Messerschmitt Me 262 Development & Politics by Dan Sharp

[newsdeskdan]

Quite a bit actually. The biggest problem for Messerschmitt was they never got a satisfactory engine for it. At the end of the war, the French got most of the documentation and other materials for Enzian and were the only country to do anything post war with it. Sud Est was the primary contractor and ended up with only one operational design out of it that became a tactical SSM.

Seems like Messerschmitt ended the war with 30 E I type airframe and propulsion systems completed and wanted 1) 20 warheads and 2) permission to fire them all off. Presumably that wasn't granted.

Definitely a lot of interesting variants of it.

 

[Calum Douglas]

Seems like Messerschmitt ended the war with 30 E I type airframe and propulsion systems completed and wanted 1) 20 warheads and 2) permission to fire them all off. Presumably that wasn't granted.

Definitely a lot of interesting variants of it.View attachment 741364

View attachment 741365

I`ve got all the German guided missile mathematics, from the usual source. Most of it was probably used on this.

Sadly I think its of interest to about 0.0000000001% of the historical community.

(Its a Volkenröde translation, hence in English)

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Seems like Messerschmitt ended the war with 30 E I type airframe and propulsion systems completed and wanted 1) 20 warheads and 2) permission to fire them all off. Presumably that wasn't granted.

Definitely a lot of interesting variants of it.View attachment 741364

View attachment 741365
View attachment 741400

The E 5 version was a proposed supersonic one that Messerschmitt had limited data on in terms of flight. It was to use the Conrad 109-613 (T Zg 613A01 which was actually a pretty good design) for propulsion.

The biggest limitation the Germans had was their knowledge and production capacity on solid fuel rocket engines, in a word, sucked. They had liquid fuel engines down and were state-of-the-art, but all they had for all intents in solid fuel was Diglycol an obsolescent nitrocellulose propellant available pre-war.

 

[newsdeskdan]

The E 5 version was a proposed supersonic one that Messerschmitt had limited data on in terms of flight. It was to use the Conrad 109-613 (T Zg 613A01 which was actually a pretty good design) for propulsion.

The biggest limitation the Germans had was their knowledge and production capacity on solid fuel rocket engines, in a word, sucked. They had liquid fuel engines down and were state-of-the-art, but all they had for all intents in solid fuel was Diglycol an obsolescent nitrocellulose propellant available pre-war.

Detail on E 5 does seem to be rather scant. Aiming for Mach 2 speed, 2.6m wingspan, mostly made of wood. Certainly, GL had ordered Messerschmitt to stop working on it by March 22, 1945. Most of the reports I have on Enzian seem to concern the E 1 variant.

They don't seem to have done too badly with it though, going from a standing start with the first Flakrakete I drawings in mid-June 1943 to having 20 E 1 units ready to fire in March 1945.

 

[TsrJoe]

A bit OT. from the 262 thread, iv oft been curious if the UK. tested the Enzian, the example at Cosford being painted in a 'target drone' colour scheme ? the E number on the tail suggesting a UK. experimental contract specification ?

 

[newsdeskdan]

A bit OT. from the 262 thread, iv oft been curious if the UK. tested the Enzian, the example at Cosford being painted in a 'target drone' colour scheme ? the E number on the tail suggesting a UK. experimental contract specification ?

The Enzian variant manufactured in quantity was known as the E 1 (aka E I, with a Roman numeral I rather than a number 1). Presumably the tail markings indicate that this was the 59th example.

As to the colours... I've no information (EDIT: perhaps not entirely true - see post #130 below) on what colour the 30 or so completed E 1s actually were. It was an 'experimental' series, so perhaps they were painted in those bright colours originally to make observation in flight easier.

EDIT: That's 30 or so completed and unlaunched E 1s. I'm not entirely certain how many were actually test-fired. The total launched by the end of 1944 appears to have been at least 10, with production, at that point, progressing at a rate of four completed units per week. So it is entirely possible - likely, even - that 'EI/59' was literally the 59th completed E 1, rather than 59 being some arbitrary number.

 

[newsdeskdan]

The Enzian variant manufactured in quantity was known as the E 1 (aka E I, with a Roman numeral I rather than a number 1). Presumably the tail markings indicate that this was the 59th example.

As to the colours... I've no information on what colour the 30 or so completed E 1s actually were. It was an 'experimental' series, so perhaps they were painted in those bright colours originally to make observation in flight easier.

Re-orienting things slightly to the Me 262, it's a testament to how completely Me 262 production had been taken out of Messerschmitt's hands by Speer's Ministry for Armaments and War Production (initially by its Jaegerstab offshoot, then later by the ministry itself) that Enzian could exist at all.

 

[TomcatViP]

UK prototypes at the time had often their bottom surface painted yellow for ground tracking and identification. I would see the yellow paint applied on the entire body as a consequence of the flight trajectory and small size of the Enzian.

 

[Arjen]

German stenciled text on yellow paint job - I think yellow top, red bottom was its colour when captured.

 

[newsdeskdan]

UK prototypes at the time had often their bottom surface painted yellow for ground tracking and identification. I would see the yellow paint applied on the entire body as a consequence of the flight trajectory and small size of the Enzian.

Given that the E 1 at NASM (looks like EI/58...?) is in the same colours - and period photos of captured E 1s seem to show it too - I'm also inclined to think that the yellow/red is actually the original German scheme.

Captured:


NASM:


UK (Cosford):

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Detail on E 5 does seem to be rather scant. Aiming for Mach 2 speed, 2.6m wingspan, mostly made of wood. Certainly, GL had ordered Messerschmitt to stop working on it by March 22, 1945. Most of the reports I have on Enzian seem to concern the E 1 variant.

They don't seem to have done too badly with it though, going from a standing start with the first Flakrakete I drawings in mid-June 1943 to having 20 E 1 units ready to fire in March 1945.

The E-1 and -2 are the main two that were tested. Messerschmitt had to use 109-500 engines (modified JATO units). The difference is the E-1 is the standard JATO running on Z stoff an T stoff, while the -2 uses Ergol (synthetic gasoline) and T stoff. Both left the Enzian badly under powered but there were enough to get the missile flight tested. Both versions did about 390 mph in flight. That's far too slow to make a useful SAM.

The E-3 was to use the Walther 109-739 but Walther works could never get it to work correctly so that was abandoned towards the end of 1944 for the E-4 (Conrad 109-613) as that engine worked and there were something like a couple dozen available.

Messerschmitt did get the warhead right fitting a 500 kg one. All the missile had to do was get close to take down a bomber.

This is the French Sud Est 4350 that was derived from the Messerschmitt E-5 design post war. It was used mostly for flight testing and guidance development as part the French SA (Sol Air) 10 program.

This is the turbojet version that Sud Est developed as a tactical SSM. It carries a 250 or 500 kg bomb under the fuselage.

Two brigades of rocket artillery used it for a few years until something better came along.

 

[newsdeskdan]

The E-1 and -2 are the main two that were tested. Messerschmitt had to use 109-500 engines (modified JATO units). The difference is the E-1 is the standard JATO running on Z stoff an T stoff, while the -2 uses Ergol (synthetic gasoline) and T stoff. Both left the Enzian badly under powered but there were enough to get the missile flight tested. Both versions did about 390 mph in flight. That's far too slow to make a useful SAM.

The E-3 was to use the Walther 109-739 but Walther works could never get it to work correctly so that was abandoned towards the end of 1944 for the E-4 (Conrad 109-613) as that engine worked and there were something like a couple dozen available.

Messerschmitt did get the warhead right fitting a 500 kg one. All the missile had to do was get close to take down a bomber.

Hey, well, good luck with the book - is it possible to say where and when it'll be available?

 

[robunos]

Dumb question, but was any thought given to an operational piston engined Me262 version, perhaps even as a stop-gap ?

cheers,
Robin.

 

[GTX]

Dumb question, but was any thought given to an operational piston engined Me262 version, perhaps even as a stop-gap ?

cheers,
Robin.

Why would they? Might as well just stay with Bf109/FW190 already in service/production.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Dumb question, but was any thought given to an operational piston engined Me262 version, perhaps even as a stop-gap ?

cheers,
Robin.

There was some thought given to a DB 021 turboprop powered variant. Not for very long though.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Hey, well, good luck with the book - is it possible to say where and when it'll be available?

I'm thinking about another 4 to 6 months as it isn't a full-time thing for me.

 

[newsdeskdan]

I'm thinking about another 4 to 6 months as it isn't a full-time thing for me.

I know what you mean. I work a full-time day job and I often have 'dad stuff' to do with my kids at weekends. I therefore do all my researching/writing in the evenings. Archive visits require the use of annual leave. It took about 8 months to write Messerschmitt Me 262 Development & Politics that way.

I aim to write a minimum of 1,000w of usable, print-ready text per evening, every evening including weekends. So a 150,000w book like Messerschmitt Me 262 Development & Politics should take 150 days - 5 months. In reality there will always be some days when it's impossible to write, or when I just can't hit 1.000w. Then there's the images - several hundred that need cleaning up, stitching together from fragments etc. Finding, managing, transcribing and translating the original source documents also takes... a while.

 

[pathology_doc]

I`ve got all the German guided missile mathematics, from the usual source. Most of it was probably used on this.

Sadly I think its of interest to about 0.0000000001% of the historical community.

(Its a Volkenröde translation, hence in English)

What is this "usual source", and how do I obtain it?

Man, that Enzian is primitive as hell. But as a first-generation (Zeroth-generation?) proto-SAM, it's also fascinating. I could happily read a very, very large book dealing with it alone.

Dumb question, but was any thought given to an operational piston engined Me262 version, perhaps even as a stop-gap ?

cheers,
Robin.

I'm going to be extremely cheeky and very unserious in suggesting that yes, there was, and it was called the Me309.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I know what you mean. I work a full-time day job and I often have 'dad stuff' to do with my kids at weekends. I therefore do all my researching/writing in the evenings. Archive visits require the use of annual leave. It took about 8 months to write Messerschmitt Me 262 Development & Politics that way.

I aim to write a minimum of 1,000w of usable, print-ready text per evening, every evening including weekends. So a 150,000w book like Messerschmitt Me 262 Development & Politics should take 150 days - 5 months. In reality there will always be some days when it's impossible to write, or when I just can't hit 1.000w. Then there's the images - several hundred that need cleaning up, stitching together from fragments etc. Finding, managing, transcribing and translating the original source documents also takes... a while.

Ugg... images and clean up. I hate the Russians... Try to time it to do 1 to 2 hours a day but don't always hit that. Being old and retarded... err retired--twice!-- slows things down too.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

What is this "usual source", and how do I obtain it?

Man, that Enzian is primitive as hell. But as a first-generation (Zeroth-generation?) proto-SAM, it's also fascinating. I could happily read a very, very large book dealing with it alone.


I'm going to be extremely cheeky and very unserious in suggesting that yes, there was, and it was called the Me309.

There are a lot of early SAM designs out there that aren't well known, that's why those of us into this stuff need a book on it.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I`ve got all the German guided missile mathematics, from the usual source. Most of it was probably used on this.

Sadly I think its of interest to about 0.0000000001% of the historical community.

(Its a Volkenröde translation, hence in English)

View attachment 741399

Yea, I have a pile of US ones from the NACA and various manufacturers on that. They're almost worthless from a perspective of an historical narrative.

 

[robunos]

Why would they? Might as well just stay with Bf109/FW190 already in service/production.

There was some thought given to a DB 021 turboprop powered variant. Not for very long though.

I'm going to be extremely cheeky and very unserious in suggesting that yes, there was, and it was called the Me309.

@Apophenia; my line of thought was that a piston engined 262 might have better performance than the Bf109 version then in production, if the 262 airframe could be fitted with the DB603. Then, once the 004 engine is both sufficiently available AND reliable, production can transition to the 004 powered version.
@newsdeskdan; I was aware of the turboprop version, but I beleive that the 021 engine was even farther behind than the 004 . . .
@pathology_doc; As stated above, the idea is to replace the 309 with a DB603 powered 262, then eventually, a 004 powered version.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

@Apophenia; my line of thought was that a piston engined 262 might have better performance than the Bf109 version then in production, if the 262 airframe could be fitted with the DB603. Then, once the 004 engine is both sufficiently available AND reliable, production can transition to the 004 powered version.
@newsdeskdan; I was aware of the turboprop version, but I beleive that the 021 engine was even farther behind than the 004 . . .
@pathology_doc; As stated above, the idea is to replace the 309 with a DB603 powered 262, then eventually, a 004 powered version.

cheers,
Robin.

Let's see...

Now, this rough using round numbers for a starting point.

Assuming you are replacing the two turbojets with a piston engine of one sort or another, say a BMW 801 or a DB 603, you find:

Me 262 weight with piston engine installed equals roughly 7,500 lbs. This compares to an Me 109 at about 6,500 lbs. and FW 190 at about 8,500 lbs. So, you end up, at best, with a fighter that is no better than what the Germans already have in service using piston engines.

 

[pathology_doc]

So, you end up, at best, with a fighter that is no better than what the Germans already have in service using piston engines.

The reason to replace the 109 at all is, as I understand it, because the airframe has reached its limits. IRL the DB603 never amounted to its full potential, but the idea is that you have both an airframe and an engine with more growth potential, not just extra performance.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The reason to replace the 109 at all is, as I understand it, because the airframe has reached its limits. IRL the DB603 never amounted to its full potential, but the idea is that you have both an airframe and an engine with more growth potential, not just extra performance.

On the other hand, during a war you go with what works and what you've go. Curtiss aircraft in the US tried to develop a number of fighters to replace the P-40 and compete with the P-47 and P-51. They never managed to get it quite right. Messerschmitt seems to have had the same issue with the 109. The jet Me 262 was, in 1944, the next great thing for German fighters. Henkel's He 280 could have been another.

It would seem that politics and myopia got in the way.

 

[Ivan Culjak]

It was George Schairer that sent an urgent letter, while still in Germany, to his colleague Bernard Cohn at Boeing to re-design the B-47 for a swept wing, not R.T. Jones.

Von Kármán had been present at the 5th Volta congress in 1935 at Rome where Busemann presented his paper that included his swept wing theory, but had not paid much attention to it, like most people outside Germany. At his visit to Germany in 1945 Busemann reminded him of that presentation and von Kármán then said something like "I should have known".

Right, but I can't immediately see that hohun said that R.T Jones sent "stop the bomber letter", but ok..
I would like to ask for the other people they met (except than Busemann) . My guess is that Richard Vogt should be there...
It seems that Vogt had very good relations with AVA, he ended in Paperclip, worked with Schraier, B@V did mostly advanced projects not production...so do you maybe have any info in this sense

 

[Ivan Culjak]

The strangest thing is that so much of the information presented by Calum and myself comes across as 'new'. It has been available in archives for decades but has seemingly been ignored for some reason.

In terms of an overlap between the Me 262 and Me 309 books, the Me 262 book was written first. It was only while writing that that I realised the Me 309 story was also worth telling. Up to then I think everyone, including myself, had regarded the Me 309 as a mere curiosity which nobody really took particularly seriously. Instead, the evidence surprisingly indicated that it was the designated successor to the Bf 109 in German air ministry plans for well over a year - and an aircraft of critical importance.

Both the Me 309 and Me 328 books provide important back-story to the Me 262 book. While working on the Me 309 book I found a quote from Woldemar Voigt in a report labelled Me 109 mit DB 603 from January 1, 1943 (see p133 of the Me 309 book) - while Messerschmitt was trying to get the Me 209 installed in the 309's place - which essentially notes that it would be better to build a 109 with the DB 603, if possible, than to start again from scratch with the 309. Voigt then says: "Achieving this goal would probably be of crucial importance, especially because a fundamental change in the production of the high-performance fighter with the introduction of the jet engines may be imminent in the near future."

So jets are coming soon eh? My understanding of the Me 262 up to that point was that neither Willy Messerschmitt nor Voigt were much interested in it at that stage. Yet here is Voigt predicting big things on the jet front. When I read that, I was fairly horrified. Had I been wrong about the Me 262?

It wasn't until I started working on the Me 328 book that I realised Voigt wasn't actually talking about the Me 262 in that document. He was (incredibly, with hindsight) referring instead to the Me 328. At this time, Voigt honestly thought that the Me 328 was going to be the mass produced jet fighter - when you transpose this onto the Me 328's development process, and what was being said about the Me 328 at this time, you can see it quite clearly.

The whole narrative that Messerschmitt battled bureaucracy to try and get the Me 262 into production is (again, quite surprisingly) a fabrication - the Messerschmitt company pushed hard for the Me 209 as the piston-engine replacement for the Bf 109 and the Me 328 as the Luftwaffe's cheap mass-produced jet fighter. It was only later, immediately after the war, that the notion of the Me 262's greatness having been recognised all along came to prominence. Voigt and Messerschmitt were not the sort of people to openly admit that they'd been backing the wrong horses for such a long time.

I have just bought and read a book, it's s simply excellent . But, I do admit to catch myself trying to zoom like on tablet to get some details better..it would be great to have it as digital, but I do understand your reasons behind...
There are two first thoughts I would like to comment, even if it could be actually written somewhere in the book. First is relatively few info on development of R4M compared with different cannon option . I have got impression that R4M is the right weapon for Me262 in anti bomber role - very light, almost the same trajectory as Mk108 but twice as range, which was crucial...according the book "Sharks of the air" Messerschmitt was quite keen about it. But ok, if there is no documents..
Second thing is about HG variant, actually about in wing engine nacelles.. It is said that they went for podded engines due to fears of complexity of in wing solutions - and it seems quite logical and it has been completely justified by latter development. And then with HG variant they choose exactly this solution, even if He's 011 is bigger radius engine. OK, they needed a room for fuel in the fuselage, and a wing root placement is a step forward. But still, there was no bigger discussion about it, it seems as a big thing to me ..or HG variant was more about aerodynamics, researching swept wing, and so on... What's your opinion, how serious were they about HG variant.

 

[pathology_doc]

First is relatively few info on development of R4M compared with different cannon option . I have got impression that R4M is the right weapon for Me262 in anti bomber role - very light, almost the same trajectory as Mk108 but twice as range, which was crucial...according the book "Sharks of the air" Messerschmitt was quite keen about it. But ok, if there is no documents..

I think this is because the book is mostly about the development of the aircraft rather than an in-depth history of the weapons that went into it. That being said, if there isn't already a modern English-language "guns, rockets and missiles of Hitler's Luftwaffe" reference work that's written to Calum Douglas levels of detail, there needs to be.

 

[newsdeskdan]

I have just bought and read a book, it's s simply excellent . But, I do admit to catch myself trying to zoom like on tablet to get some details better..it would be great to have it as digital, but I do understand your reasons behind...
There are two first thoughts I would like to comment, even if it could be actually written somewhere in the book. First is relatively few info on development of R4M compared with different cannon option . I have got impression that R4M is the right weapon for Me262 in anti bomber role - very light, almost the same trajectory as Mk108 but twice as range, which was crucial...according the book "Sharks of the air" Messerschmitt was quite keen about it. But ok, if there is no documents..
Second thing is about HG variant, actually about in wing engine nacelles.. It is said that they went for podded engines due to fears of complexity of in wing solutions - and it seems quite logical and it has been completely justified by latter development. And then with HG variant they choose exactly this solution, even if He's 011 is bigger radius engine. OK, they needed a room for fuel in the fuselage, and a wing root placement is a step forward. But still, there was no bigger discussion about it, it seems as a big thing to me ..or HG variant was more about aerodynamics, researching swept wing, and so on... What's your opinion, how serious were they about HG variant.

What source does Harvey give for his R4M info in Sharks of the Air? It seems that the fitment of R4M racks wasn't something that originated with Messerschmitt.

HG series - Knemeyer tasked Messerschmitt with developing the Me 262 further, resulting in the HG series. It doesn't appear as though there were ever any plans to put anything derived from the HG series into mass production, if that's what you mean.

 

[newsdeskdan]

I think this is because the book is mostly about the development of the aircraft rather than an in-depth history of the weapons that went into it. That being said, if there isn't already a modern English-language "guns, rockets and missiles of Hitler's Luftwaffe" reference work that's written to Calum Douglas levels of detail, there needs to be.

Exactly so. Messerschmitt Me 262 Development & Politics is focused more on the development of the aircraft as a whole and the politics that surrounded it, and less on the development of the weapons fitted to it. The engines get a little more attention though.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Dan,

HG series - Knemeyer tasked Messerschmitt with developing the Me 262 further, resulting in the HG series. It doesn't appear as though there were ever any plans to put anything derived from the HG series into mass production, if that's what you mean.

An HG aircraft is shown on p. 9 of this document on the progressive development of the Me 262, but that might be mainly as a performance reference point, considering that the document lists several less radical improvement steps first:

Herbert Thiess : Unterirdische Fluzeugfabrik Oberammergau : Me 262 Leistungssteigerung

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I have just bought and read a book, it's s simply excellent . But, I do admit to catch myself trying to zoom like on tablet to get some details better..it would be great to have it as digital, but I do understand your reasons behind...
There are two first thoughts I would like to comment, even if it could be actually written somewhere in the book. First is relatively few info on development of R4M compared with different cannon option . I have got impression that R4M is the right weapon for Me262 in anti bomber role - very light, almost the same trajectory as Mk108 but twice as range, which was crucial...according the book "Sharks of the air" Messerschmitt was quite keen about it. But ok, if there is no documents..
Second thing is about HG variant, actually about in wing engine nacelles.. It is said that they went for podded engines due to fears of complexity of in wing solutions - and it seems quite logical and it has been completely justified by latter development. And then with HG variant they choose exactly this solution, even if He's 011 is bigger radius engine. OK, they needed a room for fuel in the fuselage, and a wing root placement is a step forward. But still, there was no bigger discussion about it, it seems as a big thing to me ..or HG variant was more about aerodynamics, researching swept wing, and so on... What's your opinion, how serious were they about HG variant.

The reason pods / nacelles were chosen is almost certainly related to ducting air to the engine. Duct shape along with length determines intake to the engine, and at the time were poorly understood. That goes across the board, not just for the Germans. So, everybody saw using jet engines hung in nacelles under (or over) the wing, alongside the fuselage, etc., as the solution to the problem. That made duct length close to zero.

Bell Aircraft and McDonnell used wing root intakes of very short length. Glouster used mid-wing nacelles because the Whittle engine was very short. DeHavilland and Focke Wulf used very short fuselages with either side scoops (the Vampire) or a nose scoop (Ta 183). Henkel stuck the engine on top of the fuselage in the He 162.

This was very much uncharted territory at the time.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Hi Dan,



An HG aircraft is shown on p. 9 of this document on the progressive development of the Me 262, but that might be mainly as a performance reference point, considering that the document lists several less radical improvement steps first:

Herbert Thiess : Unterirdische Fluzeugfabrik Oberammergau : Me 262 Leistungssteigerung

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

The book does cover the HG series extensively. It seems as though the only avenue by which HG features might have entered series production was via the 2-TL night fighter competition.