Northrop A-9 AX Design Evolution

[apparition13]

From the pdf:



I thought the YA-10 had superior turn performance, but apparently not. The YA-9 seems to have been a better aircraft in terms of performance. The A-10 decision seems to have been based on a belief it was more survivable, and on the low wing making reloading easier and allowing for wider spacing between pylons (since the A-10 had fuselage pylons) which made carrying munitions easier.

 

[jsport]

You see nothing on the right............

Northrup's turbo pusher had it right even in the high intensity european battlespace. CAS would better be termed CABombing. Support needs to survive ,but more importantly, break phyiscally and or phychologically a fromtline. Large numbers of stores are necessary as is prop enabled endurance. Likewise in a distrubuted environment, range and large volumns are needed for multple intensive engagments, and even w/ the use of mini-muntions enhanced range and payload matter.

 

[robunos]

he A-10 decision seems to have been based on a belief it was more survivable, and on the low wing making reloading easier and allowing for wider spacing between pylons (since the A-10 had fuselage pylons) which made carrying munitions easier.

Don't forget the industrial angle, IIRC Fairchild needed the work . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[DWG]

Northrup's turbo pusher had it right even in the high intensity european battlespace. CAS would better be termed CABombing. Support needs to survive ,but more importantly, break phyiscally and or phychologically a fromtline. Large numbers of stores are necessary as is prop enabled endurance. Likewise in a distrubuted environment, range and large volumns are needed for multple intensive engagments, and even w/ the use of mini-muntions enhanced range and payload matter.

The primary point of CAS in a WWIII context would have been not to breach a front line, but to sufficiently disrupt Russian attacks they didn't breach ours. The primary weapons for that would have been a combination of Maverick and cluster bombs. A 2 hour mission endurance was probably about right given the pilots would be flying multiple missions a day for weeks on end.

 

[RipSteakface]

Allyson HAD a giant collection, but sold a lot of it. Still has quite a few however.

Ahh, I see. It's still very much something I find aspirational haha.

 

[jsport]

Northrup's turbo pusher had it right even in the high intensity european battlespace. CAS would better be termed CABombing. Support needs to survive ,but more importantly, break phyiscally and or phychologically a fromtline. Large numbers of stores are necessary as is prop enabled endurance. Likewise in a distrubuted environment, range and large volumns are needed for multple intensive engagments, and even w/ the use of mini-muntions enhanced range and payload matter.

The primary point of CAS in a WWIII context would have been not to breach a front line, but to sufficiently disrupt Russian attacks they didn't breach ours. The primary weapons for that would have been a combination of Maverick and cluster bombs. A 2 hour mission endurance was probably about right given the pilots would be flying multiple missions a day for weeks on end.

Carriyng enough Mavericks to 'bomb-stop' the WP blitzkrieg and 'then' 'bomb-rush' WP follow-on echelons to enable your own Blitzkrieg would seem to be how Patton would have fought the WWIII.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Good Day All -

Last week I went to see Gerald Balzer and spend the day with him and of course, peruse the collection and get some scanning done. For some reason, I had never scanned the Northrop A-9 folder and lo and behold, the attached drawings of AX concepts were in the folder. To me, they all look a wee bit too lean for what the AX became with the A-9 and A-10 so possibly an earlier look at what if similar to some of the other turboprop designs, especially the V-tail designs, in this thread and others. Have not figure out yet the design nomenclature yet but haven't dwelled on it either...

Cannot thank Gerald enough for saving all these goodies - always in awe at what he has collected and being able to view and scan these gems.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Another from the Gerald Balzer Collection, the A-9 is SEA Camo....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Yet another from the Gerald Balzer Collection, a better copy of what Pioneer posted back in #62.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[AeroFranz]

Nice. As i'm looking at this thread and the one about the contenders, i can't help but wonder how Northrop was thinking of dealing with gun gas ingestion. It was a problem for the Warthog, and you can claim that the engines are at least somewhat more shielded...

 

[GTX]

i can't help but wonder how Northrop was thinking of dealing with gun gas ingestion.

Potentially they hadn't considered it as an issue in design...

 

[AeroFranz]

I guess that may well be... Even the A-10 prototypes experimented with baffles/deflectors and other devices, IIRC.

 

[apparition13]

Nice. As i'm looking at this thread and the one about the contenders, i can't help but wonder how Northrop was thinking of dealing with gun gas ingestion. It was a problem for the Warthog, and you can claim that the engines are at least somewhat more shielded...

The Il-40 solution could work.

 

[Pioneer]

Yet another from the Gerald Balzer Collection, a better copy of what Pioneer posted back in #62.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

Thanks Mark Nankivil

Regards
Pioneer

 

[allysonca]

You see nothing on the right............

By the way, on the Northrop AX pusher I had 4, one a large in 1/20th scale (I'll look for a picture), and the one shown in the smaller 1/40th. I also had (2) 1/40th blanks - one of which had a completely different intake system on the upper fuselage. I am in the process of finishing one of the blanks that I kept when I sold the collection and will post pictures when done.

 

[apparition13]

By the way, on the Northrop AX pusher I had 4, one a large in 1/20th scale (I'll look for a picture), and the one shown in the smaller 1/40th. I also had (2) 1/40th blanks - one of which had a completely different intake system on the upper fuselage. I am in the process of finishing one of the blanks that I kept when I sold the collection and will post pictures when done.

In my ideal world the A2D gets a working engine and becomes a successful COIN and CAS aircraft in Vietnam, with the N-308 replacing it in the 70s, supplementing the A-10 in the lower threat environment. I think those would have sold to countries with insurgency concerns.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Good Day All -

Last week I went to see Gerald Balzer and spend the day with him and of course, peruse the collection and get some scanning done. For some reason, I had never scanned the Northrop A-9 folder and lo and behold, the attached drawings of AX concepts were in the folder. To me, they all look a wee bit too lean for what the AX became with the A-9 and A-10 so possibly an earlier look at what if similar to some of the other turboprop designs, especially the V-tail designs, in this thread and others. Have not figure out yet the design nomenclature yet but haven't dwelled on it either...

Cannot thank Gerald enough for saving all these goodies - always in awe at what he has collected and being able to view and scan these gems.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

Mark, I missed these somehow. Really interesting.

The designs are broken into:

STP - Single Turboprop

• STP-2
• STP-3

TTP - Twin Turboprop

• STP-1A
• STP-2 (obsolete)
• STP-2
• STP-3
• STP-4
• STP-5
• STP-6
• STP-8

STF - Single Turbofan

• STF-1
• STF-2
• STF-4

TTF - Twin Turbofan

• TTF-2
• TTF-3
• TTF-4
• TTF-5
• TTF-6

TCF - Twin ? fan

• TCF-1
• TCF-2

The TCF designs seem to have small turbojets driving separate gas driven fans?




Also - there's some A-9 ancestry here:

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Ron Downey has posted A-9 Technical Proposal and Source Selection documents on his blog.

Northrop A-9 Technical Proposal

A copy of the Northrop A-9 Technical Proposal. Dated 10 October 1972. Lot’s of good A-9 info here! Download here or here or here (23.4...

aviationarchives.blogspot.com

Northrop A-9 Source Selection Report

A copy of the Northrop A-9 Source Selection Competition Report, NB 72-325. Dated 20 December 1972. Download here or here or here (24.4...

aviationarchives.blogspot.com

From the Source Selection Report, a comparison of the proposed production configuration to the prototype.


And this 2 seat version:

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

• A-9 Attack Aircraft [Air Force AX Close Support Aircraft], 1967-1973, n.d.
• Artist’s Rendering, n.d.
• Characteristics and Specifications, n.d.
• General Arrangement and Performance Summary, Northrop Corporation, n.d.
• S-1 Turbo-Pusher Flight Model, n.d.
• Clippings, 1970-1973, n.d.
• External Publications, 1970-1973, n.d.
• Northrop Publication, 1972, June
• Corporate Announcement, Northrop Corporation, 1970, Dec. 18
• Fact Sheets, n.d.
• Northrop Corporation, n.d.
• United States Air Force (USAF), n.d.
• List, [Brochures, 1968-1971], n.d.
• Manual, “A-9A Test Force: Pilots Briefing Notes” [Handbook for A-9A Test Force Personnel], L.A. Nelson, Northrop Corporation, Aircraft Division, NB-72-117, 1972, May
• Memoranda, 1970, 1972-1973
• Northrop Corporation, Northrop Corporation and United States Air Force, Basic Agreements-Public Information, 1970, Dec. 15
• Northrop Corporation, Aircraft Division, 1972-1973
• T.R. Hannelly to D.J. Deering, A-9 Source Selection Debriefing-Wednesday, 7 February 1973, ASD, 1972, Feb. 12
• J.D. Matthews to A-9 Distribution List B, A-9 Proposal Contents, 1972, Sept. 15
• T.R. Hannelly to D.J. Deering, Fly-Before-Buy: 20/20 Hindsight, 1973, Mar. 8
• Newsletter, Lycorama, Avco Lycoming Division, Vol. 15, No. 11, 1971, Jan.
• Presentation Materials, Northrop Corporation
• “A-9A Aircraft: Photographs, Renderings, Schematics by Categories,” n.d.
• A-9A Aircraft (Photographs and Renderings); General Arrangement; Concept, Stores; Avionics; Engines; Guns/Ammunition; Armor; Fuel; Hydraulics; Flight Controls; Accessibility; Electrical; Design; Wing; Elevators; Aileron; Flaps; Fuselage; Empennage; Rudder; Landing Gear; Prototype System; Gearbox; Flight Test; Speedbrakes; Protection—Fire and Fuel, Explosion, and Propulsion; Vulnerability and Battle Damage; Age; Maintenance; Manufacturing; Engineering/Manufacturing; Simulators; Tests; Oxygen Regulator, n.d.
• “A-9 Source Selection Advisory Council Briefing,” NB-72-325, 1972, Dec. 20
• “Graphics Plan for A-9 Acquisition Proposal,” ca. 1972
• Press Releases, 1970-1971, n.d.
• Department of Defense, 1970, Aug. 10
• Northrop Corporation, 1970-1971, n.d.
• Program, Visitors Activities, A-X Program Meeting, A-X
• SPO/AFPRO/Northrop, 1971, Jan. 12
• Proposals, 1967, 1972, n.d.
• Acquisition Proposal, Lists
• “A-9 Quick Security Guide,” 1972, June 8 [Assignments], 1972, July 17
• “Assumptions for Reduced Graphics Cost Estimate for A-9 Acquisition Proposal,” Attachment 2, NB-72-320, Drafts, 1972, Mar. 15
• “Questions Requiring Answers for Graphics Cost Estimate of A-9 Acquisition Proposal,” n.d.
• “Northrop Proposal for a Specialized Close Support Aircraft Planning Study,” Vol. I: Technical Proposal, Richard E. Horner, Northrop Corporation, Aeronautical Systems Division, NB-67-72, In Response to RFP No. F33657-67-P-0994, 1967, Apr.
• Technical Proposal, “A-9 Full Scale Development and Production Phase Proposal,” Vol. II, Section I: Test, Technical Summary, NOR-72-200, pages 4-18; 20; i; I-8, 1972, Oct. 10 [partial photocopy]
• Reports, Northrop Corporation, Aircraft Division, 1972
• “Source Selection Plan: A-X Close Support Aircraft” (Abridged Draft), 1972, Jan. 4
• Paper, “A-X Full Scale Development: Source Selection Evaluation Criteria” attached
• “Historical Review of A-9 FSD and Production Phase Proposal Effort,” Harry A. Lauder, NB-71-320, 1972, Dec.
• “Qualities of the A-9 Airplane,” 1972, Dec.

Huntington Library - Northrop Corporate Papers

https://cdn.calisphere.org/data/13030/m5/c8kw5mm5/files/Northrop-FullSeries2.pdf

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Northrop AX artwork.

First is pretty well known. It can be seen in glorious colour in Tony Chong's "Flying Wings and Radical Things", page 181 along with a 3 view.



This seems smaller, earlier and very similar to the early studies posted by Mark from the Gerald Balzer collection.



Source: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...d-a-10-thunderbolt-ii.2615/page-5#post-524726

 

[Dynoman]

First flight of the YA-9

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQsnuM-lZKw

 

[GTX]

And what if may have looked like in service:

I believe this is from Project Terminated: Famous Military Aircraft Cancellations of the Cold War and What Might Have Been
by Erik Simonsen

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

And what if may have looked like in service:

I believe this is from Project Terminated: Famous Military Aircraft Cancellations of the Cold War and What Might Have Been
by Erik Simonsen

Sadly this model is based on the prototype not the proposed production version (see drawings above).

 

[GTX]

True, though it still does give people an idea of how it might have looked in operational service.

 

[SatinWings]

I was fortunate to come across one version of the originals of the photo posted earlier in this thread while on my travels (though sadly I failed to note from which box this was, so no scans of it in the near future).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Did a quick edit. I can't find the earlier version in this topic you are referring to?

 

[Dynoman]

Northrop's S-1 Sierra Sue and the AX program for the early development of the A-9

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnjMztfyCN0

 

[SatinWings]

Did a quick edit. I can't find the earlier version in this topic you are referring to?

Ah whoops, forgive me. Was relying on faulty memory there- the earlier, smaller photo was actually of the turboprop pusher design.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Yes - its similar art and clearly connects the pusher design with the A-9. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Radium]

Interesting video :

As requested, there is some firing footage of YA-9.

Radium

 

[ScrutorAudax]

Source: https://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/2017/06/northrop-9a-photos.html?m=1

 

[ScrutorAudax]

Source: https://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/2017/06/northrop-9a-photos.html?m=1

 

[ScrutorAudax]

Source:

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Sorry, but please don't do this kind of post.

It looks like you went around the internet indescriminately downloading every picture of an A-9 you could find, then posted here without any source attribution. Several of the pictures are built model kits (from https://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal14/13501-13600/gal13514-A9A-Attard/00.shtm) or have copyright notices on them. Bill Spidle's photos were posted before in this topic in 2009 by me (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/northrop-a-9-ax-design-evolution.32497/#post-69694) with a few examples and a link to his album page. This is polite behaviour and helpful if anyone wanted to get permission to use the photos for example.

The least you could do is provide links to where the images came from. This would also help users tell the real photos from the fakes.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Nice. As i'm looking at this thread and the one about the contenders, i can't help but wonder how Northrop was thinking of dealing with gun gas ingestion. It was a problem for the Warthog, and you can claim that the engines are at least somewhat more shielded...

Maybe just do it the easy way and turn the ignitors on when the trigger is pulled, and leave them on for 1sec after the trigger is released? It's what they ended up doing with the Warthog.

Though at that point in design and testing I doubt it was something they thought about.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Sorry, but please don't do this kind of post.

It looks like you went around the internet indescriminately downloading every picture of an A-9 you could find, then posted here without any source attribution. Several of the pictures are built model kits (from https://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal14/13501-13600/gal13514-A9A-Attard/00.shtm) or have copyright notices on them. Bill Spidle's photos were posted before in this topic in 2009 by me (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/northrop-a-9-ax-design-evolution.32497/#post-69694) with a few examples and a link to his album page. This is polite behaviour and helpful if anyone wanted to get permission to use the photos for example.

The least you could do is provide links to where the images came from. This would also help users tell the real photos from the fakes.

I removed the photos with clear copyright notices.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Some relevant reports.

AD-507 437 NORTHROP CORPHAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A- X) . Volume VI. V/STOL Studies. (U). Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR- 67-124-Vol-6
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67-C- 1500

AD- 507 438 NORTHROP CORPHAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A-X). Volume VII. Study Brief. (U). Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR- 67-124-Vol-7
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67-C- 1500

AD-507 456 NORTHROP CORP HAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV
United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A-X). Volume V- 13. Appendix V-D-5. Historical Data. Appendix V-D-6. Airfield Requirements. Appendix V- D-9. Trajectory Optimization Program. Appendix V-D- 12. Review of Tactical Application of Close Air Support. (U). Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR- 67-124- Vol- 5
13 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67-C- 1500

AD-507 457 NORTHROP CORPHAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A-X). Volume V- 14. Appendix V-E- 1. Weapons Effectiveness.(U). Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR- 67-124- Vol- 5-14
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67- C- 1500

AD-507 458 NORTHROP CORPHAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon
System Study (A- X). Volume V- 15. Appendixes V-E- 2 through V- E-6 and V- E-9
through V-E-12. (U). Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR- 67-124-Vol- 5-15
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67- C- 1500

AD- 507 459 NORTHROP CORPHAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A-X). Volume V- 16. Appendix V-F- 1 . Vulnerability Analysis.
(U) Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR- 67-124- Vol- 5-16
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67-C- 1500

AD- 507 461 NORTHROP CORP HAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A-X) . Volume V- 18. Appendixes V- F-3, V- F- 5, V- F-7, V- F-9 and V-F-10. (U) Final rept.
Rept. no . NOR- 67-124- Vol- 5-18
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67- C- 1500

NORTHROP CORP HAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A-X). Volume V- 21. Appendix V-C-3. Propulsion Analysis. (U) Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR-67-124- Vol- 5-21
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67- C- 1500

AD-507 502 NORTHROP CORP HAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A-X). Volume V-4. Appendix V-A-11. Avionics Systems for the A-X Program. (U) Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR- 67-124- Vol- 5-4
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67- C- 1500

AD- 507 503S NORTHROP CORP HAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A-X). Volume V-5. Appendix V-A- 12. A-X Close Support Aircraft Avionics Study. (U). Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR- 67-124-Vol- 5-5- App-12
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67- C- 1500

AD- 507 504 NORTHROP CORPHAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIVUnited States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A- X). Volume V-7. (U)Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR- 67-124- Vol- 5-7
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67-C- 1500

AD-507 505 NORTHROP CORP HAWTHORNE CALIF NORAIR DIV United States Air Force Specialized Close Air Support Aircraft Weapon System Study (A-X). Volume V- 12. Appendix V-D- 1. Physical Environment. Appendix V-D- 2. Map Exercises. Appendix V-D-4. Target-Mission Occurrence Rates. (U) Final rept.
Rept. no. NOR- 67-124- Vol- 5-12
1 Sep 67
Contract F33657-67-C- 1500

 

[jackssmirkingrevenge]

Footage of the Acme S-1 Sierra in flight

https://imgur.com/SQLI8HT

 

[XtraSaltee]

"As sweet as a Warthog"

 

[XtraSaltee]

Hot on the heels after Heli Expo 2020 in Anaheim, myself and friend/colleague went on road trip and ended up at March ARB museum. Tenner to pay to get in and to explore the exhibits so here are my photos of the YA-9.

CheersView attachment 652321View attachment 652322View attachment 652323View attachment 652325View attachment 652324

Very interesting how the design is like a P-59, A-10, Su-25 vibes