More russian weapons sales after 1991

[Monk78]

Regarding the MiG-29, my understanding from indian accounts is that they trounced their Mirages-2000/RDM in every respect INCLUDING radar performance when they tested them against eachother in the late 1980s. So the F-16s would have been eaten alive indeed in the pre AMRAAM era, just because the MiG-29 could shoot first BVR, and while the F-16 would be sweating to defend the MiG could approach unmolested and attack with R-73s from a favourable position.

Not to mention primary role of f16 would be air to ground further degrading their abilities

 

[Monk78]

The MiG-31 is top notch even today and grudgingly acknowledged even in the west, with their long range radars and R-37 and R-77 missiles, sitting high-up and looking for any movement, then lobbing R-37s from over 200 km away.

Considering how much of a handful the older MiG-25 was for the americans over Iraq, the much more capable MiG-31 would have been that much more of a headache against any opposition, even AMRAAM equipped, nevermind SARH ones.

Iraq had 20 MiG-25 in 1991

USSR had 300 MiG-25PD/PDS by end of 1982 with 20- 30 MiG-31 or so
Just for perspective

 

[Pioneer]

Unfortunately for the MiG, they opted to make 'Soviet F-18' instead of 'Soviet F-16' or 'Soviet Mirage 2000' in the 1970s.

Yeah, I'll pay that tomo pauk. Something more akin to MiG's Izdeljie 33 LFI (not too be confused with MiG-33!), with it's single engine configuration. Given that many former Soviet client states operated and needed to replace their MiG-21 and MiG-23's, one would think a single-engine design would be more enticing and practical in terms of purchase and operational costs.
But it needs FBW incorporated in its design from the getgo.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[paralay]

Mikhail Poghosyan, the creator of the Su-47, in the early 2000s believed that Russian engines were not reliable enough for a single-engine aircraft. The fact that the Chinese successfully fly the J-10 and JF-17 with Russian engines for some reason did not bother him.

 

[Pioneer]

Mikhail Poghosyan, the creator of the Su-47, in the early 2000s believed that Russian engines were not reliable enough for a single-engine aircraft. The fact that the Chinese successfully fly the J-10 and JF-17 with Russian engines for some reason did not bother him.

Thanks paralay for your valid point. An interesting point you make about Chinese willing application.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[lancer21]

Something that puzzles me a bit, earlier i suggested it would have been a good idea to fit the AM-23 cannon on the gunless interceptors such as Su-9 and Su-11 etc. However i can't seem to find examples of experimental soviet fighters/interceptors fitted with this cannon in a normal installation, apart from the MiG-17SN with it's movable installation. You'd think some 1950s prototypes could have had AM-23s instead of NR-23s.

Was there something inherent to it's design that preclued it's use in a fixed installation on a fighter, or i'm reading too much into it?

Unless my memory is wrong, i think i might have read in the past about some Mikoyan prototype having AM-23s (not the MiG-17SN), but i can't recall now which one it was.

 

[Monk78]

Something that puzzles me a bit, earlier i suggested it would have been a good idea to fit the AM-23 cannon on the gunless interceptors such as Su-9 and Su-11 etc. However i can't seem to find examples of experimental soviet fighters/interceptors fitted with this cannon in a normal installation, apart from the MiG-17SN with it's movable installation. You'd think some 1950s prototypes could have had AM-23s instead of NR-23s.

Was there something inherent to it's design that preclued it's use in a fixed installation on a fighter, or i'm reading too much into it?

Unless my memory is wrong, i think i might have read in the past about some Mikoyan prototype having AM-23s (not the MiG-17SN), but i can't recall now which one it was.

Isn’t the Am-23 turret too big for a fighter aircraft?

 

[lancer21]

I wasn't thinking of using a turret, god forbid. Just the AM-23 gun in a normal instalation in the wingroots.

 

[Monk78]

In 1991 there are 1000 + su17/ mig27 available
Russians could have sold them for dirt cheap prices
Same goes for su15TM relatively modern fighter

 

[Scott Kenny]

The MiG-31 is top notch even today and grudgingly acknowledged even in the west, with their long range radars and R-37 and R-77 missiles, sitting high-up and looking for any movement, then lobbing R-37s from over 200 km away.

Considering how much of a handful the older MiG-25 was for the americans over Iraq, the much more capable MiG-31 would have been that much more of a headache against any opposition, even AMRAAM equipped, nevermind SARH ones.

I think the only real contest against the MiG31 would be the Tomcat/Phoenix combo, or F-22/AMRAAM.

Tomcats able to shoot back or maybe shoot first (depending on who's range specs you believe), Raptors being able to get within AMRAAM range before the MiG31s could get a radar lock.

 

[lancer21]

In 1991 there are 1000 + su17/ mig27 available
Russians could have sold them for dirt cheap prices
Same goes for su15TM relatively modern fighter

I recall reading in a paper on the RuAF found online that in about 1992 the russians planned a sort of auction or fire sale for 1600 or so surplus aircraft, presumably mostly later model MiG-23/27, Su-17, MiG-25, Su-15 and early model Su-24 etc., maybe even bombers, though perhaps there could have been a few of the oldest of the modern types too like MiG-29/31, Su-27/25/24M etc.

I can't recall now the price for each, iirc between 100k and 500k (or maybe that was the starting price), but if this went ahead everybody and their dog (read, countries that otherwise couldn't afford or couldn't officially get the new stuff, mainly Iraq, Libya, DPRK, Iran, maybe Yugoslavia as well as various other african, asian and latin-american countries) could have bought pretty modern and capable planes to augment their air forces and/or replace the oldest types in their inventories, while the russians would have made much needed cash from planes that would have been scrapped anyway, and the repair/refurbishing plants would have had plenty of work for years to come getting all these planes ready.

But of course the americans found out and went nuts, so they had that drunkard Yelsin cancel the whole thing.

 

[lancer21]

I think the only real contest against the MiG31 would be the Tomcat/Phoenix combo, or F-22/AMRAAM.

Tomcats able to shoot back or maybe shoot first (depending on who's range specs you believe), Raptors being able to get within AMRAAM range before the MiG31s could get a radar lock.

I would think the russians spent the last 30 years figuring how to kill the F-22, so a MiG-31BM with the newer modernized radars and R-37 missiles (and indeed other R-37 capable fighters like Su-35 etc.) would be a lot more of a handful for the F-22/AMRAAM combo that the american propaganda would want one to believe.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I would think the russians spent the last 30 years figuring how to kill the F-22, so a MiG-31BM with the newer modernized radars and R-37 missiles (and indeed other R-37 capable fighters like Su-35 etc.) would be a lot more of a handful for the F-22/AMRAAM combo that the american propaganda would want one to believe.

Oh, sure, now they probably have a way.

But just after the Collapse? And even up to about 2005? Not likely!

 

[lancer21]

Oh, sure, now they probably have a way.

But just after the Collapse? And even up to about 2005? Not likely!

The F-22 wasn't operational until 2005, so that capability wasn't really required anyway until then. Meanwhile the basic MiG-31B with R-33/33S would have been a handful for any AMRAAM teen, just by it's PESA radar and longer range AAMs. Which is probably why the americans always went to great lengths to pressure Russia not selling MiG-31 to countries interested (China, Iran, Syria etc.)

It is true that for about a decade after that the russians didn't really have a counter until the MiG-31BM, Su-35, R-77/74 and R-37 (plus advanced SAMs) entered significant service, but of course now that time is long passed.

On the other hand, technologically speaking without the lost decade, or rather the lost 15 years after the collapse which practically froze RuAF's capability increase (as opposed to exports), the MiG-31M, Su-27M, MiG-29M, or even a series MFI would have brought forward advanced radars/electronics/airframes and R-77, 37, 74 etc. missiles a decade or more earlier than OTL.

 

[Monk78]

Ultimately, what put Sukhoi on a path to success was India shelling out the money for a mass order of the Su-30MKI, a true next-generation variant that Sukhoi leveraged to further sales (most Su-30 variants are based on the MKI) and also just plain made them a lot of money off of directly.

So why them instead of Mikoyan? Well, I suspect Sukhoi had a better marketing team. Sukhoi had also had more opportunity to put in design work towards advanced Flanker variants. But also, the Flanker fit the open niches in the international market better than the Fulcrum. The MiG-29, as a middleweight, was competing directly not only with the likes of the Mirage 2000, F-16, and F/A-18 (and later the Eurocanards and F-35) but also against the masses of older single-engine fighters. The Flanker, meanwhile, stood alone as the only heavyweight that could compete with the F-15 on the market, making it attractive for anyone not looking to align themselves with the United States. That's not to say the MiG-29 hasn't sold, but there hasn't been much interest in heavily upgraded variants and no big money-making orders to fund the upgrades themselves.

Your list of prospective customers kind of illustrates the problem: plenty of small orders, but ultimately that looks like only enough new sales to clear out the extra feedstock early. Syria and Libya sure as hell aren't going to be able to fund a next-gen Fulcrum. A lot, I think, depends on what kind of plane Iran wants.

Now, maybe these extra sales do get the MFI flying, but without a launch customer that plane is still dead on arrival. The Russians don't have the dosh; China would, but by the time the MFI is flying there's a rock fight ongoing between the two over the Su-27/J-11 sales; and India I don't think would be able to fund it on their own.

To add this point further I feel like mig29 9.12 it’s just a specialized as the , SU 15 but just a different kind of specialization
Where potentially it could have done very well would have been against Pakistan and Israel ,
In the former case there was no large scale war, and in the latter case they were equipped with the formidable F 15 for which the fulcrums were not designed to combat.
This plus the rapid proliferation of the AIM120 in late 90s really killed the fulcrum as it’s major selling point was a close in fighter

 

[uk 75]

The Yeltsin coup against Gorbachev does not get the coverage that the failed military coup has.
Had Gorbachev held on to power in 1991 and maintained a version of the Soviet Union without the Baltics, Belarus and Ukraine, the history of Russia might have been very different.
Gorbachev had a close working relationship with western leaders but unlike Yeltsin knew where Russia's interests lay.
The wholesale dismantling of the armed forces and defence industry could have been avoided. Some retrenchment after the withdrawal of forces from abroad would have been necessary.
Gorbachev saw the CSCE as being the organisation which would take over from the Warsaw Pact and NATO. He never intended to give NATO a free hand.
The Yugoslav crisis would have been the first test of Gorbachev's ideas for common security in Europe
A Gorbachev led Russia would have been very different from Yeltsin's

 

[Arjen]

I quite clearly remember the ugliness that accompanied Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania gaining independence from what remained of the Soviet Union in 1989 - 1991. Ministries and TV stations were shot at, people were killed, that didn't stop the drive to independence. Eastern European nations witnessed the events from up close, and drew their conclusions. I very much doubt CSCE as Warsaw Pact successor would have had any Eastern European members that were not part of the Soviet Union before.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I quite clearly remember the ugliness that accompanied Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania gaining independence from what remained of the Soviet Union in 1989 - 1991. Ministries and TV stations were shot at, people were killed, that didn't stop the drive to independence. Eastern European nations witnessed the events from up close, and drew their conclusions. I very much doubt CSCE as Warsaw Pact successor would have had any Eastern European members that were not part of the Soviet Union before.

Hence my typical description of the "new NATO" countries as "would sooner be a radioactive glass crater than a Soviet client slave state again"

 

[uk 75]

I agree that former members of the Warsaw Pact and the Baltic States had no wish to be controled by Russia in any form.
Unfortunately in 1991 events in the Middle East shifted the focus of Western military activity from Europe.
I dont think the break up of Yugoslavia would have happened if Gorbachev had still been in charge in Moscow.
It was the war in Yugoslavia that gave NATO a new lease of life and allowed it to accept new members.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Regarding the MiG-29, my understanding from indian accounts is that they trounced their Mirages-2000/RDM in every respect INCLUDING radar performance when they tested them against eachother in the late 1980s. So the F-16s would have been eaten alive indeed in the pre AMRAAM era, just because the MiG-29 could shoot first BVR, and while the F-16 would be sweating to defend the MiG could approach unmolested and attack with R-73s from a favourable position.

RDM was a stopgap minor upgrade to the rather underwhelming Cyrano IV radar of the Mirage F1. Very much a previous generation to AN-APG-66 let alone AN/APG-68.

French radars didn't get interesting until RDI.

 

[lancer21]

RDM was a stopgap minor upgrade to the rather underwhelming Cyrano IV radar of the Mirage F1. Very much a previous generation to AN-APG-66 let alone AN/APG-68.

French radars didn't get interesting until RDI.

Out of curiousity, was the RDI/Super-530D combo better than the basic N-019/R-27 combo?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Out of curiousity, was the RDI/Super-530D combo better than the basic N-019/R-27 combo?

RDI was technically more advanced overall, Super 530D was considered equal to AIM-7M, overall a bit better. RDM + Super 530F, worse.

 

[Jemiba]

Just a friendly reminder, the topic are Russian weapons sales, not the way, Russia developed after Glasnost, or
what former Soviet republics did. Certainly related to the original topic, but this way, we'll soon be discussing,
what the last Tsar could have done ....

 

[Monk78]

What about naval vessels ? Lots of surplus platforms
Esp kresta II and tango class submarines
Relatively recently built, reasonably capable, but not really required in the post cold war world

 

[Scott Kenny]

What about naval vessels ? Lots of surplus platforms
Esp kresta II and tango class submarines
Relatively recently built, reasonably capable, but not really required in the post cold war world

The last Kresta-2 was built in 1977, would have been 14 years old at the Fall. I suspect that they were too expensive for anyone not the Soviet Navy or USN to operate.

Tango-class had great battery capacity, but the hull shape was 1950s. The Kilo-class was much better for getting sales.

 

[Monk78]

The last Kresta-2 was built in 1977, would have been 14 years old at the Fall. I suspect that they were too expensive for anyone not the Soviet Navy or USN to operate.

Tango-class had great battery capacity, but the hull shape was 1950s. The Kilo-class was much better for getting sales.

What about Indian navy ? Esp if fitted with some dual AshM and ASW missiles