Naval Gun Projects

[Tzoli]

Krupp built 508mm cannons by 1918?

 

[Bottleship]

Krupp built 508mm cannons by 1918?

Maybe.
I already know what you're thinking - a model of a battleship with eight 508 mm cannons
But most likely these are coastal guns.

 

[Tzoli]

Question is what is the source of the book for these guns?

 

[Tzoli]

Naah but the calibre choice is weird knowing the Germans preferred different calibres:
281,305,380,420mm I would expect 460 or 480 then 500 or 520mm

 

[Bottleship]

Question is what is the source of the book for these guns?

It's difficult to say how reliable this is.
In Soviet publications, in data on the Second Reich, the production plan was often written as actual production - this was the case, for example, with machine guns (allegedly by the spring of 1916, the Germans had already produced more than 100 thousand machine guns since the beginning of the war, although in fact this was not implemented, and to in the spring of 1916, about 20 thousand of them were produced since the beginning of the war), or, with tanks (the Second Reich allegedly had a “tank industry” on a par with France, Britain and the USA, although in reality the Reich only planned to organize the production of tanks in 1919, and actually produced 20 A7V and several prototype vehicles), in addition, calculations of guns allegedly produced in the Reich during the war years in Soviet statistics often include the production of mortars and / or repair of guns. What was this connected with? - of course, with politics, according to Soviet ideology, Russia before the communists was a backward feudal state, while other powers were advanced capitalist, accordingly, it was necessary to show the superiority of the Reich and other capitalist powers over the backward Russian Empire (after the revolution there were similar manipulations, only in reverse side to show the advantage of Soviet socialism over backward capitalism). It is possible that these 457 and 508 mm guns were projects and were never manufactured, but, against the backdrop of stories that Russia “could not even manufacture 14-inch guns,” this, of course, looks impressive. Of course, they preferred not to remember that the communists disposed of unfinished 16-inch naval guns and 16-inch siege howitzers after the revolution. And, by the way, almost all Soviet data on the growth of production during the “Stalin's industrialization” of 1929-1941 are speculative, they underestimated production in the Russian Empire by several times in order to look better, but many researchers are still uncritical of these figures.

 

[Dilandu]

Naah but the calibre choice is weird knowing the Germans preferred different calibres:
281,305,380,420mm I would expect 460 or 480 then 500 or 520mm

Most likely the original data was in inches, and it was merely translated into millimeters.

 

[RP1]

I'm (mostly) sure I haven't posted this before. This is an item from an old databook used for a teaching exercise. All the other systems in the databook are either real, or things that were later cancelled (like boxed Ikara), just with the names filed off. So what is the real world or project equivalent to this? It is quoted as being a 1200 with 40 rpm ROF. The funny twin magazine seems familiar, but I can't quite place it?

 

[Scott Kenny]

I'm (mostly) sure I haven't posted this before. This is an item from an old databook used for a teaching exercise. All the other systems in the databook are either real, or things that were later cancelled (like boxed Ikara), just with the names filed off. So what is the real world or project equivalent to this? It is quoted as being a 1200 with 40 rpm ROF. The funny twin magazine seems familiar, but I can't quite place it?

Green Mace?

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

I'm (mostly) sure I haven't posted this before. This is an item from an old databook used for a teaching exercise. All the other systems in the databook are either real, or things that were later cancelled (like boxed Ikara), just with the names filed off. So what is the real world or project equivalent to this? It is quoted as being a 1200 with 40 rpm ROF. The funny twin magazine seems familiar, but I can't quite place it?

This mounting?

 

[TomS]

This mounting?

View attachment 720150

ANd where is that from? It's not the TAK120 that I'm familiar with.

 

[RP1]

This mounting?

View attachment 720150

ooooo... so that one is in the book as "120mm Mk1" and the one I posted is the Mk2!

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

ANd where is that from? It's not the TAK120 that I'm familiar with.

ooooo... so that one is in the book as "120mm Mk1" and the one I posted is the Mk2!

It was posted in this thread. Apparently a late 1950s Bofors design, although the original post says it had a rate-of-fire of 70rpm.

 

[TinWing]

It was posted in this thread. Apparently a late 1950s Bofors design, although the original post says it had a rate-of-fire of 70rpm.

Confusingly, I’ve read that the little known single 120mm L50 was designed by Bofors for the early West German Navy for a larger class of destroyers that was cancelled in favor of smaller ships with 100mm French guns.

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

I was wondering if there were some post ww2 plans (studies, concepts or even full designed guns) for naval applications of the 88 mm caliber , especially for surface ships? With its caliber right in between the US/Italian 76 mm (3''), French 100 mm (3,9'') or UK's 113 mm (4.5'') it would have been a powerful but still light naval cannon for the '50's - '60's.

 

[TomS]

I was wondering if there were some post ww2 plans for naval applications of the 88 mm caliber , especially for surface ships? With its caliber right in between the US/Italian 76 mm (3''), French 100 mm (3,9'') or UK's 113 mm (4.5'') it would have been a powerful but still light naval cannon for the '50's - '60's.

I've never seen one. Can't imagine who would have been interested, since it had never been a very popular naval caliber, even with the Germans.

If there had been interest in an intermediate, surely 90mm would have made more sense in the West, since the US had a very good gun and ammunition family already. But 100mm was probably the smallest caliber truly viable for shore bombardment (4.5-inch or 5-inch being much better) and 76mm was perfectly adequate for AAW and FAC-busting ASuW (especially in the fast-firing, high-velocity versions that came about in the 1950s and 1960s).

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Video on the US Navy BuOrd's 1970s Gun Improvement Program:

Mainly concerns the 5"/54 Mark 42 Mod 10, improved fire control by adding new systems to the Mk 68 fire control system, improved types of ammunition, including laser-guided, and briefly mentions a proposed follow-on to the 8-inch Mk 71:

View: https://youtu.be/Sd9lNJFF0uo?feature=shared

 

[Scott Kenny]

At ~3:30 in that video, it looks like a FRAM can has the Mk13 launcher in place of the aft gun. Am I seeing that correctly?

And if so, was that just for testing, or were more FRAM cans converted that way?

 

[TomS]

At ~3:30 in that video, it looks like a FRAM can has the Mk13 launcher in place of the aft gun. Am I seeing that correctly?

And if so, was that just for testing, or were more FRAM cans converted that way?

It's not a FRAM; the guns are definitely 5"/54 Mk 42s. I believe it's a C.F. Adams, somewhere after DDG-14. (-15 and later have the Mk 13 instead of Mk 11)

 

[that_person]

That’s definitely an Adams

 

[TomS]

It's not a FRAM; the guns are definitely 5"/54 Mk 42s. I believe it's a C.F. Adams, somewhere after DDG-14. (-15 and later have the Mk 13 instead of Mk 11)

Further to this, I think there was only one Gearing missile conversion for the USN, USS Gyatt (DDG-1). But she was a Terrier ship, an exercise in just how small a Terrier ship could be. She fairly quickly lost the missiles and became a general test and training platform.

 

[Voltzz]

The SEM-30 (Signaal-Emmerson-Mauser) was a CIWS investigated by the Netherlands for Goalkeeper that used 4 Mauser 30mm guns. It lost out to the GAU-8 solution (SGE-30) on grounds of accuracy and fire rate:

During the Assist investigation, various combinations of sensors, fire-control systems and weapons were evaluated. The easiest task, according to Signaal, was to select the radar and fire-control system.
The choice of weapon proved more difficult. Studies had shown that a gun with a calibre of at least 30mm and a high rate of fire was necessary. A twin 35mm mount was investigated at first but was found to have an insufficient firing rate: analysis had shown that a rate of at least 3,000 rounds/min, coupled with a very low dispersion, would be needed to counter the projected threat from supersonic missiles.
The second concept, designated SEM-30, was based on an Emerson Electric mount carrying four Mauser 30mm single-barrelled cannon. Problems of focussing the barrels to a single optimised aiming point, together with the relatively low MRBF (mean rounds between failure) of reciprocating guns, were however foreseen for this solution. In addition, further analysis had revealed that a firing rate even higher than 3,000 rounds/min was desirable against a manoeuvring target.
Signaal and the RNeth N therefore selected the General Electric GAU-8/A seven-barrel 30mm Gatling as the best overall weapon
for Goalkeeper, and this combination was designated SGE-30. The GAU-8/A has the advantages of a 4,200 rounds/min firing rate combined with low dispersion and high reliability.

IDR 10/1983

SEM-30 is designed to 'kill' target missiles by direct hit, having a design dispersion of only 1.5 mrad. Each rigidly-mounted barrel fires at a rate of 800 rpm and a muzzle velocity of 1,400 m/sec. Mount elevation and azimuth training velocities are 80°/sec and
100°/sec, respectively, and accelerations in these axes are 125°/sec² and 200°/sec². Weight of mount is 5,416 kg and system weight totals 7,463 kg.

IDR 6/1978

 

[1635yankee]

Most likely the original data was in inches, and it was merely translated into millimeters.

If it was, it may have been in one of the obsolete German zoll, which were 1/10, 1/11 or 1/12 of the various German feet (Fuß). The one used in Berlin was about 313.9 mm (from the potentially dubious https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_units_of_measurement). The length of the German zoll could be something between 19.7 mm and 48 mm.

It's not surprising that the German Empire went metric shortly after unification.

 

[Voltzz]

From RINA's "The Naval Architect" November 1983, review of RNEE 1983:

• Vickers "Sea Dragon" CIWS.
• GAU-8A based system
• Project started in 1972, but not publicly announced until 1982
• Ericsson Giraffe C-band radar for detection (separate unit)
• On-mount tracking radar same as in the LWSW proposals - Marconi set (VFM-30?)
• Ferranti processing equipment
• Jokingly suggested that system designator of "GBG-30" means "Great British Gun"
• Mounting similar to Goalkeeper, without E/O and surveillance radars, and with slightly larger FCR

-RP1

 

[Voltzz]

Also in a thread from 2012 on whatifmodellers.com someone linked to some resources on the Sea Dragon on the site of The Dock Museum Barrow-in-Furness. The link unfortunately doesnt work any more and isnt archived, and a short search of the site also didnt turn anything up.
The Vickers Photographic Archive on the same site may however be of interest to some people on this forum.

 

[Voltzz]

Two more EX-83/Sea Vulcan 30 based CIWSs:
The Sagem SAMOS and the Thomson CSF SATAN
Samos used a mounted optical fire control system, while Satan had a separate fire control radar.
Samos could also have 4 MANPADs installed.

 

[Voltzz]

From IDR 1/1991:

The Naval Systems Division of FMC Corporation has recently received a $4.6 million contract to design, develop, fabricate and test an Electrothermal (ET) gun/autoloader mounted on a Mk 15 Phalanx trunnion assembly. The 60mm gun will fire a 3.5kg smart munition at 1.0km/s muzzle velocity.

 

[Forest Green]

The Time Germany Grafted An Army Howitzer Turret Onto A Frigate

The bizarre-looking modification installed the turret of a PzH 2000 self-propelled howitzer onto the frigate Hamburg. The bizarre-looking modification grafted the turret of a PzH 2000 self-propelled howitzer onto the frigate Hamburg.

www.twz.com

 

[TomS]

The Time Germany Grafted An Army Howitzer Turret Onto A Frigate

The bizarre-looking modification installed the turret of a PzH 2000 self-propelled howitzer onto the frigate Hamburg. The bizarre-looking modification grafted the turret of a PzH 2000 self-propelled howitzer onto the frigate Hamburg.

www.twz.com

Search for MONARC and you'll see this has been mentioned quite a few times. This article could have been written using the info already on this site (and may well have been).

 

[A_Random_Guy]

Does anyone have information on the free swinging 35mm single gun that the U.S. was looking into after WW2? I've seen it pop up time to time (in Norman Friedman's books and on some of the early postwar U.S. notional ship designs) but haven't seen anything more definative.

Beyond that I know there were some improvised 30mm free swinging mounts (see picture) made by the Germans using modified aircraft cannons so the idea of a free swinging 35mm gun isn't completely out there but there's just not much on the project from what I've been able to find.