Mirage 4000

[Tonton-42]

The latest issue of The Aviation Historian has a good article on the Mirage 4000.

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Chris

I love English people when sometime they try to imitate us the Frenchies ! But when Frenchies saw the Mirage 4000, they said as me at Le Bourget "WAAAAOOO ...", not a little "Oooh-la-la" ... as Marylin Monroe when she sang with Yves Montand ...

At Le Bourget 1983 I forgot to mention ...

 

[NMaude]

Why wasn't the Mirage 4000 as it was put into production instead of the Dassault Rafael?

 

[Deltafan]

Why wasn't the Mirage 4000 as it was put into production instead of the Dassault Rafael?

Dassault requested 4000 for France and 2000 for export. The French government decided on the 2000, less expensive, for France and the 4000 for export...
Three countries showed interest. The revolution stopped the Iranian prospect, the costs of the war did not allow the Iraqi prospect and the refusal of the French government to acquire a pre-series put an end to the Saudi prospect...
The French government then made the choice of the Rafale, newer, cheaper and navalizable...

But perhaps the new book will teach us more about these topics.

 

[Archibald]

Why wasn't the Mirage 4000 as it was put into production instead of the Dassault Rafael?

Too big, too expensive. Think of the 4000 as a F-15, and the Rafale as a F-18. Australia, Canada and a few others initially wanted F-15s but went for cheaper F-18s. Same for the engines: M53 is closer from a F100 when M88 is akin to a F404. Smaller engines allowed the airframe to shrink.
The Armée de l'Air repeatedly tried to get a french Phantom (Mirage IVC, 1958) then multiple F-111s or Tornados (VG strike: AFVG, G4, G8) then a F-15 (ACF, 4000): to no avail. The advent of the F-18, plus F404 and RB199 mid-size turbofans, provided a solution at least.

Rafale can be seen as a shrunk 4000 with a few additional goodies: different air intakes, more efficient canard, digital rather than analog FBW, a touch of stealth, plus a naval variant. Smaller size, more efficient engines.
Also (in theory at least) lower acquisition cost: because spread over more airframes: through arm-twisting of the Aéronavale and also a takeover of the full and entire fast jet fleet of the AdA (took 30 years since 1993, but we are getting closer: only the 2000 presently survives, all the others types have been send to scrap or museums).

 

[iverson]

Why wasn't the Mirage 4000 as it was put into production instead of the Dassault Rafael?

Too big, too expensive. Think of the 4000 as a F-15, and the Rafale as a F-18. Australia, Canada and a few others initially wanted F-15s but went for cheaper F-18s. Same for the engines: M53 is closer from a F100 when M88 is akin to a F404. Smaller engines allowed the airframe to shrink.
The Armée de l'Air repeatedly tried to get a french Phantom (Mirage IVC, 1958) then multiple F-111s or Tornados (VG strike: AFVG, G4, G8) then a F-15 (ACF, 4000): to no avail. The advent of the F-18, plus F404 and RB199 mid-size turbofans, provided a solution at least.

Rafale can be seen as a shrunk 4000 with a few additional goodies: different air intakes, more efficient canard, digital rather than analog FBW, a touch of stealth, plus a naval variant. Smaller size, more efficient engines.
Also (in theory at least) lower acquisition cost: because spread over more airframes: through arm-twisting of the Aéronavale and also a takeover of the full and entire fast jet fleet of the AdA (took 30 years since 1993, but we are getting closer: only the 2000 presently survives, all the others types have been send to scrap or museums).

Plus the Rafale was a generation more advanced and thus promised a longer service life and better export possibilities.

 

[H_K]

SECRET DRAW

These Mirage 4000 cutaways are fantastic. I was wondering what the source is… are these based on actual drawings or just an artistic guess?

 

[Squirrel works]

Hi, They are based on the original plans, but not drawned by me...

 

[nricolas360]

If we combine all of these photos, it should mean that the theorical max air to air load (fox 1 and 2 only, no 3) was 6 Magic and 4 Super 530 (I assumed the "long range missiles" on the 5th picture were Super 530). With room to spare for various pods and jammers. Truely a beast.

Hello, I hope you're doing well!
I'm looking for sources regarding the armament of the (Super) Mirage 4000. I was wondering what was the sources of those two images that you posted, thanks.

 

[Sakyuz]

More

Really appreaciated the high quality photos of the m4k! thank you!

 

[Michel Van]

The Armée de l'Air repeatedly tried to get a french Phantom (Mirage IVC, 1958) then multiple F-111s or Tornados (VG strike: AFVG, G4, G8) then a F-15 (ACF, 4000): to no avail. The advent of the F-18, plus F404 and RB199 mid-size turbofans, provided a solution at least.

Don't forget this Armée de l'air proposal for Mach 3 interceptor in 1960-1970s.
but i don't known how far that program interfere with the others: AFVG, G4, G8, AFC etc.

 

[Archibald]

Not very far AFAIK but yes the temptation for a MIg(rage)-25 was there at some point...

 

[Harry64]

There may be "good" news about the English language edition of the book?

 

[Deltafan]

There may be "good" news about the English language edition of the book?

Not yet available from the publisher

Recherche : 5 résultats trouvés pour « Mirage* 4000* »

Your Library in the Sky La Bibliothèque du Ciel

www.skyshelf.eu

 

[Motocar]

corte

Next reteuched

 

[apparition13]

I finished the Super Mirage 4000 book a little while ago, and it left me with a couple of thoughts, namely that the 4000 was both too early and too late.

Too late in two ways.

First, If it had flown as a demonstrator in 1976 when the ACF was supposed to, when the F-14 and F-15 were having teething problems, it might have been able to translate potential into development funds and sales.

Second, it never flew with a full avionic kit. It was a flight demonstrator, but not a full production prototype. It always needed development money to get it up to combat standards, which it never received. If it had flown in 1980 or so with a full sized radar, ECM, extra fuel tanks in the empty spaces, and had launched missiles and dropped bombs it may have gotten sales.

Too early, in that it was built with technology that was outdated by the mid to late 80s. If it had flown mid to late 80s with Rafale like engines and avionics (and perhaps fully moving canards too), it might have proved attractive to Su-27 and F-15 adopters, with the big potential prize being India in place of the Su-30 buy since they already had Mirage 2000s.

The only development path I see for the aircraft as it was would be for a Mirage IV replacement contract which would result in a finished product that could be had "off the shelf" rather than needing additional funding by a potential foreign customer.

 

[R_K_M]

The 4000 was only ever flown with M53-2s, not M53-P2s, right? Lots of sources use the specs of the M53-P2 for some reason.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The 4000 was only ever flown with M53-2s, not M53-P2s, right? Lots of sources use the specs of the M53-P2 for some reason.

The Mirage 4000 flew with different mixes of M53-2, M53-5 and M53-P2. I had the immense privilege of making the only dual M53-P2 flight of its career. It was the best performing configuration but also the most representative of what the series could have been. The first flights were made with hybrid configurations of the M53-2 and M53-5, depending on availability. These engines had flown extensively on the F1-E and Mirage 2000, their characteristics were well known, and their development cycle was complete. It was out of the question to take the slightest risk, on a new aircraft. They took a number of precautions to ensure that they functioned properly, behind new air intakes, and particularly during tests that could put their air supply to the test, such as high-incidence tests, for example. Low-altitude display flights are also critical, as ‘virile’ transients are frequent to keep within the tight confines of the demonstration. Subsequently, in the latter part of the programme, the state of development of the P2 and its availability meant that it was often flown in a hybrid configuration, with the M53-2 or M53-5 on one side and the M53-P2 on the other.

Source: Alexis Rocher Super Mirage 4000 - the unrealised dream

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It was always intended to use M53-P2 for production Mirage 4000.

 

[Owens Z]

Yes, Mirage 4000 in english soon.

There may be "good" news about the English language edition of the book?

Not yet available from the publisher

Sir, congratulations on your new book about the big Mirage 4000 fighter. I remember this project when it was active in my youth in the early 1980's, and I remain interested in it, and in French industry more generally. My high school proficiency in French has since evaporated, alas, but I look forward to the promised English-language edition of this book, if it is indeed detailed, truthful, and well illustrated. Please keep us informed.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Sir, congratulations on your new book about the big Mirage 4000 fighter. I remember this project when it was active in my youth in the early 1980's, and I remain interested in it, and in French industry more generally. My high school proficiency in French has since evaporated, alas, but I look forward to the promised English-language edition of this book, if it is indeed detailed, truthful, and well illustrated. Please keep us informed.

PDF

Rocher, Alexis - Super Mirage 4000, the unfulfilled dream (digital edition)

Super Mirage 4000 The unfulfilled dream The Super Mirage 4000 as told by its engineers and pilots By Alexis Rocher Launched on the personal initiative of Marcel Dassault, the Super Mirage 4000 is the last European combat aircraft to be financed by its manufacturer’s own funds. After...

www.skyshelf.eu

Paper

Rocher, Alexis - Super Mirage 4000, the unfulfilled dream (paper edition)*

Super Mirage 4000 The unfulfilled dream The Super Mirage 4000 as told by its engineers and pilots By Alexis Rocher

www.skyshelf.eu

You can buy it from the link above in English.

 

[Owens Z]

You can buy it from the link above in English.

Good; thank you for clarifying.