Northrop ATOP (Advanced Technology Observation Platform)

[flateric]

I would be very obliged if intelligent people won't continue growing a conflict from a scratch.
Both of you are valuable for forum. Please, I've tired so much of such things at Russian aerospace forums.

All that have no relationship to original topic's subject.

Thank you.

 

[Orionblamblam]

As a person who has been following programs such as this for years, it really pains me to say this, but I'm starting to wonder if all of our curiosity and research is in vain. Since the Internet came to prominence, I really can't think of a single significant, verifiable project that has leaked or surfaced.

Keep in mind, there may well not *be* any secret, flown aircraft out there. There aerospace industry is not as it once was. While I'd love to believe that the USAF is building a fleet of X-302's and a few X-303 carriers out in some subterranean desert facility. the likelihood is that there are very, very few "projects" that have been built in the last 20 years.

I'd love it to be true that the real reason for the dearth of new aircraft and spiffy new technologies is because the worlds msot advanced and competant government have made shocking strides, and are keeping them secret until the world's population can be educated to the point where they can accept the fundamentally new universe that these machines open up. But the reality is that the dearth of new aircraft is much more likely due to there simply not being any new aircraft.

 

[CFE]

I'm inclined to believe that any "black" aircraft that have been built since SENIOR TREND have been contractor-funded prototypes like Bird of Prey, rather than USAF-funded programs that resulted in a significant number of airframes. In hindsight, the fact that so many F-117's were built and flying in secret for so many years is truly remarkable.

The "Bird of Prey" example tells us a lot about the nature of prototyping during the 1990's through the present. One was built, its lessons were applied to programs like the X-45, and it was declassified a few years after its white-world successor programs were announced.

 

[sublight]

...I'm hoping that as technology advances, it will be no longer necessary to conceal the existence of many of these legacy projects. As time goes on, many of the brilliant engineers who developed these amazing projects are starting to pass on. It would be a shame if we were not able to recognize their work while they are still here.

I think the primary reason they dont declassify is accountability for where the money went. The state of the economy and growing deficit probably guarantees that we'll have to wait additional decades for a lot of toys to come out of hiding. Its sad because the Chinese and Russians probably know everything about every toy parked at groom and Edwards, and all we get are scraps of info gleamed from purported "UFO" sightings....

I'll probably die of old age before they declassify my beloved stealth blimp....

 

[sublight]

Keep in mind, there may well not *be* any secret, flown aircraft out there.
[/quote]

There has to be at least one. We have the planets most spectacularly huge defense budget, and satellites certainly cant cover all the bases.

 

[SOC]

He only had a secret level clearance and much of the documentation that he distributed was not classified, but NOFORN).

NOFORN is a caveat, not a classification. A document would be classified SECRET//NOFORN, for example, implying that it is SECRET-level material that has been determined to be sensitive enough to keep from foreign agencies. Material won't be NOFORN without being classified at least CONFIDENTIAL. So yes, if he was providing NOFORN data, it was most certainly classified.

 

[Orionblamblam]

There has to be at least one.

No, there doesn't.

We have the planets most spectacularly huge defense budget, and satellites certainly cant cover all the bases.

While both are true, neither even implies, let alone proves, that there's anything other than what's publicly known. I would not be surprised to find out that there's *something* else flying around. I would not be surprised to find out there's *nothing* else flying around. I'd be surprised if there were *two* publicly unknown US aircraft. I'd be stunned if there were three.

From an aerospace technology development standpoint, the US - and indeed pretty much the whole world - peaked in the 1960's. With the growth of the anti-nuclear movement, the anti-SST movement, the anti-military movement, Greenpeace, "progressives," lawsuit lottos and all the rest, coupled with the fact that there are some good physics based reasons why higher/faster/farther than what we had in the sixties is impractical, truly new and innovative aerospace development has simply ended.

The US is also down to a grand total of two real aircraft developers, LockMart and Boeing. Soon enough i expect those two to join up, and if the Obama regime is successful in nationalizing the banking and auto industries - and there doesn't seem to be much stopping them - then expect to see a BAe-style "American National Aircraft Corporation" at some point, which will by government fiat devour all US aerospace manufactureres in much the same way that BAe absorbed the British aviation industry. And then you can expect the ANAC to have as glittering an advanced manned aircraft product line as BAe has.

 

[flateric]

just curious, how NOFORN refers with ITAR? NOFORN is something much worse?

 

[SOC]

Easy, they don't get NOFORN data. They'll get REL TO, or releasable to, data, caveated to whatever nation or group (such as REL TO GBR, or REL TO NATO) is applicable.

 

[Stargazer]

I certainly do not want to get anyone annoyed or to get into endless polemics...

Sorry for the digression... I've edited this post and those who wish to read on and react are invited to do so here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7146.0.html

 

[flateric]

returning to the topic's subject, does anyone wonder as I do, why ATOP, Deuce Duke replacement, was so damn classified project?

 

[Mr London 24/7]

Hello all, am a long time lurker but just can't resist posting after the great and intriguing find of ATOP apparently on Flickr (well done that man):

Slightly devils advocate perhaps, but for me it also doesn't quite add up until (or if) some more photos or official documents further describing ATOP are released. And nothing more than this and the Patches is apparent on the Web today.

Some of the photo's are clearly altered or PS'd in some fashion (backgrounds blurred), one shows an apparent carriage of Sidewinders on the wingtips?, with other weapons under the wings. Outwardly there doesn't appear to be much Advanced Technology involved other than FSW. No sensor turret or other apparent suite is shown on these models so there doesn't appear to be much Observation either. A mixed bag of Engineers working on their own time is described on Flickr yet the Patch appears to suggest this effort has come under Northrop and implies much more secrecy than appears to have been neccessary for this vehicle. First flight on the patch seems too late from the genesis of the suggested idea from the Vietnam era and the late 70's early 80's.....?

 

[The_Dealer]

I'm going to side with the last post and be a little (well, very) skeptical when it comes to this as being the ATOP. It's almost as if they were joking around, creating the one patch to look like the Klingon BOP, then the patches actually made it out of the black world and they scrambled to come up with some type of cover (or the cover was already thought of way back when). FSW, single engine pusher to be an advanced "observation platform" to replace the already obsolete O2a... what?? And still highly-classified to boot (oh... except for these "classified" pictures that someone just happens to have sitting around.. and apparently chase planes were brought up to photograph this historic moment... right).

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that there is an 074949 that did fly in 1990... but that FSW model isn't it!

 

[fightingirish]

Deepbluehorizon Blog - A plea from Area 51

 

[Mat Parry]

Deepbluehorizon Blog - A plea from Area 51

I think the last line of text is the most telling (bolding mine)... "Story (C) Steve Douglass".

 

[Stargazer]

Deepbluehorizon Blog - A plea from Area 51

I think the last line of text is the most telling (bolding mine)... "Story (C) Steve Douglass".

In journalistic terms, the word "story" is a bit like "paper"... it can describe an article. It doesn't necessarily mean the text is a work of imagination.

 

[Mr London 24/7]

Ah, So many stories....
See Comments posted by an alleged Chris (Doles) - (atophome photos were signed with 'H.G Doles')...:

My family built the ATOP when I was in high school. It is not a black project, just a family project. The silver aircraft is a balsa wood mockup of the aircraft. JTV stands for Jetison Test Vechile. We attached the model of the ATOP to our Cessana 150 by a bomb rack on the end of the wing. The JTV was to prove the concept that the aircraft was stable in flight under a free fall. The aircraft is in my fathers shop in Chelsea, Oklahoma. We have video of the test flights and the jetison of the ATOP. I also have a picture of everyone that worked on the project. Even the kids at Mojave high school watched us walk around with our flight jackets with the project patches. Just want to set the record straight.

(http://miragemen.wordpress.com/2010/06/14/atop-the-heights-of-an-aviation-mystery/)

But no convincing follow up!

 

[Mat Parry]

In journalistic terms, the word "story" is a bit like "paper"... it can describe an article. It doesn't necessarily mean the text is a work of imagination.

Point taken, you are correct.

On re-reading my post it does sound as though I am accusing the author of making up a story and passing it off as factual, this was not my intention and I apologize if this is how it has been taken.

The author has written a fictional book related to these kind of topics and has previously posted excerpts from the same book in his blog. My assumption (which appears to be wrong) was that this was also an excerpt from some future work.

 

[Gridlock]

Anyone looking to photoshop the next Blackstar could do well to learn from Steve's actual holy-shit-what-is-that photos, from this posting and others.

He should run training courses for the PLA's forum propaganda outfit.

 

[dark sidius]

We don't know about these photo, but what do you think they do with 17billions dollars /year black budget? Surely new kind of plane, and the article of Steve Douglas, is very interesting.

 

[Mr London 24/7]

Another one bites the dust:

Message posted by Steve Douglass on January 17, 2013 at 20:03:05 PST:

A follow up on my article,

I communicated with my sources and i did indeed confuse two separate programs (and a acronym) that I took to be ATOP - which iwasn't . All the ATOP information has been redacted from the article.

Unfortunately that makes the entire article suspect and basically not worth the text it was written in. I apologize for the inaccuracies and bad info - which I totally take responsibility for.

As a result the only part of the story I can confirm is my sighting at Holloman AFB - and the photos I took are real images. If anyone want's to analyze the raw images e-mail me and I'll post you a link at a later date.

On a personal note - this story has caused a minor s***t storm in certain circles and I'm just now beginning to pick up the pieces and feel the repercussions. The idea is since part of the article was wrong - all of it must be.

More later.

Special thanks to Pete Merlin for setting me straight.

(http://www.dreamlandresort.com/forum/messages/40956.html)

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Peter Merlin's post:

The ATOP Project was a concept for a manned or unmanned aircraft called the Advanced Technology Observation Platform. It was designed by a group of Vietnam veterans to have a similar role to the OV-10 Bronco. The aircraft needed to be lightweight with STOL capabilities for light air-support missions, reconnaissance, and surveillance. The airframe was to be approximately 25 feet long and 7 feet tall with a 32-foot wingspan. The powerplants were to be 1,600hp PT-6 twin-paks. The first mockup was assembled in 1978. A 7-foot-span drop model was used to test the jettison system on the ground prior to live carry.

The first drop test of JTV-1 took place north of California City Airport on 28 October 1990. Cessna 150J (N51305) served as the mothership. The test article was to have floated to the ground, but instead made a hard landing after the recovery chute failed to deploy. ATOP JTV-2 was tested at China Lake Naval Weapons Center in late 1991. The ATOP test team consisted of USAF, Boeing, NASA, Lockheed, and Northrop personnel working pretty much on their own time.

 

[eclipse1996gsx]

Here's the family picture. My dad had the patchs made to seem top secret, because they looked cool. The other reason was Boeing had the rights over the aircraft before they released it back to my dad, then the second patch came out. For your info on 2 JTV, it's not true. There was no test drop around China Lake. JTV 1, was a bomb to test the free fall from our Cessna 150, released just north of California City airport. JTV 2, was the ATOP. and yes, the plane crashed just north of California City airport, due to a malfunction with the recovery chute. I guess I should upload the video on youtube.

 

[eclipse1996gsx]

Here's a picture of the test flight crew for the ATOP.

 

[eclipse1996gsx]

The ATOP now hangs at our dad's shop in Chelsea, Oklahoma.

 

[Stargazer]

Thank you very much for the pics and info, eclipse1996gsx!

 

[Ninja]

So does the ATOP even count as an black aircraft? No official info, no official records of it, black patch made, yet it flew out in the open and has plenty of images?

 

[Whisperstream]

So does the ATOP even count as an black aircraft? No official info, no official records of it, black patch made, yet it flew out in the open and has plenty of images?

I would have to say, no, it does not count as a "back" aircraft. Not every cool-looking patch is for something interesting. Take Project NINJA, for example.

Project NINJA (Netcentric Intelligence, Jamming and Attack) used a miniature air-launched decoy (MALD) airframe equipped with the Netted Element Weapon Service (NEWS) and Netted Effects (NetFx) software. NINJA was designed to be a launch-and-leave weapon capable of operating within a net-centric environment. It apparently underwent developmental testing prior to 2008. There was a full-up field demonstration scheduled for July 2008, but I don't know if that took place. The field demo was supposed to show how multiple users could simultaneously benefit from the NINJA's sensor capabilities.

According to the concept of operations, requests from users would come from an experimental Joint Air Operations Center (JAOC-X). These requests and the responses generated would be directly exchanged between the NINJA weapon and the JAOC-X or posted to an intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) network by an airborne Distributed Common Ground System Integrated Backbone (DIB). Data posted to the ISR network would be available to all authorized users. Scenario parameters would allow users varying amounts of ad hoc NINJA re-tasking capability in near-real time to response to changing battlespace conditions.

 

[Ninja]

I would have to say, no, it does not count as a "back" aircraft. Not every cool-looking patch is for something interesting. Take Project NINJA, for example.

Project NINJA (Netcentric Intelligence, Jamming and Attack) used a miniature air-launched decoy (MALD) airframe equipped with the Netted Element Weapon Service (NEWS) and Netted Effects (NetFx) software. NINJA was designed to be a launch-and-leave weapon capable of operating within a net-centric environment. It apparently underwent developmental testing prior to 2008. There was a full-up field demonstration scheduled for July 2008, but I don't know if that took place. The field demo was supposed to show how multiple users could simultaneously benefit from the NINJA's sensor capabilities.

According to the concept of operations, requests from users would come from an experimental Joint Air Operations Center (JAOC-X). These requests and the responses generated would be directly exchanged between the NINJA weapon and the JAOC-X or posted to an intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) network by an airborne Distributed Common Ground System Integrated Backbone (DIB). Data posted to the ISR network would be available to all authorized users. Scenario parameters would allow users varying amounts of ad hoc NINJA re-tasking capability in near-real time to response to changing battlespace conditions.

Was project NINJA secret though? Im thinking about contacting a Public Relations person at NG to see if I can get any clear pics of the patch/symbol.

 

[Whisperstream]

Was project NINJA secret though? Im thinking about contacting a Public Relations person at NG to see if I can get any clear pics of the patch/symbol.

Project NINJA was discussed in open literature, so it wasn't secret. A lot of the information may be proprietary, however. I don't believe there is anything hidden within the patch emblem artwork. It's just a stylized Japanese ninja warrior.

 

[Scott Kenny]

just curious, how NOFORN refers with ITAR? NOFORN is something much worse?

Old question, but NOFORN means exactly that. NO FOReign Nationals.

ITAR is a set of laws (and taxes!) about exporting various items. Even if you don't export a single item on the list, if you make or sell them you need to file ITAR paperwork annually and pay something like $6k/yr in taxes.**

If something is NOFORN and also on the ITAR list (the ITAR list is pretty generic, mind you, it says things like "Small Arms and Ammunition" as a general category), that item still cannot be exported without a specific change in classification. It would need to go to something like NOFORN - RELTO NATO, that is "Nor Foreign Nationals, except releasable to NATO with specific permission" to be allowed to be exported. And that change in classification would have to be decided by whatever agency declared the item NOFORN in the first place, which usually takes months or years.

** Uncle Sam always has to get his cut. If you are making money from illegal activities, you still need to claim that on your income taxes. Growing pot? Write that income as "Cash agricultural business" and the IRS doesn't care, they won't report you to the DEA. Prostitute? Write that income as "Cash personal services" and the IRS won't report you to the local PD. As long as you're claiming the income, the IRS considers you a law-abiding individual and won't hassle you any more than any other individual. They may still audit you, of course, but that's why you hire an accountant or other paid tax preparer.