Mirages I - III/5, Prototypes & Projects

[Javvp]

the Spanish Mirage IIIEE were returned to France as a partial financing for the new F-1. And France resold them to Pakistan.

Pakistan received Mirage III/V from France, Australia, Spain and Lebanon.

 

[Deltafan]

What I know (from Alan Warnes in Air Forces Monthly November 2017 and Avions de combat March 2018) about the Pakistani Mirage :

-284 were ordered new or used (135 in France, 76 in Libya, 50 in Australia, 13 in Spain and 10 in Lebanon), divided into 195 used in flight (those acquired in France, Australia and Lebanon) and 89 for parts (those purchased in Libya and Spain).

of the 195 used in flight, 70 were subject to a ROSE (Retrofit Of Strike Element) modernization, distributed as follows:

-37 were modernized ROSE I (5 III ordered new in France and 32 III ordered second-hand in Australia)

-19 have been modernized ROSE II (used M 5 ex French Armée de l'air)

-14 were modernized ROSE III (M 5 from OCCAZ ex French Armée de l'air too).

A few years ago, Pakistan requested further modernization from France, but this was refused due to political disagreements between the two states. For the same reason, France would have vetoed the purchase of Egyptian Mirage IIIs by Pakistan.

 

[F.L.]

76 in Libya

In what year did Pakistan buy the Libyan Mirage IIIs ?

 

[Deltafan]

In what year did Pakistan buy the Libyan Mirage IIIs ?

officially announced in July 2004.

”The deal has been finalised, the shipment has started.”

Pakistan buys Libya’s old fighter jets

Pakistan has turned to old ally Libya to purchase a fleet of Mirage fighter jets and spare parts, an air force spokesperson said on Monday. ''Libya had a fleet of Mirages, which was grounded for over a decade. We have purchased that fleet at a very reasonable price,'' Air Commodore Sarfraz Khan...

mg.co.za

 

[KwaZulu]

The story of the Israeli Nesher Fighter, the Mirage 5 Built by Rockwell (and Not by IAI)

The story of the Israeli Nesher Fighter aircraft, the Mirage 5 Built by Rockwell International (and Not by IAI)

theaviationgeekclub.com

 

[dan_inbox]

Ah, yes, Tom Cooper...

If you like that genre, there's also Rob Arnt, aka grey falcon.

 

[F.L.]

Ah, yes, Tom Cooper...

If you like that genre, there's also Rob Arnt, aka grey falcon.

What's wrong with Tom Cooper ?
And weren't the Nesher really delivered in kit form from France ?

 

[Archibald]

Never got the final word of that story - between what says Dassault, what says Israel, and what says... Switzerland.

The only thing I'm sure, is that the 50 Mirage V built for Israel WERE built BUT NOT delivered - and went into storage for a few months. Somewhat amusingly, they had to be dumped on the Armée de l'Air which didn't actually wanted them. The reason ? minimal avionics for clear weather... perfect for Israel, but not for nothern France... and still they gave stellar service until 1994.

L’Armée de l’Air en 1985 - Escadrilles

Les unités volantes de l’Armée de l’Air, fin-1985 En 1985, le contexte mondial n’est pas à la détente: aux USA, les présidences de Reagan ont conduit les USA à hausser le ton en matière de dépenses militaires: le traumatisme du Vietnam est oublié, place à la “guerre des étoiles”. Si la situation...

www.escadrilles.org

Escadron de chasse 2/13 Alpes — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

Escadron d'instruction en vol 3/13 Auvergne — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

 

[dan_inbox]

What's wrong with Tom Cooper ?

In my book, he has a personal agenda and very strong bias in his presentation of selective information, when it relates to conflicts between a Muslim army and anyone else.
Extremely so when the opponent happens to be those (Damn J..) Evil Zionists. But YMMV. Make your own opinion.
(Anyway, it's not a topic for this section of the forum)

And weren't the Nesher really delivered in kit form from France ?

Indeed, it is documented that some Mirage 5J / Nesher kits came more-or-less clandestinely among spares shipments from Bordeaux-Merignac. At least one Nesher on display had a manufacturer plate showing so.
Now how many kits, a single one as IAI says, or many more? As Archibald wrote, there are conflicting versions. Let's just keep in mind that in this time Mirage 5s were in full production for Arab countries, Israeli-designed improvements included. Libya received 85, and transferred some to Egypt, then the direct opponent. Oh well. Nations, friends, intererests...

As we know, a few years later IAI was manufacturing whole new-build planes, the KFIRs (a further development of the 5 with canards and a J79). Most likely there was a ramp-up from the first kit assembly, but the details are not public.
Again, everyone can make their own opinion.

Let's go back to prototypes and projects.

 

[Javvp]

.... "Some myths remain persistent no matter how much they are proven to be false."

"No, this is not a "Tom Cooper discovery": the story of the delivery and assembly of Mirages of French manufacture in Israel was published in the American magazine Wings, in 2001, in an interview with the American aircraft designer Gene Salvay. Salvay worked for North American since World War II and participated in the creation of types such as B-25, F-86, F-100, etc. In the mid-1960s (after the cancellation of the XF-108 Rapier interceptor), North American was purchased by Rockwell, originally a company specializing in the manufacture of auto spare parts, which meanwhile had strong intentions to expand, so also launched the production of auto spare parts in Israel.

In 1970, Salvay was one of the leading aircraft designers in the United States. Rockwell therefore sent him to Israel to help install the General Electric J-79 engine on the Mirage’s fuselage. This is how he witnessed the delivery and assembly of the Mirage 5J by American technicians at IAI. In fact, this is how Salvay then designed the Kfir, with much help from Lockheed and Dassault, before returning to the US. He designed the B-1 bomber (among others). The rest of the story was unearthed by Albert Grandolini in France, while David Lednicer took the photo attached below, which shows the plaque of the maker of the first Mirage 5J (exhibited at the Israel Air Force Museum in Israel)."

"Unsurprisingly, even the "most authoritative investigators" still insist that "only the first Nesher" was "made in France". In fact, the story of Dassault’s involvement with the IAI was just beginning: in South Africa it is a "public secret" how many parts of 'IAI Kfir' were acquired to obtain the Cheetah fighters in the 1980s and 1990s, which were also "made in France".

If you want more detailed information the full story is here:

https://www.zona-militar.com/2019/1...irage-5-construido-por-rockwell-y-no-por-iai/

This is a simple matter of logic and minimum knowledge of aeronautics. No one makes structural changes without the knowledge and support of the manufacturer to have his previous data of the structural resistance tests and after exaustive tests in wind tunnels. Everything else is mythology and propaganda.

 

[Archibald]

In my book, he has a personal agenda and very strong bias in his presentation of selective information, when it relates to conflicts between a Muslim army and anyone else.
Extremely so when the opponent happens to be those (Damn J..) Evil Zionists. But YMMV. Make your own opinion.
(Anyway, it's not a topic for this section of the forum)

I have to agree with you, at least partially. I often read his blog - Sarcastosaurus - for the Ukraine stuff: but there are some disturbing stuff indeed. He tends to rant all over the place: about Israel, Europe and the USA.

In the end, the blog is far more interesting a) when Cooper focuse only on Ukraine war and b) when somebody else write (Don weekly).

 

[dan_inbox]

If you want more detailed information the full story is here:
https://www.zona-militar.com/2019/1...irage-5-construido-por-rockwell-y-no-por-iai/

In an article written by... Tom Cooper? Thanks, but no thanks. I'm not looking for sites slandering Israel.
The instant you recommended that article, for me you lost all credibility or interest as a source. End of story for me.

 

[kaiserbill]

The IAI Nesher flew in Israel a scant 2 years or so after France cancelled the Israeli Mirage order.
The only previous experience IAI had was assembly under licence of the French Magister basic trainer, an extremely simple and austere jet trainer with a performance akin to a WW2 piston fighter. It wasn't designed or equipped with ejection seats for example.

It defies belief that France wasn't involved.
This is not disparaging Israels ingenuity and subsequent development of their industry...but at the time there was no way they built from scratch (training, assembly line setup, jigs, materials sourcing, components, subsystems..etc..etc) all the means to manufacture a mach 2 fighter in that timeframe, and at that industrial date (circa 1970) without huge French assistance.

It's simple logic and common sense.

Edit: correction on timeframe.

 

[Archibald]

Plus Marcel Dassault was jewish and a Buchenwald survivor (he almost died there), so it made sense he helped Israel in the 1960's, the bulk of the country population also survivors...

What I think about all this: is that we still have no clue about what really happened between Dassault, the french government, Rockwell, Switzerland, and of course Israel. The whole story is still as nebulous as ever.

13e escadre de chasse — Wikipédia

fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog

The only thing that's sure: the AdA never wanted any Mirage V, as it was clearly an export variant with only day / clear weather avionics, certainly not adapted to continental France climate, and even less Alsace.

Yet... the 13ème escadre de chasse got such planes nonetheless. 3/13 first, then 2/13.

On March 1 , 1972, a third squadron was formed, the 3/13 Auvergne fighter squadron. Since its creation, it has flown on Mirage 5Fs initially planned for Israel , but blocked in France, following the embargo decided by General de Gaulle .
2/13 also passed on Mirage 5F between January 8 and March 30, 1977.

Note that in the previous decade 2/13 had Mirage IIIE, which was far more sophisticated, as far as all weather avionics go.

Going from Mirage IIIE to Mirage VF was kinda trading F-105D for F-5A.

 

[dan_inbox]

Plus Marcel Dassault was jewish and a Buchenwald survivor (he almost died there), so it made sense he helped Israel in the 1960's, the bulk of the country population also survivors...

In fact, it was him who chose J instead of the logical I for the Mirage III C variant exported to Israel: "le Mirage IIIC Juif".
Even though he had been influenced to convert to Catholicism by the nuns of the hospital where he recovered after Buchenwald, he was very proud that his products helped Israel.

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

It defies belief that France wasn't involved.
This is not disparaging Israels ingenuity and subsequent development of their industry...but at the time there was no way they built from scratch (training, assembly line setup, jigs, materials sourcing, components, subsystems..etc..etc) all the means to manufacture a mach 2 fighter in that timeframe, and at that industrial date (circa 1970) without huge French assistance.

A likewise comparison can be seen in South Africa a few years later. There are to be plenty references to them obtaining a licence to manufacture the Mirage F1 yet not a single aircraft was produced. Despite the order being placed in the early 70s already - the industry was yet not there to produce a high performance mach 2 aircraft. French manufacturing know how transfer was stopped in 1977 when they also finally imposed an arms embargo.

That said, SA also had to make do with several modifications to their Mirage III and F1 fleets without Dassault help so I would challenge an earlier post saying it is impossible. RWR sensors on all Mirages, flare packs under the wings and even the replacement of the ventral fins with flare units on the F1s attest to that. Later Atar 09C swap with 09k50 in the mid 80s and mating and splining together Mirage fuselages.

More advanced projects like the various Cheetah projects were however done with considerable foreign assistance from Israel. French involvement likely too as a clandestine spares source. (On the Oryx and eventual Rooivalk helicopter programs French suppliers were heavily involved in parts supply and development work.)
But even there scope for local ingenuity was around. The flare fit into the ventral fuel tank for the Cheetah being an example. Lacking the required Mirage tunnel data (!), the RATO pack profile and drag data was used to determine the area within to work and design the chaff/flare fit.
Lots of the aero work for the Cheetah aero was done in the middle east (assume Israel) I was personally told. It was only by the late 80s, really the early 90s that local tunnel capabilities really started catching up. Before that considerable use of hand calcs was made while the various tools were developed and expanded upon.