Nimrod's Genesis by Chris Gibson

[AL]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nimrods-Genesis-Hikoki-Chris-Gibson/dp/1902109473/ref=pd_sim_b_21?ie=UTF8&refRID=082SER3X9BQY8FVNQ2ES

 

[gatoraptor]

"Paperback"?? I seriously doubt that! :

 

[fudge]

Really looking forward to this. I am hoping that the HS1011 will be included along with the BAC One Eleven, VC10 and Avro projects. I remember an excellent article in Air International in 1971 or thereabouts when it was still called Air Enthusiast about the competing projects and how the Nimrod was chosen, a greatly expanded version of the story will be very welcome.
Alan

 

[Thorvic]

Really looking forward to this. I am hoping that the HS1011 will be included along with the BAC One Eleven, VC10 and Avro projects. I remember an excellent article in Air International in 1971 or thereabouts when it was still called Air Enthusiast about the competing projects and how the Nimrod was chosen, a greatly expanded version of the story will be very welcome.
Alan

I think it would as Chris has a good working relationship with Avro Heritage at Woodford, as well as other heritage and Aviation archives. I expect we'll get another excellent work covering the British MPA saga ;D , ironically at a time when we no longer have a dedicated aircraft for the role :'( .
However that situation may well be addressed or at least reviewed in the 2015 SDSR due after the next election; you never know they may actually read Chris's new book (as it will be published by then) before making their decision so that they don't make another FUBAR but that's asking a lot !

 

[Thorvic]

http://www.crecy.co.uk/nimrod-s-genesis
The official publishers on the forthcoming book with a few more details:-

To counter the threat from a Soviet 'blue water' navy, a large investment was made in the years from 1945 until the 1960s, to develop maritime patrol aircraft. For years the Air Staff and Ministries had argued over what type should replace the Shakleton, including variants of the Vulcan, Britannia, VC10 and Trident, before one man strode into the MoD building in 1964, settling the argument with what became Nimrod.
To seek and destroy Soviet submarines, Shackletons and Nimrods carried many advanced weapons and sensors, but also played a role in saving lives at sea. Then, after forty years' service, the Nimrods were withdrawn without replacement after one of the most expensive procurement disasters.
Chris Gibson examines the post-war genesis of the RAF's maritime patrol aircraft, a process that led to Nimrod. From the last flying boats, attempts to improve then replace the Shackleton and ultimately the Nimrod itself, Gibson provides a fascinating insight into the aircraft, weapons and sensors developed to counter the Soviet submarine threat.
Available October 2014Product descriptionISBN: 978 19021 09473Binding: HardbackDimentions: 297 x 210Pages: 176Photos/Illus: Over 150

 

[uk 75]

All I can say is "Excellent!"

 

[pathology_doc]

That side blister behind the Vulcan's cockpit can't have done anything good to the aerodyamics. I can't see why you'd pick a Vulcan for maritime patrol anyway - you want a high aspect ratio for economical cruise and loiter. Will have to read to find out the story behind that one!


Maritime attack or strike is quite another matter. If you can put ten Sea Darts under the wings, surely you can put ten TV or ARM Martels there (or a mix of both), with the datalink gear in the bomb bay.


Shall be looking out for it.

 

[Hood]

Looks like another book to add to my bookshelves!
I'm sure there's going to be some interesting stuff in this volume.

 

[FighterJock]

Another book from Chris Gibson so soon after Listening In? I will certainly be considering this book as well as I have also got his two previous books already in my collection.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Another book from Chris Gibson so soon after Listening In? I will certainly be considering this book as well as I have also got his two previous books already in my collection.

Listening in was edited by Chris but the work of Dave Forster.

 

[boxkite]

Book seems to be postponed to March 2015 ... :'( . What is author's or editor's level of knowledge regarding date of release?

 

[FighterJock]

I saw that too on Waterstones website, seams strange to postpone the release date when it is so near the original date. :'(.

 

[CJGibson]

Aye. Postponed, for various reasons, including enlargement in Crecy's catalogue. Don't worry, it'll be worth the wait.

Have a jacket as a taster.

Chris

 

[JohnR]

Is the image at the bottom of the back of the jacket the HS 1101? I've wanted more info on that since I first read about it about 25 years ago.

I'm really looking forward to receiving this book.

Regards.

 

[CJGibson]

It is a HS.1011, making rooster tails on Windermere.

I have a look at the 1011 and the later HS.1023 in the MR role. Also have a look at why you would or would not want a VG transonic MR type. Not just for speedy transits.

Chris

 

[pathology_doc]

I have a look at the 1011 and the later HS.1023 in the MR role. Also have a look at why you would or would not want a VG transonic MR type. Not just for speedy transits.

Ooh. I can think of very good reasons why I WOULD want one - seems the ideal combination of rapid transit and loitering with intent (high aspect ratio), with a side order of maritime attack/strike with PGM or ASM/nukes thrown in for good measure. Being able to outrun the blast of your own nuclear depth bomb would also be an asset. B)


Technological and cost considerations aside, I can't think of any good reason NOT to have one.

 

[CJGibson]

Morning all,

Nimrod's Genesis has been handed over for printing. Hopefully it will be available in March, if not before.

NIMROD’S GENESIS - Chapter Summaries

Introduction – The Cold War and the burgeoning Soviet submarine threat, the need for new technologies and aircraft to keep pace with the threat. The ever-changing requirements and the need to address the SSBN and SLBM. New tasks such as SAR and EEZ patrol. There's a Russian carrier in the Firth!

1 Voenno-morskoj flot SSSR and the Threat from Below – The rise of the Soviet submarine service, how these forces developed and what threats they posed, firstly to NATO convoys and later to the cities and populace in the West. The developments in SLBMs and how these influenced Soviet strategy and the NATO ASW response. How Russia’s maritime power evolved, the aspirations for a blue water navy and how the Soviets addressed NATO’s improving ASW capabilities.

2 Hunter/Killer: Sensors and Weapons for Aircraft – How to find submarines by technical means; radar, MAD, infrared, sonar and sniffers. How many of these developments have had unusual offshoots in the civil and military world. How to sink submarines; rockets, depth charges, torpedoes and nuclear depth bombs. Why Tallboy disappeared, the Z-series torpedoes, the 3in rocket and its bigger, faster uncle. The Lulu, WE.177 and B57 nuclear depth bombs and how to use them. Underwater hittiles – homing torpedoes such as Zeta, Bidder Pentane and Stingray. Woodford’s torpedo delivery vehicle. Green Cheese and other air-launched missiles including the ‘disappointing MARTel’, SS.12 and Sea Eagle, with the eventual acquisition of the Harpoon.

3 Old Men and Airships: The Last Flying Boats – The flying boat factions fight it out over R.2/48. Why flying boats disappeared from the scene. The R.2/48 Sunderland replacement saga and decade-long argument on flying boats. The various R.2/48 proposals from Shorts, Saro and Supermarine, how and why Saro said ‘We wuz robbed’ and how engine choice affected the various designs. The Nomad and Slessor’s ‘tramp steamer’.

4 The Kipper Fleet: Short and Medium Range MR – The Admiralty’s concerns about inshore maritime security, the threat from mining and reason for short-range MR such as the Seamew and anything with wings. The medium-range proposals for variants of the Varsity, Viscount, Freighter, Ambassador. The Neptunes from American and how these were viewed by the Air Staff.

5 Avro’s Bespoke Maritime Landplane – The Shackleton, the RAF’s displeasure with the MR.1 and how Avro addressed these criticisms. The first Shackleton replacement - larger Type 716 and 719, the Bristol 175MR and 189 and how Bristol won but lost. Canadian developments in maritime patrol aircraft.

6 Sideshows: NATO and the Trinity – NBMR.2 and replacing the Neptune. The UK’s relationship with NBMR.2 and how the Atlantic came about. Avro’s considerable influence on the Atlantic. The politics behind NBMR.2, how the oceanic participants dropped out and RAF rejected Atlantic. English Electric’s DC.7 proposal, Armstrong Whitworth’s maritime wheelbarrow, Bristol and Fairey’s design studies and Saro’s last military flying boat. Dorniers P340 designs at the cutting edge of flying boat design. Avro’s Type 745, its relationship with the Atlantic and the finances of building the Atlantic. Trinity – the RAF’s wish for a three-role ‘Goldilocks’ type and how each role was compromised by the other two. The multirole VC10, HS.1011, Vickers VG SST and HP’s laminar flow SST. Canada’s later attempt to emulate Trinity with the LRPA.

7 Following Trinity: OR.350 – The first real attempt to replace the Shackleton. Design studies from almost every aircraft firm in the land. The content of OR.350 and the need to tackle the SSBN with the next generation of ASW sensors that never appeared. The attempts to interest overseas air forces and the RAF’s bar-raising requirement. The effect of transit speed on designs; the VC10 again, and RAF reject Atlantic again, Avro’s many studies (bespoke and converted), including the swept-wing Atlantic and Vickers jet-propelled Vanguards. The conversions of tactical transports such as HS.681 and Belfast. Compromises such as the Vanguard studies from Weybridge.

8 Plus Ça Change:OR.357 – The changes made for the new requirement and reduction in the number of runners, but the usual suspects re-appear. The VC10 again, RAF reject Atlantic again and a firm favourite in the Avro’s 776. Vickers’ and BAC’s attempts to address the criticisms of the VC10 with numerous design studies from Weybridge including VG, laminar flow and what could be described as the ultimate VC10. A new Belfast/Britannia hybrid with regenerative turboprops. A redesigned HS.681MR and the HS Trident developments.

9 Not So Interim MR: OR.381 – The cost time-bomb with the Big Three and the plot to acquire the Atlantic under ASR.381. Dealing with the French, an industry in revolt and the Air Staff’s surprise at the Maritime Comet amongst others and RAF reject Atlantic again. The VC10 again, HS.800, Trident MR, BAC 10-11 and the Vanguard. What to call the Maritime Comet and what colour to paint it. The Mighty Hunter arrives.

10 Replacing the Maritime Comet – The Nimrod MR.2 upgrade providing OR.357 capabilities and improvements in sensors for the 80s. Post-Falklands add-ons to the weapons suite and the Nimrod’s nemesis. A new MR type – design studies from the 70s and 80s such as the Mercure- and BAe.146-derived BAe.829 studies and the clean-sheet BAe.830. The VC10 again and BAC’s One-Eleven studies for Japan. A return to multirole aircraft with the MRSA and the BAe.849. George’s Comets and SR(A).420 – the RAF reject Atlantic again, Orions galore and Nimrod 2000. The MRA.4, the end of the Nimrod and dedicated RAF maritime patrol.

Conclusion - A 21st Century Swordfish – The possibilities for an RAF maritime patrol aircraft post-2011 such as the Poseidon or converted commuter airliner.

Glossary and Selected Bibliography
Appendix 1 Requirements & Specifications

Appendix 2 Rescue and Tapestry – Fishing people out of the drink and maritime aircraft in the SAR role. Airborne lifeboats and the RAF’s area of SAR responsibility. Tapestry - protecting the Crown’s jewellery. The Cod Wars, the implementation of Exclusive Economic Zones and the many types for patrolling the EEZ. The British cheap response and the ultimate expensive solution.

Appendix 3 The Blind Alley – The RAF’s brief dalliance with rotary-winged ASW types. Too small, too noisy and too complicated. The Sycamore, the Rotodyne and the flying saucer.

Incidentally I’ve been liaising with Mel at S+M Models who have produced a series of 1/144 scale conversion kits to produce many of the types described in Nimrod’s Genesis. These include:
Viscount MMR, Viscount MMR with Tail Turret, VC-10 to OR381, VC-10 Scheme B,
Vanguard MMR, Trident MR1, Britannia MR

Hope this tweaks your interest.

Chris

 

[phil gollin]

.


Excellent !


Chapter 2 sounds wonderful - and definitely needs more pages


.

 

[FighterJock]

Great news, Looking forward to it.

 

[Jemiba]

A must-have for me ! Will the option of ordering directly from you, as with the
Project Tech Profile series , be available here, too ?

 

[CJGibson]

Afraid not, Crecy handles the sales.

Chris

 

[Antonio]

On my wish list too.

 

[AEWMan]

Hey well done Chris another excellent subject. Someone asked the question at the top of the thread "why would you choose a Vulcan for MRR”. Well the RAF did just that as during my first tour at Scampton 1975 to 1978 - 27Sqn's Vulcans main role was indeed MRR and they were very good at it.

The only modification they had for the role was their high gloss polyurethane paint job, which their Boss Wg Cdr Willis had to get permission for, it was supposed to keep the salt spray off the airframe (what does that tell you about their operating altitudes).

They conducted Tapestry sorties and were excellent at obtaining and maintaing a surface picture and controlling “LOWPRO’s” (low probe missions in which a Bucc or something similar would do a fast visual flyby) in which othe faster aircraft were sent down to I/D unknown vessels. It was not uncommon for Vulcans to do “SELPRO’s” (self probe missions where the Vulcan would investigate the unknown return itself). I woon’t mention the “sniffer pods” – whoops I just did.

Cheers

Ian

 

[CJGibson]

You been raiding my hard drive?

Chris

 

[CJGibson]

The Atlantic has the last laugh:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11283926/Britain-forced-to-ask-Nato-to-track-Russian-submarine-in-Scottish-waters.html

Chris

(I remember the days when the Telegraph would never have used the term 'spy plane' for a reconnaissance asset)

 

[Jemiba]

...I remember the days when the Telegraph would never have used the term 'spy plane' for a reconnaissance asset

... especially as the article itself correctly speaks of "Maritime patrol aircraft". But the use of such boastful
words isn't limited to British newspapers, you can find it regularly in German ones, too. I'm just not sure
if it is only degraded journalism, or an adaption to the demands and capabilities of the standard reader
of those papers, who are often said, not to read the articles at all, but the headlines only. :-\

 

[CJGibson]

I wonder who saw the periscope in the first place?

Chris

 

[shedofdread]

I wonder who saw the periscope in the first place?

Chris

Clearly someone / something that was taken *quite* seriously...

 

[pathology_doc]

Chapter 2 sounds wonderful - and definitely needs more pages

Chapter 2's headings could probably be expanded to fill a book in their own right. Perhaps we will see that one down the road, but all in good time, my friend... all in good time.

 

[phil gollin]

Chapter 2 sounds wonderful - and definitely needs more pages

Chapter 2's headings could probably be expanded to fill a book in their own right. Perhaps we will see that one down the road, but all in good time, my friend... all in good time.

.


WAY BEFORE THE FINANCIAL CRISIS, I know that one of the RN's Historical Branch was assigned to write the official staff history of the RN's Cold War ASW. THAT, rather obviously, will be highly confidential - but I've always had hopes that a downgraded version might eventually released to the public.


.

 

[pathology_doc]

I think if you washed it of all hints about who was where and exactly what they did to exactly whom, you might get it past the censors. Either that or wait for a yellowed copy to turn up at an estate sale, or find its way into the darkest corners of the mustiest shelves of the most obscure second-hand bookshop. There you will enjoy an assignation with a woman named Julia, and shortly thereafter... but I digress.

 

[CJGibson]

I don't go into great detail on this, but I look at some of the dead-ends and novel techniques such as Yellow Duckling and Have Garden. Most of the developments in ASV radar and sonar have been covered elsewhere in greater depth. I assume readers are familiar with the basics, but do show how ASW has helped (or hindered) everyday life.

Chris

 

[CNH]

Did you ever look at the Saunders Roe Hydrofoil missile?

"This design study has been compiled in satisfaction of an Admiralty requirement for an investigation into the possibilities of a radio-controlled hydrofoil missile capable of delivering a store at high speed to a target within a range of approximately 50miles."

 

[CJGibson]

I did ponder that one but stuck to air-delivered weapons. However, it will be in a future project I'm discussing that will include Blue Slug and ATGWs, essentially what was left out of BSP4. So patience, patience. If the oilfield goes down the pan, it could be available sooner rather than later!

Chris

 

[CJGibson]

hmmm...up the loch as far as Faslane? Somebody is taking the piss.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11334836/MoD-forced-to-ask-US-for-help-in-tracking-Russian-submarine.html

Chris

 

[shedofdread]

Do bare in mind that via 'Seedcorn', the crews may have a significant UK dimension....


That doesn't change the fact that this situation is ridiculous

 

[Thorvic]

Do bare in mind that via 'Seedcorn', the crews may have a significant UK dimension....


That doesn't change the fact that this situation is ridiculous

Maybe on the RCAF Aurora last Nov, but not the last time as the 20 UK seedcorn staff assigned to the USN are all on P-8/ Triton, 6 are with the RCAF and the other 6 are with the Australian and New Zealand units.

Can you guess where the MOD's and ther services interest lie should the Capability Gap be filled in the 2015 SDSR !

 

[shedofdread]

Do bare in mind that via 'Seedcorn', the crews may have a significant UK dimension....


That doesn't change the fact that this situation is ridiculous

Maybe on the RCAF Aurora last Nov, but not the last time as the 20 UK seedcorn staff assigned to the USN are all on P-8/ Triton, 6 are with the RCAF and the other 6 are with the Australian and New Zealand units.

Can you guess where the MOD's and ther services interest lie should the Capability Gap be filled in the 2015 SDSR !

Smoke signals are saying there won't be money for P8s This is all to filed under 'don't get me started'...

 

[pathology_doc]

Amazon.ca have just sent me a "We're still trying to get this for you" message. I hope I don't run into the same uphill battle I fought to get JSP2!!

 

[CJGibson]

Here's the score:

Off to the printer tomorrow, slow boat from China or somewhere out east, due in UK at end of March.

Chris