Mirage 4000 vs ACF

[Ad Sumus]

If you want to go that way, then your best best is the Mirage 3000. Somewhere on this forum is my research related to it.

Edit: there it is, scroll down a bit. https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/mirage-3000.757/

Imagine a scaled-down Mirage 4000 - scaled down thanks to RB.199s replacing the M53s. This essentially shrinks it from F-15 size (and cost) to F-18 size (I won't say "cost" here as the Hornet was controversial, to say the least).

If that scaled down Mirage 4000 flies like the original one, it can be done by March 1979. Took a bit more than six years (1978-1984) to get the 2000 from first flight (March 10, 1978) to IOC (July 1984, Dijon air base).

Starting in 1979 or 1980 for the 3000, could get its IOC by 1986 - ironically, the year the Rafale demonstrator flew.

Note that the 3000 could complete the 2000 rather than replacing it.

Big problem: SNECMA would scream like hell... or maybe not, if the 2000 with THEIR M53 survived along the 3000. Depends who would manufacture the RB.199 under licence. Could be SNECMA, but could also be Turboméca.

And yes, it would look like a Bae P.110: buble canopy, canards, twin RB.199s...

Sounds interesting. But wasn't the RB.199 performance at medium and high altitude less-than-stellar for a fighter?

 

[Archibald]

You have a point there. But SNECMA had no matching engine, and Dassaut is trying to get the Brits onboard before the Germans step in so... not much of a choice. Of course the XJ30 & XJ40 are coming: and the EJ200 along them.

 

[F-2]

You have a point there. But SNECMA had no matching engine, and Dassaut is trying to get the Brits onboard before the Germans step in so... not much of a choice. Of course the XJ30 & XJ40 are coming: and the EJ200 along them.

Could you make an engine out of the XJ40 rather than an engine inspired by it? It was ran at full power the first time in 1988 before the EJ200DVE engines first ran.

 

[Hood]

In one of the Kew files on the Tactical Combat Aircraft (TCA) I came across a document written in 1979 regarding worries about the French gaining illicit access to RB.199 technology to improve the M88 via Turbomeca's agreement with Rolls-Royce on developing the RTM.322 turboshaft, or via SNECMA's own MTU contacts. The document goes on to say that a lot of hard work had been put into IP protection on the RTM.322 contract to try and prevent this leakage.

Basically the view at the time was that the RB.199 core was far superior to what SNECMA could achieve and that France was being obstructive in not cooperating on an engine by insisting that the M88 had to be used.

 

[Archibald]

I remember you discussed that matter before. "Perfide Albion" as usual, hmmm.
Pfffff.
I readily agree that SNECMA was lagging behind - it drove Dassault crazy. They really busted their rear ends going from M53 (barely average compared to its competitors of the 1970's) to M88 (more or less a match to the F404 - 414 and EJ200).
RR worries were founded TBH, as SNECMA had just scored a big hit with the CFM56: snatching the F101 core via the civilian market, and while it was too late for the M53, it did wonders to the M88.