northrop Grumman-led program is on track to hit a first-flight target in two years, although the first signs of schedule pressure have appeared. Most of the details of the U.S. Air Force’s newest stealth bomber remain a tightly guarded secret, but those facts released show the program is following a conventional trajectory despite being managed by an organization with the word “rapid” in its ... "
Click to expand...

Good news that the first prototype B-21 has entered final assembly at Palmdale. :cool:
Click to expand...

Don't people think we are building more than 1 at this time?
 

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