Mizuno projects
- Thread starter Jemiba
- Start date
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
- Joined
- 31 May 2007
- Messages
- 8,600
- Reaction score
- 6,861
A first half of 1945, the IJN submitted the required specification for special attack rocket propulsion-type antitank glider to the Yokosho.
This glider was planned to discharge from a coastal base or cave, and to carry out the direct attack to the LCA (landing craft) of the Allies, or the M4 Sherman tank after landing, etc.
Mizuno was selected to design and development this glider, the first prototype of this glider named “Shinryu(神龍, the god dragon)” was completed in May, 1945.
Almost all the parts of the Shinryu were wooden, carry a 100-kg bomb, and had three small sets of rokets which discharged the Shinryu. The first test flight was performed in July, 1945.
Although the performance of a prototype was unstable, production was started and five-sets prototypes were under manufacture at the time of the end of the war in August, 1945.
By losing "Shinryu" confidential documents, the use of this glider became uncertain.
But, several photographs of a prototype were exhibited by the Yokaren (予科練, the Japanese Naval Aviation Preparatory School) student pilot of those days who survived, That whole aspect became clear.
This glider was planned to discharge from a coastal base or cave, and to carry out the direct attack to the LCA (landing craft) of the Allies, or the M4 Sherman tank after landing, etc.
Mizuno was selected to design and development this glider, the first prototype of this glider named “Shinryu(神龍, the god dragon)” was completed in May, 1945.
Almost all the parts of the Shinryu were wooden, carry a 100-kg bomb, and had three small sets of rokets which discharged the Shinryu. The first test flight was performed in July, 1945.
Although the performance of a prototype was unstable, production was started and five-sets prototypes were under manufacture at the time of the end of the war in August, 1945.
By losing "Shinryu" confidential documents, the use of this glider became uncertain.
But, several photographs of a prototype were exhibited by the Yokaren (予科練, the Japanese Naval Aviation Preparatory School) student pilot of those days who survived, That whole aspect became clear.
Attachments
- Joined
- 11 March 2006
- Messages
- 8,633
- Reaction score
- 3,494
Thanks blackkite !
This looks like the type of aircraft, that can be expected as the desperate
last-ditch weapon, it actually was.
There are a lot of other drawings around, some designated as "Mizuno Shinryu II",
but many just as "Mizuno Shinryu", showing a canard type. Is this really a further
development, or just a wrong drawing ?
This looks like the type of aircraft, that can be expected as the desperate
last-ditch weapon, it actually was.
There are a lot of other drawings around, some designated as "Mizuno Shinryu II",
but many just as "Mizuno Shinryu", showing a canard type. Is this really a further
development, or just a wrong drawing ?
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
- Joined
- 31 May 2007
- Messages
- 8,600
- Reaction score
- 6,861
Hi Jens!Jemiba said:
I can find Shinryu Ⅱ or Ⅲvacuum model pictures in Japanese sources, too. Those models are canard rocket glider as you know.
But it's difficult to find reliable information or evidence for existence of Shinryu Ⅱor Ⅲ still now. :-[
Some dimensions for the Kokukyoku Jinryu. (glider as shown in the drawings)
Construction of a prototype was contracted to Mizuno.
wingspan 7.0 m
length 8.22 "
height 1.8 "
wing area 11.0 m2
empty weight 220kg
armament 100kg explosive
max speed 275 km/h
ceiling 400m
normal range 4km
source :Japanese Special Attack Aircraft & Flying bombs.
Ryusuke Ishiguro and Tadeus Januszewski.
Construction of a prototype was contracted to Mizuno.
wingspan 7.0 m
length 8.22 "
height 1.8 "
wing area 11.0 m2
empty weight 220kg
armament 100kg explosive
max speed 275 km/h
ceiling 400m
normal range 4km
source :Japanese Special Attack Aircraft & Flying bombs.
Ryusuke Ishiguro and Tadeus Januszewski.
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
- Joined
- 31 May 2007
- Messages
- 8,600
- Reaction score
- 6,861
Thanks lark. 
From Japanese Wikipedia,
Although the Shinryu or Jinryu typeⅡ was developed as a rocket fighter attacker which had a delta canard wing , it finished only the plan.
The solid rocket engine was equipped and the cruising time for about 120 seconds was expected. This cruising time was comparable as Ba 349.
From Japanese Wikipedia,
Although the Shinryu or Jinryu typeⅡ was developed as a rocket fighter attacker which had a delta canard wing , it finished only the plan.
The solid rocket engine was equipped and the cruising time for about 120 seconds was expected. This cruising time was comparable as Ba 349.
windswords
ACCESS: Secret
- Joined
- 19 May 2009
- Messages
- 388
- Reaction score
- 208
According to Edwin Dyer's (Hikoki) great book Japanese Secret Projects the glider was call Jinryu and the later rocket plane was called Shinryu. As was said before the rocket plane (Shinryu II) was a plan only with no prototype being built.
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
- Joined
- 31 May 2007
- Messages
- 8,600
- Reaction score
- 6,861
Three rocket boosters which Jinryu held were used one by one continually.When Jinryu reached 200m altitude after used left and right rocket boosters, ignited middle rocket booster and attack the tank. Total thrust of three rocket boosters was 400kg. Burn time was 10 seconds. You can see three rocket boosters in bottom picture of attached book cover of this book.
Source : Japanese Special Attack Aircraft & Flying Bombs.
Japanese edition, ISBN978-4-499-23048-3
It's a amazing book indeed. Thanks lark.
You can see very precise 3-side view drawing and very rare side picture of Jinryu, etc. There are no Jinryu or Shinryu Ⅱ/Ⅲ drawings in this book.
Source : Japanese Special Attack Aircraft & Flying Bombs.
Japanese edition, ISBN978-4-499-23048-3
It's a amazing book indeed.
Thanks lark. You can see very precise 3-side view drawing and very rare side picture of Jinryu, etc. There are no Jinryu or Shinryu Ⅱ/Ⅲ drawings in this book.
Attachments
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
- Joined
- 31 May 2007
- Messages
- 8,600
- Reaction score
- 6,861
I believe it's true that there was a Jinryu Ⅱ developing team in Mizuno at the day.
If they selected canard wing as Jinryu Ⅱ's wing shape, perhaps Shinden’s shape inspired them.
Canard wing shape has the potential to realize small size aircraft.
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/Nippon/Japanese.htm
If they selected canard wing as Jinryu Ⅱ's wing shape, perhaps Shinden’s shape inspired them.
Canard wing shape has the potential to realize small size aircraft.
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/Nippon/Japanese.htm
Attachments
windswords
ACCESS: Secret
- Joined
- 19 May 2009
- Messages
- 388
- Reaction score
- 208
The skids can only be for landing, leading some to speculate that this was not a shimpu aircraft like the Jinryu.
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
- Joined
- 31 May 2007
- Messages
- 8,600
- Reaction score
- 6,861
Do you know how to take off?windswords said:
This 3 side view drawing's title is Three view of the Mizuno Shinryu II. From J.S.M.
What is J.S.M?
And another drawing. Almost same? ;D
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/shinryu.html
Attachments
"Shinryu" is not named in the chapter about the Jinryu.
But at the end of it ,the author Mr.Ishiguro writes this:
"... Major Suganami and his team started work on a new aeroplane,which was more
of an interceptor/attack fighter than a suicide aeroplane.There is information of an other
anti-tank rocket glider project designed "MX75". It was developed from 1941 to 1942,but
no detailed information is available...."
But at the end of it ,the author Mr.Ishiguro writes this:
"... Major Suganami and his team started work on a new aeroplane,which was more
of an interceptor/attack fighter than a suicide aeroplane.There is information of an other
anti-tank rocket glider project designed "MX75". It was developed from 1941 to 1942,but
no detailed information is available...."
Pelzig
ACCESS: Secret
- Joined
- 23 October 2008
- Messages
- 448
- Reaction score
- 77
From what I understand, the kanji for Jinryu and Shinryu is the same. There is no evidence to suggest that the Shinryu II ever used that name. It has just been accepted in contemporary sources.
As for how the Shinryu II launched, it was similar to the Mitsubishi J8M, ergo, using a dolly that was jettisoned upon attaining flight. What other means were considered aren't known but could have included being towed into the air (and thus saving fuel) or even air-dropped like the Ohka.
For weapons, it was strictly rockets. This isn't too uncommon as the Germans used R4M rockets on the Me 262 and trailed with the Me 163, the rockets being used as a "shotgun" blast against one target. With fast approach speeds, you didn't need accuracy with rockets and typically, one rocket hit was enough to cripple a bomber or put it out of action.
Authors have come up with various roles for the Shinryu II. One of the ideas was that it was designed as a suicide aircraft against ground targets like tanks. The pilot would use up the rockets then use the explosive warhead in the nose to take out some other target. This, however, makes almost no sense. The Japanese had more than adequate means to combat things like tanks, such as lunge mines, IEDs, anti-tank guns, etc. and they were working on their own version of the panzerfaust and bazooka. So, the idea of expending something as complex as the Shinryu II against tanks isn't too logical. As a "standard" suicide plane, it was more advanced and therefore more complex when compared to the Showa Toka (Ki-115 in IJN service) and the Ohka. So, in that light, it makes little sense to waste resources to build something more difficult when there were easier means to produce a workable suicide plane. This, then, makes the Shinryu II as a rocket powered, recoverable point defense interceptor. That makes more sense than a dedicated suicide role.
That the Shinryu II was even discussed as a suicide aircraft may have been precedent in that all of the IJN's suicide planes had no designations. So, perhaps this assumption carried over to the Shinryu II and therefore it had to be a suicide craft.
As for how the Shinryu II launched, it was similar to the Mitsubishi J8M, ergo, using a dolly that was jettisoned upon attaining flight. What other means were considered aren't known but could have included being towed into the air (and thus saving fuel) or even air-dropped like the Ohka.
For weapons, it was strictly rockets. This isn't too uncommon as the Germans used R4M rockets on the Me 262 and trailed with the Me 163, the rockets being used as a "shotgun" blast against one target. With fast approach speeds, you didn't need accuracy with rockets and typically, one rocket hit was enough to cripple a bomber or put it out of action.
Authors have come up with various roles for the Shinryu II. One of the ideas was that it was designed as a suicide aircraft against ground targets like tanks. The pilot would use up the rockets then use the explosive warhead in the nose to take out some other target. This, however, makes almost no sense. The Japanese had more than adequate means to combat things like tanks, such as lunge mines, IEDs, anti-tank guns, etc. and they were working on their own version of the panzerfaust and bazooka. So, the idea of expending something as complex as the Shinryu II against tanks isn't too logical. As a "standard" suicide plane, it was more advanced and therefore more complex when compared to the Showa Toka (Ki-115 in IJN service) and the Ohka. So, in that light, it makes little sense to waste resources to build something more difficult when there were easier means to produce a workable suicide plane. This, then, makes the Shinryu II as a rocket powered, recoverable point defense interceptor. That makes more sense than a dedicated suicide role.
That the Shinryu II was even discussed as a suicide aircraft may have been precedent in that all of the IJN's suicide planes had no designations. So, perhaps this assumption carried over to the Shinryu II and therefore it had to be a suicide craft.
It seems to me that once this aircraft were to descend to a reasonale altitude for ground straifing or rocket attack, say 1000 feet, it could hardly glide more than 2-3 miles after that, unless it were to have some form of sustainer propulsion. It seems implausible that any airfield can operate within 2 miles of the enermy front line.
So there seems to be no way this plane could be retreived for reuse, unless it has some sustainer propulsion. Otherwise it has to be a suicide aircraft.
So there seems to be no way this plane could be retreived for reuse, unless it has some sustainer propulsion. Otherwise it has to be a suicide aircraft.
Pelzig
ACCESS: Secret
- Joined
- 23 October 2008
- Messages
- 448
- Reaction score
- 77
I already outlined why the Shinryu II wasn't designed for ground attack and what you have to say only adds further credence to that.
But, I do not agree that the Shinryu II was an expendable, dedicated suicide airplane. Lets look at some of the last ditch suicide aircraft both the IJA and the IJN came up with:
Nakajima Ki-115 (Showa Toka)/Ki-230: A cheap, easily built suicide aircraft
Kokusai Ta-Go: Another easily constructed and designed suicide plane
Kawanishi Baika: Fiesler Fi 103R based pulse-jet powered suicide plane
Kugisho MXY7/Ohka: Basically a simple piloted bomb; later versions were more complex when thermo and turbojets were added (Model 22;Model 33;Model 43;Model 53)
Jinryu: Easy to build bomb-carrying suicide glider
Nakajima Kitsuka (Kikka): Initial design meant for suicide attacks
Kugisho D5Y: dedicated suicide version of the D3Y Myojo
The common denominator is that, for the most part, the Japanese were interested in quick to build, simple designed, suicide aircraft. They needed quantity, not quality and their design philosophy for such planes is pretty evident.
Lets take a look at the complexity of the Shinryu II. It used a cropped delta planeform using automatic spoilers, was equipped with a water/alcohol rocket motor cooling system, and was meant to take a pressurized cockpit or if that couldn't be installed, the pilot would wear a pressure suit. All of these are not found in these other suicide aircraft. If a pressurized cockpit/pressure suit was a requirement, that means the Shinryu II was meant to fly at altitude and combat bombers.
The Shinryu II was to be fitted with four Toko-Ro Type 2 rockets for a combined thrust of 600kg (1,322lb) with a burn time of 30 seconds. Endurance was 1.3 minutes. Keep in mind that the combat endurance of the Messerschmitt Me 163B was 2.5 minutes. The Bachem Ba 349A was only 2.2 minutes of endurance. So, the Shinryu II isn't completely out of the ballpark of point interceptors.
The methodology of launch was to get airborne on two rockets and use the remaining two to continue powered flight. Just like the J8M (the Japanese Me 163B), the Shinryu II would launch, conduct a least one attack, then return to base for recovery, rearming, and relaunching. And for that, it needed an acceptable glider shape.
To add, why rockets? Simple. Assurance of a hit. The Me 163B, with its cannon armament, gave the pilot about 3 seconds to line up the target, fire, and bank away to avoid collision. This was due to the high closure speed of the Komet versus the slower bomber. This meant the pilot needed nerves of steel, superb piloting, and excellent marksmanship. This was something the Luftwaffe didn't have much of by 1944 and why the Me 163 had such a poor kill ratio. So, the Me 163A was tested with R4M rocket racks and the Me 262 saw action using them. Same applied to the Bachem Natter. Launch a spread of rockets at the target and you really don't need tremendous accuracy and any one hit could prove fatal. The U.S., post-war, feared Russian bomber streams and you had a slew of fighters equipped with rockets such as the F-86D, F-89, and F-94.
But, I do not agree that the Shinryu II was an expendable, dedicated suicide airplane. Lets look at some of the last ditch suicide aircraft both the IJA and the IJN came up with:
Nakajima Ki-115 (Showa Toka)/Ki-230: A cheap, easily built suicide aircraft
Kokusai Ta-Go: Another easily constructed and designed suicide plane
Kawanishi Baika: Fiesler Fi 103R based pulse-jet powered suicide plane
Kugisho MXY7/Ohka: Basically a simple piloted bomb; later versions were more complex when thermo and turbojets were added (Model 22;Model 33;Model 43;Model 53)
Jinryu: Easy to build bomb-carrying suicide glider
Nakajima Kitsuka (Kikka): Initial design meant for suicide attacks
Kugisho D5Y: dedicated suicide version of the D3Y Myojo
The common denominator is that, for the most part, the Japanese were interested in quick to build, simple designed, suicide aircraft. They needed quantity, not quality and their design philosophy for such planes is pretty evident.
Lets take a look at the complexity of the Shinryu II. It used a cropped delta planeform using automatic spoilers, was equipped with a water/alcohol rocket motor cooling system, and was meant to take a pressurized cockpit or if that couldn't be installed, the pilot would wear a pressure suit. All of these are not found in these other suicide aircraft. If a pressurized cockpit/pressure suit was a requirement, that means the Shinryu II was meant to fly at altitude and combat bombers.
The Shinryu II was to be fitted with four Toko-Ro Type 2 rockets for a combined thrust of 600kg (1,322lb) with a burn time of 30 seconds. Endurance was 1.3 minutes. Keep in mind that the combat endurance of the Messerschmitt Me 163B was 2.5 minutes. The Bachem Ba 349A was only 2.2 minutes of endurance. So, the Shinryu II isn't completely out of the ballpark of point interceptors.
The methodology of launch was to get airborne on two rockets and use the remaining two to continue powered flight. Just like the J8M (the Japanese Me 163B), the Shinryu II would launch, conduct a least one attack, then return to base for recovery, rearming, and relaunching. And for that, it needed an acceptable glider shape.
To add, why rockets? Simple. Assurance of a hit. The Me 163B, with its cannon armament, gave the pilot about 3 seconds to line up the target, fire, and bank away to avoid collision. This was due to the high closure speed of the Komet versus the slower bomber. This meant the pilot needed nerves of steel, superb piloting, and excellent marksmanship. This was something the Luftwaffe didn't have much of by 1944 and why the Me 163 had such a poor kill ratio. So, the Me 163A was tested with R4M rocket racks and the Me 262 saw action using them. Same applied to the Bachem Natter. Launch a spread of rockets at the target and you really don't need tremendous accuracy and any one hit could prove fatal. The U.S., post-war, feared Russian bomber streams and you had a slew of fighters equipped with rockets such as the F-86D, F-89, and F-94.
chuck4 said:
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
- Joined
- 31 May 2007
- Messages
- 8,600
- Reaction score
- 6,861
Hi Ed!
Do you have a original drawing of SinryuⅡ?
According to your book, maximum soeed of ShinryuⅡ was 300km/h, Range was 4km., Ceiling was 400m.
I think these values are too small for ShinryuⅡ, if ShinryuⅡwas a point interceptor.
Do you have a original drawing of SinryuⅡ?
According to your book, maximum soeed of ShinryuⅡ was 300km/h, Range was 4km., Ceiling was 400m.
I think these values are too small for ShinryuⅡ, if ShinryuⅡwas a point interceptor.
windswords
ACCESS: Secret
- Joined
- 19 May 2009
- Messages
- 388
- Reaction score
- 208
I saw those figures too. Perhaps it is a misprint and the figures should be for the Jinryu (aka Shinryu I) and not the Shinryu II.
- Joined
- 11 March 2006
- Messages
- 8,633
- Reaction score
- 3,494
Missed that point on the Shinryu (or Jinryu) II : There are, what seem to be booster rockets attached
directly to the wing skids, so (if we accept this configuration as authentic) it took off on the skids.
Maybe only the wing skids would have been jettisoned and the nose skid only would have been used for
landing. Thought about those rocket packs as armament, but as they aren't lined up with the longitudinal
axis, to my opinion this wouldn't make too much sense, not to mention the darg of the skids in flight.
directly to the wing skids, so (if we accept this configuration as authentic) it took off on the skids.
Maybe only the wing skids would have been jettisoned and the nose skid only would have been used for
landing. Thought about those rocket packs as armament, but as they aren't lined up with the longitudinal
axis, to my opinion this wouldn't make too much sense, not to mention the darg of the skids in flight.
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
- Joined
- 31 May 2007
- Messages
- 8,600
- Reaction score
- 6,861
I am afraid I have to say no, Blackite san.
I have same information as everyone else. My drawings are just speculative and my objective when exposing them here, to the opinion of experts, is looking for a reasonable explanation to the still unresolved mysteries of aviation.
I have same information as everyone else. My drawings are just speculative and my objective when exposing them here, to the opinion of experts, is looking for a reasonable explanation to the still unresolved mysteries of aviation.
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
- Joined
- 31 May 2007
- Messages
- 8,600
- Reaction score
- 6,861
Attachments
QAZ
Interested in Japanese jet development during WWII
Honestly, I am not convinced that this Jinryuu II was even a real plan. The only descriptive source of information I've read of it in is Japanese Secret Projects.
If it was real, I doubt there is truly enough info to say anything about design aspects, nor to speculate on its role based on those features. It would have only been under planning for about a month. I think there is too much speculation and 'telephoning' info going on about it.
I've looked through all the listed sources in JP Secret Projects before, I could not find the source of the information. If someone has considerable information from another non-web source, that would be very interesting.
If it was real, I doubt there is truly enough info to say anything about design aspects, nor to speculate on its role based on those features. It would have only been under planning for about a month. I think there is too much speculation and 'telephoning' info going on about it.
I've looked through all the listed sources in JP Secret Projects before, I could not find the source of the information. If someone has considerable information from another non-web source, that would be very interesting.
Similar threads
-
Japanese "Special Attack" Projects WW2
- Started by moin1900
- Replies: 57
-
-
-
Armstrong Whitworth AW.171 Super Sonic VTOL Flying Wing Project- Started by GTX
- Replies: 17
-
Japanese Secret Projects:Experimental Aircraft of the IJA & IJN 1939-1945- Started by Pelzig
- Replies: 261