Navy Seeks Rail Guns, Lasers, Cruise Missiles To Improve Pacific Firepower

[TomS]

The projectile is capable of working in a 127mm weapon, but this contract specifically is for USMC 155mm systems. Navy will probably test some in their Mk45 test mounts before long, but we'll have to wait and see if they find the money for a bigger buy.

Spoiler: They won't. Seriously, I'm quite sure the Navy will find a way to sabotage yet another guided gun round program. They've only had 50 years of practice.

 

[TomS]

It's likely a saboted sub-calibre projectile, so all you have to change is the sabot size. Mentions 127mm in the video at 4:00 mark anyway.

Going back to watch the Naval News video, around 2:30, the GA rep says the 127mm version would be different (smaller and shorter) than the current 155mm version. So not like HVP, which is the same projectile with different sabots.

I'm intrigued that they feel the need for such a pronounced gripping feature (the shark gills) to make a mid-body sabot work.

 

[jsport]

Since jsport and others have shown interest in the topic:

https://www.army.mil/article/205046/new_technology_testing_may_achieve_the_goals_of_harp_space_gun

Light gas gun (for space launch). Images from https://greenlaunch.org/march-2018/

Greece to Become Big Source of Replacement Shells in $1.9 Billion Czech Ammo Plan for Ukraine

Europe and the US have huge plans for future production, but the critical bit is that it will be at least a month before emergency buys like this Greek ammo reach Kyiv’s gunners in quantity.

www.kyivpost.com

The iEidiseis reports that Greek ammo dumps contain 175mm shells in “huge quantities” and that the munition would become part of the ammunition delivery to Ukraine, the report says.

According to the Netherlands-based tracking site Oryx, Ukraine has never received artillery systems capable of firing the American 1960s-era 175mm heavy shell. The iEidiseis report said that “a small number of 175mm cannon remain in service” in the Greek military, but “many systems require maintenance.”

 

[Forest Green]

Greece to Become Big Source of Replacement Shells in $1.9 Billion Czech Ammo Plan for Ukraine

Europe and the US have huge plans for future production, but the critical bit is that it will be at least a month before emergency buys like this Greek ammo reach Kyiv’s gunners in quantity.

www.kyivpost.com

The iEidiseis reports that Greek ammo dumps contain 175mm shells in “huge quantities” and that the munition would become part of the ammunition delivery to Ukraine, the report says.

According to the Netherlands-based tracking site Oryx, Ukraine has never received artillery systems capable of firing the American 1960s-era 175mm heavy shell. The iEidiseis report said that “a small number of 175mm cannon remain in service” in the Greek military, but “many systems require maintenance.”

Oooo, it's an L/60.

M107 self-propelled gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TeourdBeourglaer]

Making it combat rugged is extremely hard still. That's alot of power going thru the system. anything goes wrong a surge in power can fry things quickly.

Yup!
Like the Railgun, "Ruggedization" seems to be what's holding the Army back from fielding Lasers by now, although they seem close...

 

[Mr.T]

Greece to Become Big Source of Replacement Shells in $1.9 Billion Czech Ammo Plan for Ukraine

Europe and the US have huge plans for future production, but the critical bit is that it will be at least a month before emergency buys like this Greek ammo reach Kyiv’s gunners in quantity.

www.kyivpost.com

The iEidiseis reports that Greek ammo dumps contain 175mm shells in “huge quantities” and that the munition would become part of the ammunition delivery to Ukraine, the report says.

According to the Netherlands-based tracking site Oryx, Ukraine has never received artillery systems capable of firing the American 1960s-era 175mm heavy shell. The iEidiseis report said that “a small number of 175mm cannon remain in service” in the Greek military, but “many systems require maintenance.”

Imagine the calculus , small number of 175mm optionally serviceable cannon ,that fire low round counts per minute with limited range, and huge number of shells for them.

Tell me you are disposing of scrap metal and hazardous scrap without saying so.

Czech Lord of war sure is making a killing

Meet 27-Year-Old Arms Dealer Michal Strnad, The Czech Industrialist With ‘More Tanks’ Than The Army

When the Iron Curtain lifted, and Soviet influence in Europe came to a close, one family turned scrap weaponry into a billion-dollar business

www.forbes.com

 

[TinWing]

Oooo, it's an L/60.

M107 self-propelled gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The M107 suffered from a short barrel life, much like the L/58 155mm that was canceled this year. Also, the accuracy was considered to be inadequate by the standards of the Vietnam War. The rate of fire was also abysmal. Israel had better luck, but there again they purchased improved, longer range shells from Gerald Bull. Did Greece? Considering that Greece had a dozen or so M107s after the rest were converted to long barrel M110A2s, I would assume they had replacement 175mm barrels. Still, the cost of moving a "huge" stockpile of 175mm shells makes very little sense with so few potential firing units. Unless they have the barrels and ability to convert M110A2s back into M107s?

There should be a useful number of M110A2 units available but I have my doubts about the relative merits in counterbattery fire with such a slow setup and cumbersome loading. Gerald Bull worked on a 203mm(210mm?), gun for Iraq and possibly China, but I'm not aware of any modern shells available for the M110A2. Considering the outsized logistical and personal requirements for obsolete 175mm/203mm guns, is this really going to help or hinder the war effort?

On the other hand, who can pass up WWII 40mm Bofors ammunition? Not compatible with the post-WWII 40mm L/70s the Netherlands gave then but I'm sure that someone has a few 40mm L/60s laying around? Back in 1991, the Canadian Navy had to borrow a few from a museum.

 

[Forest Green]

On the other hand, who can pass up WWII 40mm Bofors ammunition? Not compatible with the post-WWII 40mm L/70s the Netherlands gave then but I'm sure that someone has a few 40mm L/60s laying around? Back in 1991, the Canadian Navy had to borrow a few from a museum.

I think a lot of L/60s were recently taken out of AC-130s.

 

[TinWing]

I think a lot of L/60s were recently taken out of AC-130s.

And what would you use for mountings?

 

[Forest Green]

Whatever is available.

 

[Firefinder]

The M107 suffered from a short barrel life, much like the L/58 155mm that was canceled this year. Also, the accuracy was considered to be inadequate by the standards of the Vietnam War. The rate of fire was also abysmal.

The M107 actually had a longer useful barrel life the M1299 by over 300 full power shots.

It was design and MADE over 1200 routinely when it had a properly made barrel. Issue it had was the few batches of barrels wasnt properly made, and suffer from stress fractures forcing the army to cut the shots from the 1200 to 500 to be safe. That was since the first few batches got mix up enough, which is common, that no one could reliably say if a barrel was good or not without an long and torturous inspection.

The New and improve M113A1 barrels, yes they use the same number for the APC, was made with a new improve set up that fixed the issues and was fully allow the 1200 shots in mid 1968 or 69. The new Barrel was also slightly thicker and stiffer giving it better accuracy due to reducing the barrel whip. In Nam with new barrels it was consider good for plastering most targets and was considerably faster then its battery mate the M110 203mms, with most units reporting 3 shots a minute average compare to the 203 1.5 per minute and books 2. Which is generally how its goes, the line crews who use it alot find ways to use it the most efficient and in 10 years or so the Army updates the books to reflect it.

But it was an painful piece to use due to its long barrel making driving FUN plus the new shells for the 203mm M110s gave those guns damn near the exact same range rendering it redundant and in 1977 a year before it was retired, in 1978, the program which became the M270 started with that coming online in 1983. Throw in that by 1967 it reputation was so low it was mining its way through the bedrock due to killing like 50 men in barrel explosions due to the before mention bad barrels...

 

[jsport]

The M107 actually had a longer useful barrel life the M1299 by over 300 full power shots.

It was design and MADE over 1200 routinely when it had a properly made barrel. Issue it had was the few batches of barrels wasnt properly made, and suffer from stress fractures forcing the army to cut the shots from the 1200 to 500 to be safe. That was since the first few batches got mix up enough, which is common, that no one could reliably say if a barrel was good or not without an long and torturous inspection.

The New and improve M113A1 barrels, yes they use the same number for the APC, was made with a new improve set up that fixed the issues and was fully allow the 1200 shots in mid 1968 or 69. The new Barrel was also slightly thicker and stiffer giving it better accuracy due to reducing the barrel whip. In Nam with new barrels it was consider good for plastering most targets and was considerably faster then its battery mate the M110 203mms, with most units reporting 3 shots a minute average compare to the 203 1.5 per minute and books 2. Which is generally how its goes, the line crews who use it alot find ways to use it the most efficient and in 10 years or so the Army updates the books to reflect it.

But it was an painful piece to use due to its long barrel making driving FUN plus the new shells for the 203mm M110s gave those guns damn near the exact same range rendering it redundant and in 1977 a year before it was retired, in 1978, the program which became the M270 started with that coming online in 1983. Throw in that by 1967 it reputation was so low it was mining its way through the bedrock due to killing like 50 men in barrel explosions due to the before mention bad barrels...

Wow, thank you Firefinder for the background. Sounds like M110 brought much grief...More like some collective incompetence and ensuing bad standing. Given next generation energetics (propellant & explosive) 175mm may deserve a 2nd look over 203mm an even over 155mm if new capabilities such boost glide rds are to be introduced ie the tyranny of range and reduced logistics as well as high cost of missiles.

 

[Firefinder]

More like some collective incompetence

Less incompetence and more teething issues.

The OG M113 barrels for the M107 was design and use new manufacturing tricks to get that Life.

Like Brand New Tricks and they didn't exactly find all the devil details before they went full time with it.

And the one that cause the explosions was in the category of HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT WOR-Oh thats in both mechanism and newness.

So really strange interaction between the metals use, heat treatment and work hardening irc.

 

[jsport]

Given the cost-benefit of long range guns, the abandoning them is at one's own risk, and the assumption that potential adversaries have abandoned them is folly.

 

[Josh_TN]

Given the cost-benefit of long range guns, the abandoning them is at one's own risk, and the assumption that potential adversaries have abandoned them is folly.

Long range is of little use without accuracy. There is a reason 175mm was created by the U.S. and then dropped. It had the desired range for counter battery but not sufficient accuracy. It’s fine if you want several hunmeters of dispersion. Not clear to me what role that weapon would have in the current war outside terror bombings.

 

[jsport]

unguided rounds are remnants of the past.

 

[jsport]

Greece to Become Big Source of Replacement Shells in $1.9 Billion Czech Ammo Plan for Ukraine

Europe and the US have huge plans for future production, but the critical bit is that it will be at least a month before emergency buys like this Greek ammo reach Kyiv’s gunners in quantity.

www.kyivpost.com

The iEidiseis reports that Greek ammo dumps contain 175mm shells in “huge quantities” and that the munition would become part of the ammunition delivery to Ukraine, the report says.

According to the Netherlands-based tracking site Oryx, Ukraine has never received artillery systems capable of firing the American 1960s-era 175mm heavy shell. The iEidiseis report said that “a small number of 175mm cannon remain in service” in the Greek military, but “many systems require maintenance.”

for TomS

 

[TomS]

for TomS

Yes, notice no reports of Ukraine getting 175mm guns. Just shells, which I suspect might be used as USV or heavy UAS warheads rather than being delivered by artillery.

 

[Forest Green]

Yes, notice no reports of Ukraine getting 175mm guns. Just shells, which I suspect might be used as USV or heavy UAS warheads rather than being delivered by artillery.

And that will be very effective too. Need to be a fairly sturdy drone though - they weigh 147lb.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

It's going to be a pretty big drone to carry such a shell, I don't understand how a UAV that large and cumbersome (assuming said drone is at the limits of its load carrying ability) won't be a target for just about anything that can shoot upwards. I think 175mm guns to shoot those shells would probably be preferable, but those aren't all that common and I assume the Greeks and whoever else still use the M107 plan on keeping them in service for some time longer.

The US Army looking back to the 175mm caliber as a starting point for a very long-range self-propelled gun might have been a better starting point than the latest cancelled effort 155mm ERCA. But the US Army will probably just keep going in the same stupid cycle they've been repeating for decades regarding new field artillery.

 

[Josh_TN]

IIRC the 175mm was not especially accurate at longer ranges, at less not for counter battery of SPHs. 155mm has the advantage of a lot of production and standardization. The ERCA just got a little too ambitious; there are plenty of 52 caliber 155mm with very healthy ranges. Base bleed and RAP can push that out and GPS kits can correct for the latter’s lack of accuracy. Eventually sabotaged and solid ramjets likely provide extreme range.

Obviously none of this applies to Ukraine and I cannot imagine what they are using 175mm for.

 

[jsport]

I cannot imagine what they are using 175mm for.

Agree, explosives of almost any type are readily made by the Ukrainians. Use on USVs or UAS seems implausible/impractical.

43rd Artillery Brigade Hints at Receiving Additional Shells for 2S7 Pion Cannon and More | Defense Express

How can such a signal be explained, and what types of shells could it be

en.defence-ua.com

However, the option of receiving additional ammunition for the 2S7 Pionself-propelled 203 mm cannon cannot be ruled out either. There have already been cases when Ukrainian artillerymen had 203-mm shells from very "exotic" sources of supply.

For instance, in January 2023, the Defense Forces of Ukraine used 203-mm 53-G-620-Sh bunker-buster munitions for the B-4 howitzers from the WWII era to fire from the 2S7 Pion self-propelled cannon.

According to one version, such shells could have been provided by Albania from its own stocks. And in June of that year, Ukrainian artillerymen could receive American M106 artillery munitions for the M110 self-propelled howitzer.

 

[Firefinder]

theres is qlso the Idea of rebarreling their 2s7 Pion to 175mm from 203s.

Ukraine did just set up a barrel factory and the 175mm wree faster to produce then a similar 50 to 66 caliber 203s.

Or you could Sabot the 175mm to fit in 203s which will give them more ammo and range.

Plus it be easy as hell to make a PGK style guidemce kit for it as well.

 

[Josh_TN]

If existing 203mm fits, I do not see the need or use case for sabots or rebarrels. The only thing that would make sense is if there were also a source of 175mm barrels, and Puon was being used with these. That would take the strain off 203mm barrel production/purchases/donations, and that is a pretty rare caliber now adays.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

IIRC the 175mm was not especially accurate at longer ranges, at less not for counter battery of SPHs. 155mm has the advantage of a lot of production and standardization. The ERCA just got a little too ambitious; there are plenty of 52 caliber 155mm with very healthy ranges. Base bleed and RAP can push that out and GPS kits can correct for the latter’s lack of accuracy. Eventually sabotaged and solid ramjets likely provide extreme range.

Obviously none of this applies to Ukraine and I cannot imagine what they are using 175mm for.

With GPS/INS though doesn't that make up for a lot of the dispersion suffered at extreme ranges? I was just speculating what might have been a better start point for their ambitious target ranges.

There is certainly room for improvement to the Army's 155mm guns. As you said most of the rest of the world is using 52-caliber length 155mm guns, and I think the XM2001 Crusader had one a bit longer than that but still wasn't excessively burning out barrels. It sounds like ERCA testing revealed the same problems they had when they first toyed with the 58-caliber barrel and very-supercharged shells back in the late '80s. I'm not sure what improvements they expected to make things different this time. The rational thing for the Army to do would be to move to a 52-caliber length gun and incorporate other improvements for a respectable improvement in range, rate of fire, etc. Yet considering their prior record they're more likely to keep rebuilding the M109 with only automotive and FCS improvements while trying for some goal that is too ambitious.

 

[jsport]

Agree, explosives of almost any type are readily made by the Ukrainians. Use on USVs or UAS seems implausible/impractical.

43rd Artillery Brigade Hints at Receiving Additional Shells for 2S7 Pion Cannon and More | Defense Express

How can such a signal be explained, and what types of shells could it be

en.defence-ua.com

However, the option of receiving additional ammunition for the 2S7 Pionself-propelled 203 mm cannon cannot be ruled out either. There have already been cases when Ukrainian artillerymen had 203-mm shells from very "exotic" sources of supply.

For instance, in January 2023, the Defense Forces of Ukraine used 203-mm 53-G-620-Sh bunker-buster munitions for the B-4 howitzers from the WWII era to fire from the 2S7 Pion self-propelled cannon.

According to one version, such shells could have been provided by Albania from its own stocks. And in June of that year, Ukrainian artillerymen could receive American M106 artillery munitions for the M110 self-propelled howitzer.

Please see above again. Not all capabilities are listed on the internet.

Transport of old munitions for disassembly is costly and logistically difficult when the Ukrs can and do ready make explosives at the most local tactical level.

 

[Firefinder]

If existing 203mm fits, I do not see the need or use case for sabots or rebarrels. The only thing that would make sense is if there were also a source of 175mm barrels, and Puon was being used with these. That would take the strain off 203mm barrel production/purchases/donations, and that is a pretty rare caliber now adays.

You might by right for Rebarreling but not for Saboting.

Saboting old 175mm shells to fit in 203s, will add a decent amount of munitions for the 203s use. Ammunition is the big short far of Artillery for Ukriane at the moment, not the barrels even for the 203mms.

Remember most artillery barrels had over 2000 shots of life for it these days.

So anything to give them more ammo will be liked.