North Korea Air Force aircraft

I'm sorry. My 30+yrs involved with military aircraft including the maintenance and operation of them and their associated subsystems, including especially things such as engines obviously count for nothing against your so-called "logic". Now excuse me while I go laugh myself silly.
 
I don't know if Russia still have Su-25s in reserve?

Another Su-25 regiment for North Korea?
 
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ValiantHeart said:
I don't know if Russia still have Su-25s in reserve?
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I'd be surprised if they didn't have a couple hundred or so in mothballs, but they'd need to be brought up to current (-TM or -SM) standards. Otherwise you'd be flying a plane with 40yo defensive systems into combat, and nobody does that if they have more than 3 brain cells to rub together.

But that also requires having the money and avionics to update the aircraft, both of which are in short supply in Russia.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I'd be surprised if they didn't have a couple hundred or so in mothballs, but they'd need to be brought up to current (-TM or -SM) standards. Otherwise you'd be flying a plane with 40yo defensive systems into combat, and nobody does that if they have more than 3 brain cells to rub together.

But that also requires having the money and avionics to update the aircraft, both of which are in short supply in Russia.
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And you need to make sure the update doesn't involve equipment supplied by Georgia or Ukraine, which the previous Su-25 upgrades does
 
Scott Kenny said:
Otherwise you'd be flying a plane with 40yo defensive systems into combat, and nobody does that if they have more than 3 brain cells to rub together.
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With all due respect, Ukraine does, and it kinda works.
Defensive systems work in context.
SK2 said:
And you need to make sure the update doesn't involve equipment supplied by Georgia or Ukraine, which the previous Su-25 upgrades does
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no such thing, for a long time.
The problem is that available Russian upgrade is expensive and not exactly the best value for money.
 
Ainen said:
With all due respect, Ukraine does, and it kinda works.
Defensive systems work in context.
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And right now at best the Su25s Ukraine has left are flying MLRS units. They're not even doing the intended use of the Su25 as more standoff with precision weapons versus the A-10 down in the weeds with dumb weapons.
 
Scott Kenny said:
And right now at best the Su25s Ukraine has left are flying MLRS units. They're not even doing the intended use of the Su25 as more standoff with precision weapons versus the A-10 down in the weeds with dumb weapons.
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They're launching AASMs though.

Which, admittedly, isn't really CAS, but not like su-25sm3 can sustain loss rate over battlefield either, so defensive subsystem ironically doesn't matter.

Preflaring already does most of what's possible.



Ultimately those are finite aircraft, neither US nor USSR produce hundreds per year even in peacetime anymore.
 
Actually both very original Su-25 and A-10s can be armed with AGMS, in terms of Kh-23/25 and AGM-65 series
 
SK2 said:
Actually both very original Su-25 and A-10s can be armed with AGMS, in terms of Kh-23/25 and AGM-65 series
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A-10 could only carry 6x AGM-65s, and was designed around mostly flying around down in the weeds and using the gun as a primary weapon, not an "well, I've used all my missiles time to use guns" last ditch option.
 
Since North Korea unveiled two domestically developed air-to-air missiles at the 2021 exhibition
1736351412497.png
I really hope they come up with something like NASAMS or SPYDER.

It would be a perfect replacement for the S-75 and S-125 systems in terms of specification and a complement to the Pongae-6/Byeolchi-1-2 systems in terms of cost and compactness.

In theory, they already had the Kim-Tor/HQ-17 as the advanced short-range, low-altitude air defense system, but the two missile models can also be applied for the similar role.
 
ValiantHeart said:
Since North Korea unveiled two domestically developed air-to-air missiles at the 2021 exhibition
View attachment 755230
I really hope they come up with something like NASAMS or SPYDER.

It would be a perfect replacement for the S-75 and S-125 systems in terms of specification and a complement to the Pongae-6/Byeolchi-1-2 systems in terms of cost and compactness.

In theory, they already had the Kim-Tor/HQ-17 as the advanced short-range, low-altitude air defense system, but the two missile models can also be applied for the similar role.
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Is it me or does the middle strakes sorta of looks like the PL-10

unnamed.jpg
 
Because it can have comparable range while being much lighter along having SARH or ARH seeker and not be non-seeker SACLOS.
 
Sure a boost for their airforce.

My take :
https://twitter.com/x/status/1897216102104694994
View: https://x.com/Flankerchan/status/1897216102104694994



Assuming COTS TRM.. some 312 km range vs 2 sqm RCS at PD-90% Is possible with 500-600 km maximum instrumented range. The radar *has* to be AESA as .. PESA solution for that kind of array could be too heavy (77 metric tonne PESA vs 43 metric tonne for AESA solution). The thing is of whether NK Already set in for introducing a new environment and systems for their airforce and air defense to make use of the AEW.

The triangular array choice is also interesting in itself as it's closer to China's approach than Russia. Russians however do have exposure to triangular array like that from A-50I Program, but not inducting it to their own A-50U or A-100 program.
 
This could be a clear implication to confirm that North Korea will receive upgrades and expansions to their air fleet; they wouldn't do it if their fighter fleet didn't get some upgrades.

AEW aircraft, while clearly able to help North Korean air defense and air force see farther and clearer, cannot engage or defend themselves. North Korea has upgraded its air defenses significantly over the past 10 years, but it will need more modern fighters - like, a LOT - to create a safe airspace for AEW aircraft to operate in, lest it become an easy target for the US-ROK air force, which has excellent long-range engagement capabilities.

In short, we have more reason to believe that the transfer of old MiG-29s and Su-27s from Russia to Pyongyang may be true...
 
stealthflanker said:
Sure a boost for their airforce.

My take :
https://twitter.com/x/status/1897216102104694994
View: https://x.com/Flankerchan/status/1897216102104694994



Assuming COTS TRM.. some 312 km range vs 2 sqm RCS at PD-90% Is possible with 500-600 km maximum instrumented range. The radar *has* to be AESA as .. PESA solution for that kind of array could be too heavy (77 metric tonne PESA vs 43 metric tonne for AESA solution). The thing is of whether NK Already set in for introducing a new environment and systems for their airforce and air defense to make use of the AEW.

The triangular array choice is also interesting in itself as it's closer to China's approach than Russia. Russians however do have exposure to triangular array like that from A-50I Program, but not inducting it to their own A-50U or A-100 program.
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First, which previous DPRK AEW you are refering to? Any images of it?

As to this DPRK AEW, well they surprise again (or me anyway- i did read the claims previously of an AEW in the work but still didn't quite believed it , though should have considering constant DPRK advances in all fields).

This also likely puts to rest whether DPRK has AESA technology, probably the AEW radar is leveraged from AESA tech likely used in Pyoljjy-1/2 and 3 SAMs. Even more interesting, do they have now AESA tech for fighter radars? We do know that their MiG-21bis/23/29s already had a series of upgrades at least a decade old, but perhaps unlikely the new AAMs are that old and also unlikely new radars were fitted, though upgraded N-019/N-003s are likely (not sure if anything can be done with the old RP-22 though). So maybe now they will do a full upgrade, with AESA radar paired with the new AAMs and supported by AEW. Never mind the MiG-29, AESA equipped MiG-23 (or even MiG-21) anyone?
 
ValiantHeart said:
Since North Korea unveiled two domestically developed air-to-air missiles at the 2021 exhibition
View attachment 755230
I really hope they come up with something like NASAMS or SPYDER.

It would be a perfect replacement for the S-75 and S-125 systems in terms of specification and a complement to the Pongae-6/Byeolchi-1-2 systems in terms of cost and compactness.

In theory, they already had the Kim-Tor/HQ-17 as the advanced short-range, low-altitude air defense system, but the two missile models can also be applied for the similar role.
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Certainly that is a possibility and makes perfect sense. What is interesting to ponder though is whether anyone tried some measurements and guesstimates on weight and range, especially of the BVRAAM. Probably the SRAAM must be in the same class as PL-10 or Iris-T as far as metrics are concerned.
 
lancer21 said:
First, which previous DPRK AEW you are refering to? Any images of it?
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Somewhere in KPA Journal i think.. it's Il-12 with MiG-29 Nose. That's speculated as their first attempt on AEW capability.

lancer21 said:
This also likely puts to rest whether DPRK has AESA technology, probably the AEW radar is leveraged from AESA tech likely used in Pyoljjy-1/2 and 3 SAMs. Even more interesting, do they have now AESA tech for fighter radars?
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What kind of "techs" you are expecting here ? As having AESA radar is not necessarily having access to the whole processing chain. Considering that semiconductor industry is expensive. Relying only on military orders wont sustain it. Current AESA makers (China, EU, etc) sustain their industries on commercial orders, especially for the HPA (High Power Amplifier) MMIC Part, where all your AESA magic happens.
 
ValiantHeart said:
This could be a clear implication to confirm that North Korea will receive upgrades and expansions to their air fleet; they wouldn't do it if their fighter fleet didn't get some upgrades.

AEW aircraft, while clearly able to help North Korean air defense and air force see farther and clearer, cannot engage or defend themselves. North Korea has upgraded its air defenses significantly over the past 10 years, but it will need more modern fighters - like, a LOT - to create a safe airspace for AEW aircraft to operate in, lest it become an easy target for the US-ROK air force, which has excellent long-range engagement capabilities.

In short, we have more reason to believe that the transfer of old MiG-29s and Su-27s from Russia to Pyongyang may be true...
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Sneaky trick may be operating one in friendly aerospace, i guess, as well as simply wastly improving peacetime understanding of the situation(which will be highly benificial for everyone involved).

Otherwise, it's really hard to imagine making one survive, no matter the number of fighters DPRK can get from Russia.
DPRK ultimately is a small country without strategic depth.

Overall, AEW seems to be a relatively low-hanging fruit for AESA radar. Sweden got one working 30 years ago; with modern international market, it's hardly completely out of reach.
 
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sahureka said:
Russia has not only SU-27s in stock, but also operational and modernized SU-27s.
And
Mig-29SMT in storage at Millerovo airport Rostov region and Kursk airport before October 2022, then all were moved, it was thought to be reactivated for Russia itself, but the Russians currently do not use this type of in combat aircraft.
Therefore they could be made available for transfer or sale to friendly countries, certainly after major repair work
View attachment 751746

View attachment 751747
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are these the original Mig 29SMTs that Algeria rejected back in '07 due to defects & quality issues? (some components & parts of those had even previously been in storage since the late 1980s)
 
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capitan r8 said:
are these original Mig 29SMTs that Algeria rejected back in '07 due to defects & quality issues? (some components & parts of those had even previously been in storage since the late 1980s)
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Yes they are. They did serve VKS for at least a decade, obviously any faulty parts must have been replaced when they were taken over by the VKS in iirc 2009. Was always puzzled why they were retired so early, might be mistaken but iirc i've been reading about them having too many foreign components (french?) in the avionics. You'd think any foreign components could be replaced with russian ones.
 
lancer21 said:
Yes they are. They did serve VKS for at least a decade, obviously any faulty parts must have been replaced when they were taken over by the VKS in iirc 2009. Was always puzzled why they were retired so early, might be mistaken but iirc i've been reading about them having too many foreign components (french?) in the avionics. You'd think any foreign components could be replaced with russian ones.
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It's still a 1990s level fighter, more or less equal to MLU/mid block F-16s. I.e. realistically not all that much.
At this point there is quite a good chance DPRK can produce better electronic kit domestically.

What they may look for logically is either airframes(but one would argue that new ones is money better spent then?) or actually modern electronics.
 
Having thought about this and looking at current trends, getting new airframes if they can and upgrading what they have certainly makes sense for DPRK, but perhaps the next step would be an indigenous CCA, rather than an indigenous manned fighter? A CCA would be relatively inexpensive, comparatively simple and unpretentious, a fairly basic LO shape of the many examples there, even a R-25 engine would do like on the Saetbyol-4, the most difficult part being the AI and sensors. Weapons are already extant (the new AAMs), radar tech seems to be getting there too. Might not be an ideal solution, but still the AEW, deep inside DPRK airspace, could act as the command/guide post for a wall of CCAs (alongside whatever manned interceptors DPRK has or might have)?
 
lancer21 said:
the most difficult part being the AI and sensors
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Hardest part for LW is software and testing/iterating.
I think DPRK certainly can get low end mission-centric drones(like kronstadt grom), but LWs without China/Russia won't happen for a while.
Just not enough IT in the country.
 
Well, one would say that's the beauty of it. What is AI? Basically code lines on a computer (oversimplification, but still). Much easier to buy, steal or be given lines on a computer rather than a very visible, materially, politically and otherwise, combat aircraft or indeed any other highly visible combat system. DPRK would not need a western style CCA with very intricate requirements, programming, connectivity with other systems etc, just one tailored on their needs, get up, point that way, shoot, get back (if possible). Again might be oversimplification, but still it's easier to focus on achieving a narrow set of operational capabilities tailored to DPRK needs/airspace, rather than the all encompassing western approach/needs.
 
lancer21 said:
Well, one would say that's the beauty of it. What is AI? Basically code lines on a computer (oversimplification, but still). Much easier to buy, steal or be given lines on a computer rather than a very visible, materially, politically and otherwise, combat aircraft or indeed any other highly visible combat system. DPRK would not need a western style CCA with very intricate requirements, programming, connectivity with other systems etc, just one tailored on their needs, get up, point that way, shoot, get back (if possible). Again might be oversimplification, but still it's easier to focus on achieving a narrow set of operational capabilities tailored to DPRK needs/airspace, rather than the all encompassing western approach/needs.
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You're describing a cruise missile, not a CCA.
 
lancer21 said:
Yes they are. They did serve VKS for at least a decade, obviously any faulty parts must have been replaced when they were taken over by the VKS in iirc 2009. Was always puzzled why they were retired so early, might be mistaken but iirc i've been reading about them having too many foreign components (french?) in the avionics. You'd think any foreign components could be replaced with russian ones.
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They were retired mostly because the recycled airframes (that's why the Algerians rejected them) were not in good condition, and so do other components. At that time they were the last MiG-29 in Russian service, it deemed retiring them rather than buying spare for them would be more economical.
 

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