Mirages I - III/5, Prototypes & Projects
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Deltafan
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What I know (from Alan Warnes in Air Forces Monthly November 2017 and Avions de combat March 2018) about the Pakistani Mirage :
-284 were ordered new or used (135 in France, 76 in Libya, 50 in Australia, 13 in Spain and 10 in Lebanon), divided into 195 used in flight (those acquired in France, Australia and Lebanon) and 89 for parts (those purchased in Libya and Spain).
of the 195 used in flight, 70 were subject to a ROSE (Retrofit Of Strike Element) modernization, distributed as follows:
-37 were modernized ROSE I (5 III ordered new in France and 32 III ordered second-hand in Australia)
-19 have been modernized ROSE II (used M 5 ex French Armée de l'air)
-14 were modernized ROSE III (M 5 from OCCAZ ex French Armée de l'air too).
A few years ago, Pakistan requested further modernization from France, but this was refused due to political disagreements between the two states. For the same reason, France would have vetoed the purchase of Egyptian Mirage IIIs by Pakistan.
-284 were ordered new or used (135 in France, 76 in Libya, 50 in Australia, 13 in Spain and 10 in Lebanon), divided into 195 used in flight (those acquired in France, Australia and Lebanon) and 89 for parts (those purchased in Libya and Spain).
of the 195 used in flight, 70 were subject to a ROSE (Retrofit Of Strike Element) modernization, distributed as follows:
-37 were modernized ROSE I (5 III ordered new in France and 32 III ordered second-hand in Australia)
-19 have been modernized ROSE II (used M 5 ex French Armée de l'air)
-14 were modernized ROSE III (M 5 from OCCAZ ex French Armée de l'air too).
A few years ago, Pakistan requested further modernization from France, but this was refused due to political disagreements between the two states. For the same reason, France would have vetoed the purchase of Egyptian Mirage IIIs by Pakistan.
F.L.
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In what year did Pakistan buy the Libyan Mirage IIIs ?
Deltafan
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officially announced in July 2004.
Pakistan buys Libya’s old fighter jets
Pakistan has turned to old ally Libya to purchase a fleet of Mirage fighter jets and spare parts, an air force spokesperson said on Monday. ''Libya had a fleet of Mirages, which was grounded for over a decade. We have purchased that fleet at a very reasonable price,'' Air Commodore Sarfraz Khan...
mg.co.za
The story of the Israeli Nesher Fighter, the Mirage 5 Built by Rockwell (and Not by IAI)
The story of the Israeli Nesher Fighter aircraft, the Mirage 5 Built by Rockwell International (and Not by IAI)
theaviationgeekclub.com
F.L.
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What's wrong with Tom Cooper ?
And weren't the Nesher really delivered in kit form from France ?
Never got the final word of that story - between what says Dassault, what says Israel, and what says... Switzerland.
The only thing I'm sure, is that the 50 Mirage V built for Israel WERE built BUT NOT delivered - and went into storage for a few months. Somewhat amusingly, they had to be dumped on the Armée de l'Air which didn't actually wanted them. The reason ? minimal avionics for clear weather... perfect for Israel, but not for nothern France... and still they gave stellar service until 1994.
www.escadrilles.org
fr.wikipedia.org
fr.wikipedia.org
The only thing I'm sure, is that the 50 Mirage V built for Israel WERE built BUT NOT delivered - and went into storage for a few months. Somewhat amusingly, they had to be dumped on the Armée de l'Air which didn't actually wanted them. The reason ? minimal avionics for clear weather... perfect for Israel, but not for nothern France... and still they gave stellar service until 1994.
L’Armée de l’Air en 1985 - Escadrilles
Les unités volantes de l’Armée de l’Air, fin-1985 En 1985, le contexte mondial n’est pas à la détente: aux USA, les présidences de Reagan ont conduit les USA à hausser le ton en matière de dépenses militaires: le traumatisme du Vietnam est oublié, place à la “guerre des étoiles”. Si la situation...
www.escadrilles.org
Escadron de chasse 2/13 Alpes — Wikipédia
Escadron d'instruction en vol 3/13 Auvergne — Wikipédia
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In my book, he has a personal agenda and very strong bias in his presentation of selective information, when it relates to conflicts between a Muslim army and anyone else.
Extremely so when the opponent happens to be those (
(Anyway, it's not a topic for this section of the forum)
Indeed, it is documented that some Mirage 5J / Nesher kits came more-or-less clandestinely among spares shipments from Bordeaux-Merignac. At least one Nesher on display had a manufacturer plate showing so.
Now how many kits, a single one as IAI says, or many more? As Archibald wrote, there are conflicting versions. Let's just keep in mind that in this time Mirage 5s were in full production for Arab countries, Israeli-designed improvements included. Libya received 85, and transferred some to Egypt, then the direct opponent. Oh well. Nations, friends, intererests...
As we know, a few years later IAI was manufacturing whole new-build planes, the KFIRs (a further development of the 5 with canards and a J79). Most likely there was a ramp-up from the first kit assembly, but the details are not public.
Again, everyone can make their own opinion.
Let's go back to prototypes and projects.
.... "Some myths remain persistent no matter how much they are proven to be false." "No, this is not a "Tom Cooper discovery": the story of the delivery and assembly of Mirages of French manufacture in Israel was published in the American magazine Wings, in 2001, in an interview with the American aircraft designer Gene Salvay. Salvay worked for North American since World War II and participated in the creation of types such as B-25, F-86, F-100, etc. In the mid-1960s (after the cancellation of the XF-108 Rapier interceptor), North American was purchased by Rockwell, originally a company specializing in the manufacture of auto spare parts, which meanwhile had strong intentions to expand, so also launched the production of auto spare parts in Israel.
In 1970, Salvay was one of the leading aircraft designers in the United States. Rockwell therefore sent him to Israel to help install the General Electric J-79 engine on the Mirage’s fuselage. This is how he witnessed the delivery and assembly of the Mirage 5J by American technicians at IAI. In fact, this is how Salvay then designed the Kfir, with much help from Lockheed and Dassault, before returning to the US. He designed the B-1 bomber (among others). The rest of the story was unearthed by Albert Grandolini in France, while David Lednicer took the photo attached below, which shows the plaque of the maker of the first Mirage 5J (exhibited at the Israel Air Force Museum in Israel)."
"Unsurprisingly, even the "most authoritative investigators" still insist that "only the first Nesher" was "made in France". In fact, the story of Dassault’s involvement with the IAI was just beginning: in South Africa it is a "public secret" how many parts of 'IAI Kfir' were acquired to obtain the Cheetah fighters in the 1980s and 1990s, which were also "made in France".
If you want more detailed information the full story is here:
https://www.zona-militar.com/2019/1...irage-5-construido-por-rockwell-y-no-por-iai/
This is a simple matter of logic and minimum knowledge of aeronautics. No one makes structural changes without the knowledge and support of the manufacturer to have his previous data of the structural resistance tests and after exaustive tests in wind tunnels. Everything else is mythology and propaganda.
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I have to agree with you, at least partially. I often read his blog - Sarcastosaurus - for the Ukraine stuff: but there are some disturbing stuff indeed. He tends to rant all over the place: about Israel, Europe and the USA.
In the end, the blog is far more interesting a) when Cooper focuse only on Ukraine war and b) when somebody else write (Don weekly).
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In an article written by... Tom Cooper? Thanks, but no thanks. I'm not looking for sites slandering Israel.
The instant you recommended that article, for me you lost all credibility or interest as a source. End of story for me.
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The IAI Nesher flew in Israel a scant 2 years or so after France cancelled the Israeli Mirage order.
The only previous experience IAI had was assembly under licence of the French Magister basic trainer, an extremely simple and austere jet trainer with a performance akin to a WW2 piston fighter. It wasn't designed or equipped with ejection seats for example.
It defies belief that France wasn't involved.
This is not disparaging Israels ingenuity and subsequent development of their industry...but at the time there was no way they built from scratch (training, assembly line setup, jigs, materials sourcing, components, subsystems..etc..etc) all the means to manufacture a mach 2 fighter in that timeframe, and at that industrial date (circa 1970) without huge French assistance.
It's simple logic and common sense.
Edit: correction on timeframe.
The only previous experience IAI had was assembly under licence of the French Magister basic trainer, an extremely simple and austere jet trainer with a performance akin to a WW2 piston fighter. It wasn't designed or equipped with ejection seats for example.
It defies belief that France wasn't involved.
This is not disparaging Israels ingenuity and subsequent development of their industry...but at the time there was no way they built from scratch (training, assembly line setup, jigs, materials sourcing, components, subsystems..etc..etc) all the means to manufacture a mach 2 fighter in that timeframe, and at that industrial date (circa 1970) without huge French assistance.
It's simple logic and common sense.
Edit: correction on timeframe.
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Plus Marcel Dassault was jewish and a Buchenwald survivor (he almost died there), so it made sense he helped Israel in the 1960's, the bulk of the country population also survivors...
What I think about all this: is that we still have no clue about what really happened between Dassault, the french government, Rockwell, Switzerland, and of course Israel. The whole story is still as nebulous as ever.
fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog
The only thing that's sure: the AdA never wanted any Mirage V, as it was clearly an export variant with only day / clear weather avionics, certainly not adapted to continental France climate, and even less Alsace.
Yet... the 13ème escadre de chasse got such planes nonetheless. 3/13 first, then 2/13.
Note that in the previous decade 2/13 had Mirage IIIE, which was far more sophisticated, as far as all weather avionics go.
Going from Mirage IIIE to Mirage VF was kinda trading F-105D for F-5A.
What I think about all this: is that we still have no clue about what really happened between Dassault, the french government, Rockwell, Switzerland, and of course Israel. The whole story is still as nebulous as ever.
13e escadre de chasse — Wikipédia
The only thing that's sure: the AdA never wanted any Mirage V, as it was clearly an export variant with only day / clear weather avionics, certainly not adapted to continental France climate, and even less Alsace.
Yet... the 13ème escadre de chasse got such planes nonetheless. 3/13 first, then 2/13.
Note that in the previous decade 2/13 had Mirage IIIE, which was far more sophisticated, as far as all weather avionics go.
Going from Mirage IIIE to Mirage VF was kinda trading F-105D for F-5A.
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In fact, it was him who chose J instead of the logical I for the Mirage III C variant exported to Israel: "le Mirage IIIC Juif".
Even though he had been influenced to convert to Catholicism by the nuns of the hospital where he recovered after Buchenwald, he was very proud that his products helped Israel.
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A likewise comparison can be seen in South Africa a few years later. There are to be plenty references to them obtaining a licence to manufacture the Mirage F1 yet not a single aircraft was produced. Despite the order being placed in the early 70s already - the industry was yet not there to produce a high performance mach 2 aircraft. French manufacturing know how transfer was stopped in 1977 when they also finally imposed an arms embargo.
That said, SA also had to make do with several modifications to their Mirage III and F1 fleets without Dassault help so I would challenge an earlier post saying it is impossible. RWR sensors on all Mirages, flare packs under the wings and even the replacement of the ventral fins with flare units on the F1s attest to that. Later Atar 09C swap with 09k50 in the mid 80s and mating and splining together Mirage fuselages.
More advanced projects like the various Cheetah projects were however done with considerable foreign assistance from Israel. French involvement likely too as a clandestine spares source. (On the Oryx and eventual Rooivalk helicopter programs French suppliers were heavily involved in parts supply and development work.)
But even there scope for local ingenuity was around. The flare fit into the ventral fuel tank for the Cheetah being an example. Lacking the required Mirage tunnel data (!), the RATO pack profile and drag data was used to determine the area within to work and design the chaff/flare fit.
Lots of the aero work for the Cheetah aero was done in the middle east (assume Israel) I was personally told. It was only by the late 80s, really the early 90s that local tunnel capabilities really started catching up. Before that considerable use of hand calcs was made while the various tools were developed and expanded upon.
May be of some interest that the one and only "fat butt" Mirage IIIT 01 was recently removed from is pole at Rochefort where he was slowly rotting, and is been restored by the Musée Européen de l'Aviation de Chasse of montélimar. From what I've read the wings were seriously damaged by corrosion, but some pieces can be replaced by MIIIE spares.
Anyway, they've posted few picts of the restoration start here. Hopefully there will be more later.
Anyway, they've posted few picts of the restoration start here. Hopefully there will be more later.
Nice ! The Mirage that swallowed a turbofan - almost too big for it. If you think the F-111 and Tomcat compressor stalls were nasty, try that one. In one of the flights the stalls were so bad the engine shut down, and the test pilot (think he was Jean Coureau) had to make a glided landing. "Glided" is not an appropriate word... Dassault engineers said the noise of the compressor stalls was like a canon de 75 firing.
A question of pure engineering is taken to the political and even religious chapter not to simply admit, that Israel had not and does not have now technical capacity to develop its own fighters. This that we would admit for any country of the world even advanced, for some reason is not accepted for Israel. Maybe has superpowers that some of us don't understand.
Anyone who has seen charts and engineering data knows that it takes years of testing, studies and experimenting in wind tunnels with that design to dare to have authority to make changes. And most importantly, previous experience along different planes to learn what should and should not be done.
As I said earlier, the name of the American chief engineer who led the project is known, like the name of the American companies that deployed their plants in Israel to make the necessary changes with the "important help" ( imperative ) of Dassault. Because Dassault has the data of structural forces and aerodynamic behavior in manoeuvres at match speed.
Seems that some when speaks is thinking of his restoration project by lowering a body and putting a turbo engine in a Beetle.
Anyone who has seen charts and engineering data knows that it takes years of testing, studies and experimenting in wind tunnels with that design to dare to have authority to make changes. And most importantly, previous experience along different planes to learn what should and should not be done.
As I said earlier, the name of the American chief engineer who led the project is known, like the name of the American companies that deployed their plants in Israel to make the necessary changes with the "important help" ( imperative ) of Dassault. Because Dassault has the data of structural forces and aerodynamic behavior in manoeuvres at match speed.
Seems that some when speaks is thinking of his restoration project by lowering a body and putting a turbo engine in a Beetle.
Re-Mirage 5J / Neshers -> And we didn't even talked about the engines. I mean making complete working copies of fighter jet engine just from Mirage plans smuggled from Switzerland ? Nope sorry, I don't buy it. Reverse engineering a jet engine would be even more difficult than reverse engineering an airframe, even more so in such a short time and in a country with 0 previous experience doing that.
All this nice BS was done to serve both French and Israeli interests.
For Israelis, it was good PR pretending how tech advanced and clever they were going around these pesky" embargoing" French, by quickly copying their jet fighter. All the while still getting these planes delivered un-serialed in pieces to assemble, and spare parts for their MIIICJ fleet. Note also these where at one point re-engined to ATAR 09Cs too, so these engines came from somewhere ... But certainly not copied and made in Israel from Swiss plans, sorry.
For France, it was a good BS to show their new Arab clients that they were strictly following their "arm embargo" on Israel, so they could sell stuff to both sides for a while. They knew the Israelis were moving to all US arms supply anyway, and they could not compete with that. But the Israelis still wanted these M5j, and support for their MIIICJ fleet, while Arabs states were eager to buy Mirages.
So the BS was all very convenient to oil the all thing on both sides.
But I know from experience that if you question that old BS, you may be called an antisemite by some, because you dare question one of the "sacred Israelis genius moves classic" , yes it happened to me ... as ridiculous as it may be.
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Very interesting what you comment on the double sale to both sides. I did not know. Now I understand the whole maneuver of concealment. I had read the embargo and the maneuver to dodge it. But I did not remember selling Mirage to Arab countries. When you mentioned it, I was reminded the fleet that Saddam Hussein used. ( For example ). And there all the concealment of export makes perfect sense.
About the science fiction stories of changing the plane without the help of the builder... I began not to believe what I read in another forum, where it was talked about that they had widened the Mirage's fuselage, changed the wings.... CHANGED THE WINGS !!
Someone has no idea how serious and rigorous this is. I recommend them a film from my country (Spain) called "the astronaut". In it the protagonist says that he can copy the Apollo rocket and arrive to the moon for 4,000 euros.
Deltafan
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Thank you very much. Another reason for me to visit this museum a third time. The first time the highlight was the Mirage G8 02 parts, the second time it was the Mirage III EX, and the next time it will be this III T (and the video says they also have a Swiss C-36 now).
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Deltafan
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I have to admit that I don't remember... I just searched on SPF, but I didn't find anything. Maybe also because there was already this picture:
But I will look in my personal archives.
Edit : only two pictures. But done
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