Messerschmitt Me 321/323, pre- and follow-on projects (ZSO 523)

[foiling]

Great find; big thanks Jemiba.

 

[hesham]

Got "Deutsche Lastensegler" by Heint Mankau and Peter Petrick for a bargain price this
week, interesting compendium of the German tarnsport and assault gliders. It contains a
drawing of the Zeppelin Messerschmitt ZMe 323G, a Me 323 development delegated
to Zeppelin, which would have been powered by six GR 14R engines and with the cockpit
located further forward, clearly the precursor to the ZSO 523.

Great find my dear Jemiba.

 

[Jemiba]

.. and overlooked until now, the Me 323F, with Jumo 211 inlilne engines and raised cockpit:

 

[hesham]

Hi,


here is a report about Me.323G and a drawing to Me.323H Project;


http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me%20323/Me%20323%20Handbuch.pdf


http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me%20323/Skizze%201.jpg

 

[hesham]

Incredible,


the Messeschmitt Me.321 used as a mother ship for parasite aircraft Bf.110 ?.


http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me%20321/Huckepack%20Me%20323%20Blatt%202.jpg


http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me%20321/Huckepack%20Me%20323.jpg

 

[Jemiba]

Nope, it's a proposal to use the "Tragschlepp" (carrying tow) method to launch the Me 321.
Until the development of the He 111Z there was only the Ju 90 capable to tow the Me 321
alone and tghen not even fully loaded. So the "Troika-Schlepp" was developed, with 3 Me 110
towing a single Me 321. That proved to be possible but dangerous, so that method was proposed,
but never tested or even used operationally.

 

[Avimimus]

Does anyone know where I could find a drawing of the Me 323E-2/WT??
I've always been curious about that bit of madness... I think it would've been the largest escort fighter ever.

 

[Johnbr]

;D

 

[Jemiba]

The only drawing I could find, unfortunately quite small, is from Ernst Peter "Giganti":

 

[Johnbr]

 

[Jemiba]

Heureka, a drawing of the E-2/WT with at least a partial top view, showing the
nose turret and the positions of the four wing mounted turrets.
Source was an issue from FiegerRevue, but I'm not sure, my ACDSee description
file isn't readable anymore ... :-\

 

[hesham]

Nope, it's a proposal to use the "Tragschlepp" (carrying tow) method to launch the Me 321.
Until the development of the He 111Z there was only the Ju 90 capable to tow the Me 321
alone and tghen not even fully loaded. So the "Troika-Schlepp" was developed, with 3 Me 110
towing a single Me 321. That proved to be possible but dangerous, so that method was proposed,
but never tested or even used operationally.

Thank you my dear Jemiba.

 

[robunos]

Heureka, a drawing of the E-2/WT with at least a partial top view, showing the
nose turret and the positions of the four wing mounted turrets.
Source was an issue from FiegerRevue, but I'm not sure, my ACDSee description
file isn't readable anymore ... :-\

I believe the original image comes from 'Warplanes of the Third Reich'...

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Avimimus]

Heureka, a drawing of the E-2/WT with at least a partial top view, showing the
nose turret and the positions of the four wing mounted turrets.
Source was an issue from FiegerRevue, but I'm not sure, my ACDSee description
file isn't readable anymore ... :-\

Thank you sir - fascinating.

 

[Jemiba]

I believe the original image comes from 'Warplanes of the Third Reich'...

Yes, this may be correct. The FliegerRevue magazine probably often used "ready made"
drawings, too. The style with seceral side views and just a single top and front view
could be found quite often there, and I scanned quite a lot of articles from FliegerRevue
issues. Since I've4 switched to Win 7, I cannot open several (not all !) descript.ion
files (ACDSee description files) anymore, not even using a text editor.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

http://d.afwing.com/aircraft/me323_4.html

 

[hesham]

From; Die Giganten Me-321 Me-323

 

[hesham]

From Kryl'ya Rodine 1/2018,

a clearer view to Me.261 Project.

 

[ermeio]

I have found this photo of a strange German Relic in Italy during WW-2. It looks like a 4-engined Me 323. Any info on that. I also thought about a combination of a scrapper Arado and a Me 321 glider.

 

[Hood]

There looks to be only one engine on the starboard wing. I think its just that the inner engines have fallen off the wing when the engine bearer structure failed following the fire. The forward fuselage looks to be completely destroyed so its no wonder the inboard engines wouldn't have survived to remain on the wing.

 

[Dball]

I have found this photo of a strange German Relic in Italy during WW-2. It looks like a 4-engined Me 323. Any info on that. I also thought about a combination of a scrapper Arado and a Me 321 glider.

If the pic you posted of the devastated airframe is genuine and is not doctored ( a tactic used by the all-lies in massively overwhelming occasions to push narratives) in any way then that just might be the Me323 V-1 which as far as I know was the ONLY Me323 propelled by 4 engines instead of 6

 

[dan_inbox]

The 323V1 in better days :

 

[hesham]

From Aeroplane monthly 1977.

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WWIIplanes/comments/zaa2jw

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WWIIplanes/comments/zaa2jw/german_halftrack_towing_a_light_artillery_piece/

 

[hesham]

From Aeroplane 1943.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Jemiba,


and here is early prototype drawing to Me.321,differed from the production one.

The source,Waffen-Arsenal - Special Band 06 - Giganten der Luft - Messerschnitt Me 321, 323 HQ,

a clearer view.

 

[Adler]

There is a huge (17 pages!) article on the ZSO 523 Super Gigant in the German Luftfahrt History N°8. It is packed with photos and drawings (mostly from the RLM reference documents) which has to be the definitive source. I'm only posting a few here, without captions or technical details, and in medium-sized quality, but for anyone interested in German (and French) projects, this is a must. It also contains a similarly packed article on the Junkers EF 94/Ju 322 Mammut.

More information here:
http://www.lautecmedien.de/luftfahrt_history-_die_neue_luftfahrtzeitschrift.php

Hello, the link does not seem to work, do you by chance still have this article?

 

[Stargazer]

Hello, the link does not seem to work, do you by chance still have this article?

Unfortunately I've only got the book itself, no PDF of it. And the way it's bound makes it impossible to scan without damaging the spine.

 

[Adler]

Unfortunately I've only got the book itself, no PDF of it. And the way it's bound makes it impossible to scan without damaging the spine.
Ufortunately I've only got the book itself, no PDF of it. And the way it's bound makes it impossible to scan without damaging the spine.

I am looking for information on the Junkers Goliath (larger, never-built precursor to the Ju 322), but there is barely any information on it whatsoever. I know the wingspan to be 82.35 meters, and there is this rudimentary diagram from Heinz J. Nowarra's "- German Gliders in World War II". If there is any information on this project in that book that you can send me (no need to scan, a simple photograph will do), I will greatly appreciate it.

 

[Stargazer]

I am looking for information on the Junkers Goliath (larger, never-built precursor to the Ju 322), but there is barely any information on it whatsoever. I know the wingspan to be 82.35 meters, and there is this rudimentary diagram from Heinz J. Nowarra's "- German Gliders in World War II". If there is any information on this project in that book that you can send me (no need to scan, a simple photograph will do), I will greatly appreciate it.

Ah, but the article I mentioned deals only with the ZSO 523, with a bit on the Messerschmitt gliders that led to it. Nothing about that Junkers project I'm afraid. Do you have an approximate date for it? I have many Junkers projects, but not this one.

 

[Jemiba]

The Luftfahrt History Issue N°8 dealt with both, the ZSO 523, as well as the Junkers Ju 322, with the short mention, that the Junkers EF 94 got the name "Goliath" at first, but was renamed during its development into the Ju 322 as "Mammut" ..

 

[Adler]

Ah, but the article I mentioned deals only with the ZSO 523, with a bit on the Messerschmitt gliders that led to it. Nothing about that Junkers project I'm afraid. Do you have an approximate date for it? I have many Junkers projects, but not this one.

The project I am referring to is the original proposal for the Junkers Ju 322 from December of 1940. It was designated as the EF 94, however was redesigned shortly thereafter, and kept its designation. I assume publications on the Ju 322 Mammut would have information regarding this earlier proposal.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Cover art

 

[Stargazer]

The Luftfahrt History Issue N°8 dealt with both, the ZSO 523, as well as the Junkers Ju 322, with the short mention, that the Junkers EF 94 got the name "Goliath" at first, but was renamed during its development into the Ju 322 as "Mammut" ..

Thanks for this, Jens. Your photo makes me realize that I do NOT own that book, I got confused and mixed it up with another publication about the ZSO 523 (sorry, @Adler )

I actually DO have the EF 94 in my files, here's the two pics I have:

 

[Justo Miranda]

Some additional info here

 

[Justo Miranda]

Post-2

 

[Justo Miranda]

Post-3

 

[Justo Miranda]

Post-4

 

[Justo Miranda]

Post-5

 

[Adler]

For the Messerschmitt Me 323, there also appears to be a Zwilling variant. Reportedly one built as a prototype for a superheavy bomber, but crashed on its first flight. No photographs or blueprints whatsoever, but many references to it. Does anyone have Me 323 production/modification logbooks or applicable RLM archives to check this?