Next C-130 will be a Vertical Lift Cargo plane

[TomS]

Ummm... "mag-grips" in the gloves. Cool. On the surface of what appears to be a stealthy aircraft, thus ceramics/plastics/carbon fiber skin. *Maaaaaybe* aluminum skin. But *iron* skin? Ummmm...

UMMMMM....

You were fine with the guys in jetpacks matching the cruise speed and altitude of a jet aircraft, but "mag grips" is where you checked out? Okaaay...

 

[Orionblamblam]

You were fine with the guys in jetpacks matching the cruise speed and altitude of a jet aircraft, but "mag grips" is where you checked out? Okaaay...

Jet packs are silly, but they exist, and they ave flown alongside jet aircraft. Mag-grips gripping plastic violates the laws of physics.

 

[publiusr]

Well, some plastic mixes can conduct electricity

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b-TJJDvdBvE

Wasn’t there a fictional “plasti-steel?”

 

[Scott Kenny]

Ummm... "mag-grips" in the gloves. Cool. On the surface of what appears to be a stealthy aircraft, thus ceramics/plastics/carbon fiber skin. *Maaaaaybe* aluminum skin. But *iron* skin? Ummmm...

ferrite materials in the skin?

Ferrites have been the known stealth coating since before Stealth was a thing...

 

[TomS]

Jet packs are silly, but they exist, and they ave flown alongside jet aircraft. Mag-grips gripping plastic violates the laws of physics.

View attachment 719136

I didn't realize that had been done.

 

[Prophet141]

ferrite materials in the skin?

Ferrites have been the known stealth coating since before Stealth was a thing...

I forgot about ferrite stealth coatings. Perhaps this (I assume relatively cheaper solution) would be used for a cargo aircraft as a non-combat aircraft not expected to conduct deep penetration missions, but rather clandestinely complete internal operations without people tracking it... Ignoring the fact that the mission before that scene sees the main character put a tracker on the aircraft, which is hardly the fault of the aircraft's design.

 

[TomcatViP]

Rocket cargo with air drop to deliver payload:

Rocket Cargo is go! Air Force's experimental resupply program moves closer to the launch pad - Breaking Defense

The investment in transitioning Rocket Cargo "is focused on utilizing vehicles that traverse from or through space to transport DoD materiel anywhere around the world within tactically responsive timelines," the Space Force's FY25 budget request says.

breakingdefense.com

 

[yasotay]

Well it sounds great and having watched enough of Elons rockets landing, I expect not overly hard to do. But once directed energy weapons become practical it may not be as spectacular a method as we expect. Helping the locals a day after a massive natural disaster is a great idea. Resupply against a peer enemy in a major combat environment, I suspect, would be less desirable.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Well it sounds great and having watched enough of Elons rockets landing, I expect not overly hard to do. But once directed energy weapons become practical it may not be as spectacular a method as we expect. Helping the locals a day after a massive natural disaster is a great idea. Resupply against a peer enemy in a major combat environment, I suspect, would be less desirable.

Yeah, I suspect that peer resupply will require a relatively LO aircraft flying down in the weeds. Yasotay's favorite flight altitude!

 

[yasotay]

Yeah, I suspect that peer resupply will require a relatively LO aircraft flying down in the weeds. Yasotay's favorite flight altitude!

Don't forget low ceiling, rain, and slightly above freezing. Patchy fog in places other than the landing point would be nice too. Crunchies, for the most part, don't like to be out and about in that sort of weather.

I would also add to my concerns with this methods (Rocket Cargo) would need to be well back behind the lines because I would suspect a capability of this nature, well observed from launch, would attract things of a hypersonic or large and long ranged nature.

 

[TomcatViP]

It will be much safer than anything else that can bring to a forward location the same mass.

You have extreem reach, speed, insertion at high supersonic speed, point landing infrastructure, offset landing point (this is not a missile that aim for a known, heavily defended point) and a very heavy payload. IMOHO, It can't be more difficult to beat that.

 

[yasotay]

@TomcatViP - I will give you that the speed of insertion would likely not be beat until transporter beams show up. However because it would be a national resource on the same level as an aircraft carrier it would also become a high value target like a carrier. I would agree with your points, other than that the off-load and refuel time would likely necessitate a semi-prepared and well defended location as neither are likely to be faster than done today. While some of the lower elements of the flight might be out of range of most radar coverage, and UAS, the cell phone is ubiquitous now. Cellphone monitoring is too easy. With AI enabled speech recognition, Grandma's and college kids will help targeting locations triangulation complaining about rocket noise. Assuming there are still functional reconnaissance satellites they have a smaller area to look. I am taken aback at how fast everyone learns about actions in the Russo-Ukrainian War.
Landing several hundred miles from the frontlines would be more likely, but we are talking about tactical airlift. A C-130 can land on a dirt strip, offload and be back in the air in under 10 minutes. A HLVTOL could land in most any field big enough, offload and depart in the same amount of time. Not sure the rocket would have this sort of turn time. Also a heavy rocket landing in a field might make a bit of a hole under it. I mean if a Harrier would blast the earth, I think a very heavy rocket might also be challenged not to do so.
Still, I am old and can suffer the same intransigence common to old folk.

 

[publiusr]

Rocket cargo with air drop to deliver payload:

Rocket Cargo is go! Air Force's experimental resupply program moves closer to the launch pad - Breaking Defense

The investment in transitioning Rocket Cargo "is focused on utilizing vehicles that traverse from or through space to transport DoD materiel anywhere around the world within tactically responsive timelines," the Space Force's FY25 budget request says.

breakingdefense.com

Yes or no:

Without a separate Space Force—no way the USAF funds this?

A cargo craft need not be full Starship…maybe a Biconic deal that blows apart fairing style once subsonic with a C-130 pallet descending as if dropped a bit higher and faster.

 

[Ainen]

It will be much safer than anything else that can bring to a forward location the same mass.

You have extreem reach, speed, insertion at high supersonic speed, point landing infrastructure, offset landing point (this is not a missile that aim for a known, heavily defended point) and a very heavy payload. IMOHO, It can't be more difficult to beat that.

It's a rocket that will obviously have to stop, and do so very very carefully and at first chance (no fuel to loiter).
Sounds like a pretty obvious long-range AA target - even at extreme ranges...

 

[Scott Kenny]

It's a rocket that will obviously have to stop, and do so very very carefully and at first chance (no fuel to loiter).
Sounds like a pretty obvious long-range AA target - even at extreme ranges...

Depends on how fast it comes down, and how much thrust the engines can put out. (I'm assuming a one-way trip, much like the SpaceX Falcons)

Because if you keep enough fuel to do a 3.5gee decel burn, you can stay pretty fast until you're down below big-SAM engagement altitudes.

 

[Ainen]

Depends on how fast it comes down, and how much thrust the engines can put out. (I'm assuming a one-way trip, much like the SpaceX Falcons)

Because if you keep enough fuel to do a 3.5gee decel burn, you can stay pretty fast until you're down below big-SAM engagement altitudes.

The entire problem is that there is no end to the envelope.
Intercepting BM is too late when theoretical interception point goes below the surface.
But active seeker will find a transport rocket where it went below the horizon anyway. Even if you've just landed, it isn't a big problem.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The entire problem is that there is no end to the envelope.
Intercepting BM is too late when theoretical interception point goes below the surface.
But active seeker will find a transport rocket where it went below the horizon anyway. Even if you've just landed, it isn't a big problem.

If the rocket has landed and fuel/oxidizer tanks are empty, then it doesn't matter much if it gets hit by a SAM. Might suffer some damage to cargo, but the cargo is already where it's needed.

 

[yasotay]

Empty fuel/oxidizer tanks are not" empty. There is likely to be some contingency level remaining. A fuel tank with atomized residual is far more explosive than full of liquids. Now I suppose you could quickly purge those tanks on landing, hopefully without risk to the logistics crews trying to get to the delivered goods. Without the means to refuel (quite a lot of fuel/oxidizer I would imagine) the rocket becomes a target waiting to be hit. The longer it stays in one place the higher the probability it will be targeted.

Prepared locations, well defended against SSM-LR and Kamikaze drones alike, and access to bulk fuel/oxidizer to return the the rocket to safety, seem the only way to make this survivable enough to warrant use in modern general warfare.

Meanwhile I will expect tactical airlifters to remain the most cost effective and efficient means to conduct forward logistics movement.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Empty fuel/oxidizer tanks are not" empty. There is likely to be some contingency level remaining. A fuel tank with atomized residual is far more explosive than full of liquids. Now I suppose you could quickly purge those tanks on landing, hopefully without risk to the logistics crews trying to get to the delivered goods. Without the means to refuel (quite a lot of fuel/oxidizer I would imagine) the rocket becomes a target waiting to be hit. The longer it stays in one place the higher the probability it will be targeted.

If it's using hydrogen or methane as fuel they can just vent the tank to atmospheric pressure and any flammables would just rise into the air. Keep the tank itself full of gaseous hydrogen or methane and there's no chance of boom inside the tank.

The somewhat bigger challenge is oxidizer. I'm trying to remember what it was that was a mix of LOX and ... liquid N2O?, has a storage point of about -25degC. Far higher than either one by themselves.

Meanwhile I will expect tactical airlifters to remain the most cost effective and efficient means to conduct forward logistics movement.

Agreed.

 

[Byeman]

Yes or no:

Without a separate Space Force—no way the USAF funds this?

A cargo craft need not be full Starship…maybe a Biconic deal that blows apart fairing style once subsonic with a C-130 pallet descending as if dropped a bit higher and faster.

yes,
and yes it does have to be a full starship. there is nothing that will get a biconic anywhere.

 

[publiusr]

NSF guys talk about a star-kicker that isn't full Starship.

 

[TomcatViP]

SOC moving forward with Autonomous Cargo delivery for C-130 Airplanes.

Merlin to Automate U.S. Special Operations Command C-130s

The U.S. Special Operations Command has awarded a $105 million contract to Merlin to build virtually autonomously operated C-130J Super Hercules transports.

www.flyingmag.com

See also USAF similar push for autonomous KC-135s

 

[TomcatViP]

Aurora HVSTOL-X probably late rendering (not sure if we have it already):

 

[TomcatViP]

The US Air Force is looking for a new regional airlifter that would not require traditional ground infrastructure such as a maintained runway.

Dubbed the Runway Independent Mobility/Next Generation Intra-theatre Airlift (NGIA), the programme aims to enhance the air force’s existing airlift capability “with an intra-theatre platform that can fight through damaged infrastructure on responsive timelines”, according to the service.

US Air Force seeks new ‘runway independent’ regional airlifter

The Next Generation Intra-theater Airlift programme aims to enhance the air force's existing airlift capability with a regional logistics aircraft able to operate without ground infrastructure like a maintained runway.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[jsport]

US Air Force seeks new ‘runway independent’ regional airlifter

The Next Generation Intra-theater Airlift programme aims to enhance the air force's existing airlift capability with a regional logistics aircraft able to operate without ground infrastructure like a maintained runway.

www.flightglobal.com

well, this was only needed & discussed for ahhhh-- 50yrs.

 

[snne]

US Air Force seeks new ‘runway independent’ regional airlifter

The Next Generation Intra-theater Airlift programme aims to enhance the air force's existing airlift capability with a regional logistics aircraft able to operate without ground infrastructure like a maintained runway.

www.flightglobal.com

This is quite far-fetched but I wish they'd just licence build the A-400M in the States...

 

[TomS]

It's worth taking a look at the actual RFI text. While the Flight International story says Runway Independent points to something like the V-22 or F-35B, the actual RFI talks specifically about using unimproved or damaged runways and STOL/VSTOL, not VTOL.

SAM.gov

sam.gov

 

[yasotay]

VTOL is expensive. If it is not critical to the mission, it will fallout early. Admittedly a tilt rotor fan (no pun intended), I do not see the likely cost will be viable if the RFI does not specifically require it. A400 is a superb platform, but again, I suspect it is less competative due to cost. This could be incorrect if extended range is a critical design point. The only reason I think the Aurora HSVTOL could remain viable, as it is a quasi-stealth platform, is that it can also act as a bomber, able to carry a number of drop-deploy cruise missiles, closer to a target. If it was clear that the USAF was truely only interested in cargo operations, I might propose a C-27J with a blown flap wing replacement. If I really wanted to get sporty I might consider a hybrid power system with distributed thrust.
With the USAF facing the same funding challenges as the rest of the DoD, I will be surprised if this effort comes to fruition.

 

[FighterJock]

VSTOL is always going to be expensive to develop yasotay, I don't think that there will be a VSTOL successor to the C-130 for that very reason.

 

[TomcatViP]

STOL will do good enough without any doubts. With the increase in power available, distributed engines, even a modernized C-130 would be compatible if LM does seriously tackle the matter. And don't forget the fight specified in the requirements. The new design will have to maneuver, defend itself regarding IADS threats* and be part of the fighting force when required.
We are not talking of a frail airframe with only one trick in its sleeve.

*This could englobe terrain masking and tactical flight.

 

[TomS]

And don't forget the fight specified in the requirements. The new design will have to maneuver, defend itself regarding IADS threats* and be part of the fighting force when required.

I think you are misinterpreting this passage:

3. Background Information
The Department of the Air Force’s (DAF’s) goal is to enhance existing airlift capability and capacity with an intra-theater platform that can fight through damaged infrastructure on responsive timelines.

Here, "fight through" is just Air Force speak for being able to continue the mission despite damage to runways and other facilities.

 

[TomcatViP]

@TomS : here is the RFI extract:

The Department of the Air Force’s (DAF’s) goal is to enhance existing airlift capability and capacity with an intra-theater platform that can fight through damaged infrastructure on responsive timelines. The primary mission will include intra-theater airlift to support Agile Combat Employment (ACE) for both cluster-to-cluster and intra-cluster movement of cargo and personnel to/from unimproved surfaces and/or damaged runways. Secondary missions will include joint support, forward area refueling point (FARP) operations, rapid force projection, and non-traditional base defense

I think it's little more. As you can see, fight is mentioned in parallel to damaged rwy and base defense is part of the mission (that means sensor and weapons carried and activated).
Damaged infra means that the aircraft can continue its mission with down landing assistances like base ILS or Tacan etc... And, as I understand also, minimal support like friendly air defenses etc... Hence being able to do Tactical flight routinely during its mission or being stealth.

It's not a commercial derived cargo plane. You are not going to meet the RFI with a 737-800BCF.

 

[Scott Kenny]

It's not a commercial derived cargo plane. You are not going to meet the RFI with a 737-800BCF.

Not going to meet it with a C130, either.

Probably going to take a LO-shaped* STOL monster.

* As in just the shaping, no major RAM/RAS use outside of the inlets.

 

[yasotay]

The only way I think LO becomes part of the equation is that it will be used for more aggressive missions (bomber) as mentioned above. The SOF mission is also a potential priority mission that could make a stealth platform worth the expense. With the flat budgets in the US DoD, the USAF trying to come up with new fighters, refuelers, and a somewhat specialized transport seems to me, problematic. That said an aircraft designed with  reduced RCS, burried propulsors (engines and fans) might not be cost prohibative.
While I am clearly a proponent for tilt rotors, the complexity of the stop fold seems to me to make it a less likely contender, unless there is Joint interest, and Joint investment. Highly unlikely in the current budget environment.
I think the potential of the hybrid power distributed propulsion technology could be worth consideration, if it scales adequately. But again, it is not well tried and there is no data on its viability of electric propulsors in harsh environments.
Honestly I doubt this will be anything more than another stilborn white paper.

 

[yasotay]

Revised Fold-Away Rotor Aircraft Concepts Emerge From Special Operations X-Plane Program

Fast-flying runway-independent aircraft with folding rotors, crewed and uncrewed, could perform more than just special operations missions.

www.twz.com

Latest. Bell Flight continues to improve their stop/fold designs.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The only way I think LO becomes part of the equation is that it will be used for more aggressive missions (bomber) as mentioned above. The SOF mission is also a potential priority mission that could make a stealth platform worth the expense. With the flat budgets in the US DoD, the USAF trying to come up with new fighters, refuelers, and a somewhat specialized transport seems to me, problematic. That said an aircraft designed with  reduced RCS, burried propulsors (engines and fans) might not be cost prohibative.

relatively stealthy refuelers and tactical transports are probably required for the modern peer conflict.

And of course SOF want the stealthiest transport they can have, but keep forgetting that "looking like just another UPS truck" is still a valid camouflage.

 

[yasotay]

Having seen C-27J in action landing in a harsh enviroment with a impressively short roll out, I personally think it should have a go at the requirement. If needed a new wing with blown flaps and re-engine (perhaps YC-14 turbofan like) and redone landing gear, might be a solution. But then you are almost making a new aircraft so why go with an aircraft USAF got rid of.

Truth be told, a "few" sips of bourbon might have helped this post along.

 

[GTX]

Having seen C-27J in action landing in a harsh enviroment with a impressively short roll out, I personally think it should have a go at the requirement.

Only if someone can fix the supportability of this platform - it is atrocious!

 

[yasotay]

Only if someone can fix the supportability of this platform - it is atrocious!

I would hope that the US Leonardo would appreciate that. I have not honestly read/heard about how well the US team is doing compared to the Italian. I have heard here, and elsewhere that they are not well known for their logistics support.

 

[GTX]

I would hope that the US Leonardo would appreciate that. I have not honestly read/heard about how well the US team is doing compared to the Italian. I have heard here, and elsewhere that they are not well known for their logistics support.

Leonardo is a pain to deal with globally as I understand it.