It is the United States, the way the US fights is USAF bombs the crap out of everything with some people guarding the air bases wanting to jump into the action before the war is over or the US loses. Historically humans in holes can survive the USAF, but not if USAF can spam an kill-web from air deployment.

Given that even a belligerent Russian can't motivate America to commit consuming rubbish heap equipment, I don't think America is at all interested in conflict against powerful enemies in far away lands. A return to isolationism seems to be the name of the game.

Tank survivability is dependent on situational awareness, first shot, mobility, and stealth; no different than modern fighters and ships. Its not just one trait.

Tank survivability is dependent on combined arms and formation force structure. Wanting to have it all in one vehicle ..... well:

60 Independent Tank 1928.jpg

The idea of the MAIN battle tank is so damaging to thinking about vehicle design.
 
The idea of the MAIN battle tank is so damaging to thinking about vehicle design.
The idea of the Main Battle Tank is rooted in combat logistics. All your tanks use the same engines, the same tracks, the same suspensions, the same guns, the same ammunition. Which means that your stocks of spare parts are that much bigger, and relatively cheaper per item due to having probably 2-2.5x the total produced compared to having light, medium, and heavy tanks.
 
That and tech has come a long LONG way from even the 1990s.

Hell Im writing on a phone with more computering power then some of the eras SUPECOMPUTERS talking to people who are on the other side of the planet. That includes everything. My person truck has more bloodly horsepower then that thing Stock man.

A main battle tank makes sense and actually work when you consider that the IFVs has by large taken over the Light/Scout Role and makes far more sesne for that. Since the infantry it often needs to get in close and personal scouting comes with it.

Both the Track IFV and the MBT makes one HELL of a force that is extremely Flexible compare the old Light Medium and Heavy set up.

There is a reason why Everyone switch to MBTs. Cause the old system just stop making sense since that EVERY SINGLE Heavy Tank has always had the issues that people accurse the Abram of having. Add in the amount of armor a modern tank needs to survive another tank hit meanz a medium will end up being either as heavy or basically be a glorified assault gun. And you need that armor or else infantry starts having an even easier time to take tank out by being able to carry a 6 kilo weapon ( say the M4 Carl) instead of a 20 kilo one, like the Javalin.

So MBTs are that much better in all the ways from Tactical work to the all important Logi deals.

Throw in a light assault gun like vehicle, M10 Brooker beeps hello, to give make the Fast Deployers like Airborne a big gun? Among the many lighter Vehicles like Strykers, LAVs, and similar?

Well you got extremely flexible and fast deploying force that gives the enemy multiple major and double the amount of minor dilemmas.

And will murder a similar modern Light Medium and Heavy force set up since you will have more of everything to say nothing of better tactical and strategic flexibility.
 
MBTs today are just heavy tanks with a bigger engine. It is like, should Germany only build Tiger IIs if somehow it magically came across a 1000hp engine and reliable drivetrain?

Heavy tanks are evolutionary dead ends in an active arms race.

Guns and weapons are cheaper and lighter than armor, so arms race would simply result in:

Armor upgrade -> Gun upgrade -> armor ... all the way until the heaviest practical vehicle is built. Since gun is lighter and cheaper than armor, the heaviest practical vehicle will NOT have defensive immunity against an same in class vehicle. There is never a tank that can "take a hit" against itself if designs are balanced.

The practical design seeks to defeat anti-infantry weapons, longer range threats (artillery, missiles) and light anti-tank threats (towed guns, ATGM) not seeking to defeat another 50+ ton platform's weapon.

The practical medium tank, with survivability features against lighter threats and a big weapon capable of defeating the "heaviest practical vehicle" ought to be vehicle of choice for nations not interesting wasting money on multiple generations of vehicles in "overmatch."

Shooting first with powerful weapons is the right way to success.
 
MBTs today are just heavy tanks with a bigger engine. It is like, should Germany only build Tiger IIs if somehow it magically came across a 1000hp engine and reliable drivetrain?

Heavy tanks are evolutionary dead ends in an active arms race.

Guns and weapons are cheaper and lighter than armor, so arms race would simply result in:

Armor upgrade -> Gun upgrade -> armor ... all the way until the heaviest practical vehicle is built. Since gun is lighter and cheaper than armor, the heaviest practical vehicle will NOT have defensive immunity against an same in class vehicle. There is never a tank that can "take a hit" against itself if designs are balanced.

The practical design seeks to defeat anti-infantry weapons, longer range threats (artillery, missiles) and light anti-tank threats (towed guns, ATGM) not seeking to defeat another 50+ ton platform's weapon.

The practical medium tank, with survivability features against lighter threats and a big weapon capable of defeating the "heaviest practical vehicle" ought to be vehicle of choice for nations not interesting wasting money on multiple generations of vehicles in "overmatch."

Shooting first with powerful weapons is the right way to success.
Oh, you mean a T64?
 
In this era, even a bradley is a functional medium tank since TOW can kill the best defended vehicle in some theaters especially when fighting in a defensive posture. I think of it as an improvement of tank desant.
 
The practical design seeks to defeat anti-infantry weapons, longer range threats (artillery, missiles) and light anti-tank threats (towed guns, ATGM) not seeking to defeat another 50+ ton platform's weapon.

Shooting first with powerful weapons is the right way to success.
Thing is to Stop the Inflanty Weapons?

IE the nearly 50 pound or 22 kilogram Javelin Missile which a Inflantry Squad can carry 4 reroads for nearly as many miles as its weighs?

YOU NEED THE CURRENT AMOUNT OF ARMOR IF NOT MORE.


Point blank unless you feel like allowing the Infantry an easier time by allowing them to down grade to a Carl Gustav Recoilless rifle, which they can carry even more of both Tube and Ammo wise, you need that 40 plus ton of armor. Like the Army has shot Javelins against M1s before and the result was that at best not a crewmember dies, at worse only the driver survives. Depending on hit location and if the ammo doors are open or not.

IRC those was on the M1A1a so a roughly 60 ton tank is the minimum to survive a man portable system.

Thats how deadly a manportable weapon system can be these days. And the Javelin is pushing 30 years old even with all the upgrades. Imagine what a full modernize system can do.

If you have that much weight, well like you said gun and ammo weighs nothing in comparison so may as well fit a weapon that can go against a similar vehicle...

Oh wait we are back square one aint we?
 
The practical medium tank, with survivability features against lighter threats and a big weapon capable of defeating the "heaviest practical vehicle" ought to be vehicle of choice for nations not interesting wasting money on multiple generations of vehicles in "overmatch."
Unfortunately people didn't, and still don't care about that, which is why we got things lik AbramsX in the first place.

It's quite literally impossible to overmatch the tank because it's one area where the ability to maintain parity is the easiest. Even in ODF Iraqi T-72Ms racked up a few kills, and they are literally early 60s level of tech.

The "silver bullet" option is the thing people want nowadays, because it looks cool on social media, and the crews get happy about operating Optimum Pride or whatever, before enemy tacair blows the 200-esqe super tanks that each cost 10mil to dust with glide bombs and VBIEDs.

The optimum MBT is one that you can buy en mass, store for long durations, has decent built in future proofing, and easy to train crew on, because they are literally designed to go head first in assaults, tank fires, die, rinse and repeat. Certainly not a modern Maus loaded with tiny ESSMs, Epirus HPMs and mini laser turrets. Anything like that would still dies to a focused barrage of HJ-10 tbh, or 155mm HTK rounds.

It would look like a Leopard 2 tbh. There's not many way to design "modular armour" withoout going to the basic route of rectangle which is what the Type 10 and Leo 2 went with, though Leo was more of NERA array optimization. Not to mention, the Leo has it all: design architecture for modular hang-on stuff (new armour, APS, cameras etc), large internal space for future upgrades and fairly decent ergonomics ( alternate timeline: the US bought 2AVs instead of Chrysler XM1, what would they be using now :eek::eek::eek: )
 
YOU NEED THE CURRENT AMOUNT OF ARMOR IF NOT MORE.

...Like the Army has shot Javelins against M1s before and the result was that at best not a crewmember dies, at worse only the driver survives. Depending on hit location and if the ammo doors are open or not.

Thats how deadly a manportable weapon system can be these days. And the Javelin is pushing 30 years old even with all the upgrades. Imagine what a full modernize system can do.
Well, you should not attempt the impossible.

With all aspect attack munitions every part of the vehicle is vulnerable. Even 70 or 150 tons of armor is far from sufficient, and munitions can attack exterior weak points like tracks, sensors and weapons to induce kills regardless of armor.

So it is time to have a rethink of the idea of tank itself. The H44 144,000ton battleship concept to defeat dive bombers was not a successful line of development.

There are a few approaches:
1. Out range the opponent, shoot first: artillery
2. Use mass instead of protection to push through. Cheap/Drone tanks.
3. Active defense: APS, CRAM
4. Compartmentalization and redundancies (counter-example: soviet tank design)

Now different tactical requirements means different solutions are useful in different situations.

Also, until missile threats are comprehensively neutralized, it is pretty pointless to try to defeat guns. The opponent can just pull a north korea and weld missiles on tank roofs if missile defenses are insufficient while guns are neutralized.

Missile capabilities are a superset of guns, in that everything guns can do, missiles can do it too, except minimum range. If one is willing to spend on it, something like hypervelocity top attack is just a question of engineering and cost. As such, comprehensive missile defenses is universal defenses.
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The thing that will most closely replicate maneuver warfare is probably formations built on "extreme" levels of CRAM firepower. A local superiority that overmatches enemy firepower can maneuver freely. The only "weakness" of such formation can be lack of armor penetration, but that is not needed when it ought to sensor kill everything very quickly up to the horizon and beyond in most terrains, as this is required to work against high performance munitions.

CRAM capability can be also used in standoff engagements protecting your own long range forces in artillery duels and conduct counter ISR if there is insufficient mass to overwhelm enemy fire.
 
Ultimately the unmanned turret fad will die out and they will be forced to choose fully unmanned tank, or manned tank with man in the turret. The idea that we can get away without having someone there to troubleshoot issues is absurd.

Should an unmanned turret concept make it into production and we stick all the crew into the same point on the tank (going against any / all learned lessons regarding tank survivability).. well, we will learn the hard way at the cost of lives.
 
Ultimately the unmanned turret fad will die out and they will be forced to choose fully unmanned tank, or manned tank with man in the turret. The idea that we can get away without having someone there to troubleshoot issues is absurd.

Should an unmanned turret concept make it into production and we stick all the crew into the same point on the tank (going against any / all learned lessons regarding tank survivability).. well, we will learn the hard way at the cost of lives.
Unmanned turret makes the protected area smaller, and hence the tank smaller and lighter. It will not go away, I expect to be more widely adopted if anything.

If there's a problem with the turret, then the individual vehicle will be withdrawn and replaced.

Lessons regarding tank survivability show that if the tank is penetrated, the crew tend to abandon it.
 
then the individual vehicle will be withdrawn and replaced
Or you can just pop out the turret and screw a newer one into place.
Unmanned turret makes the protected area smaller, and hence the tank smaller and lighter
Also worth mentioning is that unmanned turrets also move the entire crew into the hull. Which is awesome for team communications.
You can literally look at each other eye-to-eye, or look at their monitors, and vice versa.
Crew arrangements like on T-74 or TTB permit interchangable crew stations, so if 1 guy is WIA, or is suffering from fatigue, the others can replace him. At the cost of reduced combat effectiveness, sure, but better than going out of hatch cover, or accept that you will be either unable to drive, or unable to shoot.
Full segregration of ammo from crew also helps.
Unmanned turrets offer to much to be rejected because of some stupid notion like "hull-level view" or poor situational awareness especially with modern cameras becoming ever cheaper and more capable and optical fibers being robust enough for use on tanks.
 
Or you can just pop out the turret and screw a newer one into place.
Requires having spare turrets you can drop in, which isn't likely at battalion, let alone company levels.

Also worth mentioning is that unmanned turrets also move the entire crew into the hull. Which is awesome for team communications.
You can literally look at each other eye-to-eye, or look at their monitors, and vice versa.
Crew arrangements like on T-74 or TTB permit interchangable crew stations, so if 1 guy is WIA, or is suffering from fatigue, the others can replace him. At the cost of reduced combat effectiveness, sure, but better than going out of hatch cover, or accept that you will be either unable to drive, or unable to shoot.
Full segregration of ammo from crew also helps.
Unmanned turrets offer to much to be rejected because of some stupid notion like "hull-level view" or poor situational awareness especially with modern cameras becoming ever cheaper and more capable and optical fibers being robust enough for use on tanks.
When the electronics go down in an Abrams you can flop open the hatches and look outside.

Any crew-in-hull design needs a "Total Camera Failure" backup mode.

For example, the Virginia class submarines have a single fiber optic backup in each periscope, above and beyond the cameras. So even if somehow all the cameras go down in both scopes, you can still see out. BTW, I've had a total electrical failure in a sub before. Idjit Electrician back in maneuvering cut in one generator 120deg out of phase, and the idjit sonar techs didn't realize how long it took for the displays to come back up after the ABT flipped. Displays didn't come back up quickly enough so they thought the ABT hadn't tripped, so the Sup went down to manually flip the ABT. Onto the dead power supply. Displays were coming back up after he left, then crashed again after the Sup flipped the ABT. He did that twice before sonar was down hard for hours as they had to run through a lot of overvolt etc tests before bringing it back up.
 
Also worth mentioning is that unmanned turrets also move the entire crew into the hull. Which is awesome for team communications.
You can literally look at each other eye-to-eye, or look at their monitors, and vice versa.
Crew arrangements like on T-74 or TTB permit interchangable crew stations, so if 1 guy is WIA, or is suffering from fatigue, the others can replace him. At the cost of reduced combat effectiveness, sure, but better than going out of hatch cover, or accept that you will be either unable to drive, or unable to shoot.
Full segregration of ammo from crew also helps.
Unmanned turrets offer to much to be rejected because of some stupid notion like "hull-level view" or poor situational awareness especially with modern cameras becoming ever cheaper and more capable and optical fibers being robust enough for use on tanks.
I really don't think team communications has EVER been an issue on a modern MBT. The fact of the matter is, you put all the crew together and up front.. they all die together and up front.

There will be VERY few scenarios wherein the tank takes damage and only a few are injured in some way. Survivability of a unmanned turret and 3 man hull crew tank goes down the drain. The only time this changes is from a defilade, which is suicide in modern day. You'll be too easily targeted and destroyed in this type of environment. Tanks becoming fighter jets for the ground, they can't rely on the internal technology for situational awareness... their range is limited. They need to be able to see from outside visual range...

Putting sensors all over the tank, even on the top of the turret will just get covered with mud or dust too quickly to remain useful. More than ever you'd see the crew exiting the hatch (and leaving the ENTIRE rest of the crew vulnerable) to do maintenance.

Further, the current weapons used on the tank and the systems have horrible reliability. There are constant jams, electrical failures, etc. They'd need to make very large strides in reliability to omit a crewman from the turret or assume the risk that you may simply not even be able to operate the vehicle in combat due to simple failures otherwise easily solved by a man in the turret.
Unmanned turrets are NOT the way to go. The level of complexity and assumed risk is too high, you either go fully unmanned or leave men in the turret. The future of manned tanks look more or less similar to the Nexter & KMW design.

A low profile turret (saves weight, turret cheeks aren't so tall but still thick).. the integrated trophy and improved top armor protection are noteworthy. The additional crewman in the hull assists in weapons operation or driving. The fatigue level for this crew is lower, the protection is higher. The capabilities remain otherwise equal to current MBT's. Improving protection through an unmanned turret is totally unnecessary if manned-unmanned teaming with local drones and other SA assets is done. To properly utilize tanks in the future we will need to integrate drones down to the platoon level of armored formations. These drones need to be autonomous and provide extremely high levels of situational awareness to the company.
1702811061647.png
 
MBTs today are just heavy tanks with a bigger engine. It is like, should Germany only build Tiger IIs if somehow it magically came across a 1000hp engine and reliable drivetrain?

Heavy tanks are evolutionary dead ends in an active arms race.

Guns and weapons are cheaper and lighter than armor, so arms race would simply result in:

Armor upgrade -> Gun upgrade -> armor ... all the way until the heaviest practical vehicle is built. Since gun is lighter and cheaper than armor, the heaviest practical vehicle will NOT have defensive immunity against an same in class vehicle. There is never a tank that can "take a hit" against itself if designs are balanced.

The practical design seeks to defeat anti-infantry weapons, longer range threats (artillery, missiles) and light anti-tank threats (towed guns, ATGM) not seeking to defeat another 50+ ton platform's weapon.

The practical medium tank, with survivability features against lighter threats and a big weapon capable of defeating the "heaviest practical vehicle" ought to be vehicle of choice for nations not interesting wasting money on multiple generations of vehicles in "overmatch."

Shooting first with powerful weapons is the right way to success.
That hasn't been the case for decades. Armor has largely caught up with offense after the Cold War ended, especially since, for a good decade, 'Carbon is Magic' wasn't really a joke. Hell, we developed what is essentially Battletech's EndoSteel back in 2016 (and, surprisingly enough, it fared better against armor-piercing ammunition than ball/FMJ ammo).
I really don't think team communications has EVER been an issue on a modern MBT. The fact of the matter is, you put all the crew together and up front.. they all die together and up front.

There will be VERY few scenarios wherein the tank takes damage and only a few are injured in some way. Survivability of a unmanned turret and 3 man hull crew tank goes down the drain. The only time this changes is from a defilade, which is suicide in modern day. You'll be too easily targeted and destroyed in this type of environment. Tanks becoming fighter jets for the ground, they can't rely on the internal technology for situational awareness... their range is limited. They need to be able to see from outside visual range...

Putting sensors all over the tank, even on the top of the turret will just get covered with mud or dust too quickly to remain useful. More than ever you'd see the crew exiting the hatch (and leaving the ENTIRE rest of the crew vulnerable) to do maintenance.

Further, the current weapons used on the tank and the systems have horrible reliability. There are constant jams, electrical failures, etc. They'd need to make very large strides in reliability to omit a crewman from the turret or assume the risk that you may simply not even be able to operate the vehicle in combat due to simple failures otherwise easily solved by a man in the turret.
Unmanned turrets are NOT the way to go. The level of complexity and assumed risk is too high, you either go fully unmanned or leave men in the turret. The future of manned tanks look more or less similar to the Nexter & KMW design.

A low profile turret (saves weight, turret cheeks aren't so tall but still thick).. the integrated trophy and improved top armor protection are noteworthy. The additional crewman in the hull assists in weapons operation or driving. The fatigue level for this crew is lower, the protection is higher. The capabilities remain otherwise equal to current MBT's. Improving protection through an unmanned turret is totally unnecessary if manned-unmanned teaming with local drones and other SA assets is done. To properly utilize tanks in the future we will need to integrate drones down to the platoon level of armored formations. These drones need to be autonomous and provide extremely high levels of situational awareness to the company.
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To be honest, a future tank will take quite a few pages out of Battletech's book, as crazy as it sounds. Sensor fusion out the wazoo, uninterruptable datanets as standard (not C3 networks, the bog-standard communications rig allows all units to send moderate amounts of data to the entire unit), basic ECM sets being ubiquitous (yeah, that's canonical, and this isn't just against radar either, but it also works against even laser designators as they have to constantly shift frequencies and update the ordinance on the new frequencies in real-time or have the ordinance they're TAGing for outright miss), and materials like EndoSteel being a thing.
 
Would you mind sending a link regarding that real life endosteel? It sounds interesting.

Not to mention graphene, which might be kicking around sometime this century. That's a material that is distinctly more suited to armour than armament.
 
Putting sensors all over the tank, even on the top of the turret will just get covered with mud or dust too quickly to remain useful. More than ever you'd see the crew exiting the hatch (and leaving the ENTIRE rest of the crew vulnerable) to do maintenance.
You do know that there are dust and mud repellent coatings that work quite well, right?
 
You do know that there are dust and mud repellent coatings that work quite well, right?
How many that work for 30+ years? The current in-service Abrams SEPV2 fleet has never seen a day zero reset and struggle to order simple parts like the elevation lock for their loader's M240 machine gun mounts.
 
Would you mind sending a link regarding that real life endosteel? It sounds interesting.

Not to mention graphene, which might be kicking around sometime this century. That's a material that is distinctly more suited to armour than armament.
I'll do one better: a video has been provided.
Yeah, it acts a lot like EndoSteel from Battletech. :confused:o_O:confused:
How many that work for 30+ years? The current in-service Abrams SEPV2 fleet has never seen a day zero reset and struggle to order simple parts like the elevation lock for their loader's M240 machine gun mounts.
This is very sus. Bar none.
 
When the electronics go down in an Abrams you

Evacuate the vehicle, because you have clearly lost main engine power, and need to leave before you brew up. When tanks lose power, you have to evacuate because you're going to be hit again and again, until you catch fire, to ensure the kill.

The idea that a tank is going to fight without electrical power is extremely silly, and even a gunner's backup periscope is dubious nowadays, since so much of the M1's combat potential is coming from its fire control system and high resolution thermal viewers. Without those, it's barely better than T-62 or M60A3, to be honest.
 
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There is battery power for a while but if the engine is down you are no longer in the tank role and are in a de facto pillbox mode.

As we have seen in Ukraine, not every mobility kill is a totally destroyed vehicle.
 
How many that work for 30+ years? The current in-service Abrams SEPV2 fleet has never seen a day zero reset and struggle to order simple parts like the elevation lock for their loader's M240 machine gun mounts.
Doubt that, but yes, needing to work for 30 years is a concern. The coating formulas haven't been around for 30 years yet.

Some of those coatings are simple spray-on epoxies, so easily renewed. Others need to be baked into the armor glass.



Evacuate the vehicle, because you have clearly lost main engine power, and need to leave before you brew up. When tanks lose power, you have to evacuate because you're going to be hit again and again, until you catch fire, to ensure the kill.

The idea that a tank is going to fight without electrical power is extremely silly, and even a gunner's backup periscope is dubious nowadays, since so much of the M1's combat potential is coming from its fire control system and high resolution thermal viewers. Without those, it's barely better than T-62 or M60A3, to be honest.
Loss of electrical was a poor choice on my part. Yes, a mobility kill equals the crew bailing out ASAP before their ride gets brewed up. There are other causes of CAMERAS NO WORKEE than total electrical failure.

The important part is LOSS OF CAMERAS via whatever reason you can think up. So you add backup fiber-optics to the turret cameras. If you're down to the fiber optics, you lose the big "Iron Vision" screens and are down to a single eyepiece like a telescope (which is basically what you're using).
 
This is very sus. Bar none.
Go join the GHPC discord server and ask when the last time an Abrams was painted at the unit level, or how hard it is to order simple parts. It's worse in other countries like Germany with their budget.
 
Go join the GHPC discord server and ask when the last time an Abrams was painted at the unit level, or how hard it is to order simple parts. It's worse in other countries like Germany with their budget.
Uhm, CARC isn't supposed to be applied at the unit level.
 
The important part is LOSS OF CAMERAS via whatever reason you can think up. So you add backup fiber-optics to the turret cameras. If you're down to the fiber optics, you lose the big "Iron Vision" screens and are down to a single eyepiece like a telescope (which is basically what you're using).
Which is why I mentioned fibre optics in the first place... It's a much better backup for cameras than traditional periscopes, and tankers have the ability to not stick their head out while under fire... Unless your tank is hit so bad that the wire gets cut in half from residue shock.
Tbh I don't think something like Iron Vision is actually neccesary, except for driving. There's too much apertures that can be knocked out with a single sub-30m 155mm shell burst. Controlling organic UAS to provide surveillance and fire control with LOS datalink is imo a much better option, and you have a load of screens and terminals free for use for comms, data-sharing with the platoon and overhead CAS/recon et al.
Screens at the front and left/right corners, space at the back for accomodations for tankers (a futon and kettle), like what Morozov imagined
The location of the crew is lowered and they can change their places within their compartment and carry out multiple roles from their positions (drive, shoot, etc). They also have an inflatable mattress, a work table and a water/food heater. Their compartment is also water, dust and sound proof and during operation of the tank can talk to each other without the use of headsets. The roof of the tank rearwards of the crew compartment is aluminum.
Tbh I think a front engine will be more optimal for this layout, since you still need to bail somewhere. With the "crew in hull, forward capsule" design people could only exit through what normally is the driver's hatch, except there're 3? A rear exit enables much more space for non-combat work, like the hangar on warships, and you actually have something useful to shield the crew's displays instead of just packing more armour idk.
 
Which is why I mentioned fibre optics in the first place... It's a much better backup for cameras than traditional periscopes, and tankers have the ability to not stick their head out while under fire... Unless your tank is hit so bad that the wire gets cut in half from residue shock.
Tbh I don't think something like Iron Vision is actually neccesary, except for driving. There's too much apertures that can be knocked out with a single sub-30m 155mm shell burst. Controlling organic UAS to provide surveillance and fire control with LOS datalink is imo a much better option, and you have a load of screens and terminals free for use for comms, data-sharing with the platoon and overhead CAS/recon et al.
Screens at the front and left/right corners, space at the back for accomodations for tankers (a futon and kettle), like what Morozov imagined
It's a lot easier on the eyes to have an Iron Vision screen 3 feet away than a HMD, even though you really need 8k displays and cameras, plus displaying in 3d so paired cameras 4" apart or whatever the average inter-pupil distance is.

Would be the world's best gaming displays.


Tbh I think a front engine will be more optimal for this layout, since you still need to bail somewhere. With the "crew in hull, forward capsule" design people could only exit through what normally is the driver's hatch, except there're 3? A rear exit enables much more space for non-combat work, like the hangar on warships, and you actually have something useful to shield the crew's displays instead of just packing more armour idk.
So you're putting the entire crew capsule at the aft end of the tank?
 
Doubt that, but yes, needing to work for 30 years is a concern. The coating formulas haven't been around for 30 years yet.

Some of those coatings are simple spray-on epoxies, so easily renewed. Others need to be baked into the armor glass.




Loss of electrical was a poor choice on my part. Yes, a mobility kill equals the crew bailing out ASAP before their ride gets brewed up. There are other causes of CAMERAS NO WORKEE than total electrical failure.

The important part is LOSS OF CAMERAS via whatever reason you can think up. So you add backup fiber-optics to the turret cameras. If you're down to the fiber optics, you lose the big "Iron Vision" screens and are down to a single eyepiece like a telescope (which is basically what you're using).

Cameras aren't that unreliable and haven't been for literal decades.

Poking your head out of the tank is a good way to get a grenade in your lap courtesy an assault drone or get stabbed or shot nowadays. The funny three-quarters hatches that were popular in the Cold War seem to have gone extinct. I think the late R.E. Simpkin talked about ballistic plexiglass domes or something for hatches, inspired by 1982, but in real terms simply staying under armor is the ideal.

All around vision is already limited in tanks, so attaining actual situational awareness often requires cameras regardless, as Ukraine and Gaza have shown with various field modifications. They're also necessary to operate tanks in close combat when every singular tank loss is literally a major upset for a theater level operation.
 
It's a lot easier on the eyes to have an Iron Vision screen 3 feet away than a HMD, even though you really need 8k displays and cameras, plus displaying in 3d so paired cameras 4" apart or whatever the average inter-pupil distance is.

Would be the world's best gaming displays.
A HMD is better for driving, though. Which is the core of the idea: you have a tank DAS with under-armour cameras that only needs to display fixed WFOV images in visual, and NV at night.
Maximum LOS in Germanic towns is like 500 metres max? An Iron Vision is useless at that distance. You're better off with the TC picking out targets with tiny tethered VTOL drones and giving the gunner the GPS coordinates to fire at.

You quite literally needs to see what the Israel modified to have Iron Vision on their M113s.
1702948481591.png
Thanks but I'd rather have the basic SEPv4 display with a couple of new terminals to control drones and UGVs than this hot mess.
So you're putting the entire crew capsule at the aft end of the tank?
No?
The entire crew space get stretched from front to end like in an IFV. The crew compartment becomes the driver's station, the middle area is where the TC and gunner works, the aft end is for everything else. Sleeping, making coffee, food and stores, etc. Track links and tools belong to the external racks, since theyre super bulky.
 
A HMD is better for driving, though. Which is the core of the idea: you have a tank DAS with under-armour cameras that only needs to display fixed WFOV images in visual, and NV at night.
Maximum LOS in Germanic towns is like 500 metres max? An Iron Vision is useless at that distance. You're better off with the TC picking out targets with tiny tethered VTOL drones and giving the gunner the GPS coordinates to fire at.

You quite literally needs to see what the Israel modified to have Iron Vision on their M113s.
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Thanks but I'd rather have the basic SEPv4 display with a couple of new terminals to control drones and UGVs than this hot mess.
First generation hardware is always stupid bulky.

Look at the back of your phone. How many cameras are there, and what's their resolution? Things will get better, with smaller cameras needing smaller blocks of armorglass.


The entire crew space get stretched from front to end like in an IFV. The crew compartment becomes the driver's station, the middle area is where the TC and gunner works, the aft end is for everything else. Sleeping, making coffee, food and stores, etc. Track links and tools belong to the external racks, since theyre super bulky.
I was assuming a TTB type turret for ammo capacity, which eats the entire middle of your hull.
 
And the people who will use the thing still want a backup that is a LOT harder to break.

My point was that tankers in combat in both Israel and Ukraine trust cameras more than their own eyeballs, and the reason things like Iron Vision exist is because poking your head out of a hatch doesn't give you any serious visibility improvements yet greatly increases crew vulnerability, which is why Rafael marketed it in the first place. The Merkava IVM has an entire bank of cameras to provide 360-degree vision for the driver, loader, and TC.

This is a direct result of the IDF's rather significant casualties caused by TCs constantly poking their heads out of the tanks and getting shot by Hezbollah snipers in Lebanon, or detonated by homemade off-route mines, both of which could have been prevented by giving sufficient under-armor visibility, which was addressed with the IVM upgrade.

Future Combat Systems was supposed to have something similar to the IDF's Carmel, which is developing an augmented reality, under-armor vision system for virtual transparency and highlighting of targets using shot spotting with multispectral cameras, which can VID hostiles using AKMs or PK machine guns based on spectral analysis of the muzzle flash (as an example).

The all-under-armor, crew-in-hull, three-abreast position has been known to be the optimal for maximized protection (all turret armor can be added to already formidable hull armor) and maximized crew operation (everyone can talk to each other and see each other without using VICs) of tanks for the past 40 years at least. The only reason it hasn't become universal (besides the T-14) is because Western countries have stopped developing new tanks, and the few times they have seriously tried to make new tanks, they've failed.

Deal with it, it's likely to be in the contract requirements.

It wasn't in the Manned Ground Vehicle or Ground Combat Vehicle requirements. Both of those had two-abreast crew in hull with (presumably) AI augmented combat systems. Reasonably futuristic, especially for the time, and far beyond the technology of their time. At least it shows that the thinkers at the top still know how wars will be fought in the future, which has since been proven by Ukraine and Israel's UAS problem within the initial 5-10 kilometers of the FLOT.

For that matter, the death of American TCs in Korea due to Chinese infantry bayonets and small arms fire directly led to the development of the M60's M85-armed cupola. The COWS on the M1 tank was of similar developments, but by this time, the three-quarters hatch had been developed which partially solved the issue.

Such hatches have long been deleted from post-Cold War manufactured AFVs, perhaps due to their cost (or some other reason), resulting in interesting videos of hand grenades landing in TC's laps and blowing apart the fighting compartment courtesy DJI Phantoms. Specifically I'm thinking of an M113A3 RISE in Ukraine that had the driver's position charred and burned.


The lifestyles of children ~20 years ago made "poking your head out of the turret" something a lieutenant colonel or sergeant major would be good at at the time, but not so much a lieutenant or buck sergeant, because they probably grew up watching TV and playing video games. Nowadays, no one is probably particularly good at it, as those buck sergeants are now sergeants major and those lieutenants are now lieutenant colonels, and kids play a lot more video games than they did back in the '80s. This trend will not suddenly reverse itself given the increasing suburbanization of America's military-qualified, non-felonious youth.

Troops who can scan a battlefield with their naked eyeballs are increasingly rare, both because myopia is spreading and the aforementioned mental barricades of suburban life's most common elements tends to kill situational awareness later on in adulthood. This is actually a benefit, because it reduces the opposition to augmented reality camera systems, but it will take a while for this to trickle down to troops.

It's actually horrifying to think how soldiers raised from age two or four on iPads and Youtube might be at scanning for targets with their eyes.

It will be sped up in wartime, as Israeli and Ukrainian tankers have done, who are both plastering their Merkava IIIs and T-64BVs with commercial Go-Pros inside steel covers just to gain some ability of close-in SA, without needing to expose themselves to splinter and sniper fire. So why would it be any different for American tankers, who lack that experience in the first place (last major American mechanized offensive was literally 20 years ago), and are practically green by comparison?
 
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First generation hardware is always stupid bulky.

Look at the back of your phone. How many cameras are there, and what's their resolution? Things will get better, with smaller cameras needing smaller blocks of armorglass.
Or, hear me out, you use tiny, under-armour camera like the F-22's MLD. It's literally a poor man's DAS that can be easily ported over to tanks, at least conceptually. Maybe with a tad bit more shock hardening.

There's literally no need for a proper Iron Vision system that can "point n shoot". The only people that's buying it is the Israel and the US Army, and the one with more experience at LSCO involving armour in urban terrain chose to splatter their tanks with simpler day/night cameras. For actually engaging the enemy, buy tethered VTOL drones that can do semi-autonomous scanning/targeting. They aren't constrained by LOS limits and has a much lower footprint.

Funny enough Elbit's Iron Vision use HMDs in conjunction with large screens. Rafael's competing offering uses screens only like the US Army's in-house tech demonstrator.
I was assuming a TTB type turret for ammo capacity, which eats the entire middle of your hull.
TTB's in-hull carousel trades survivability for capacity. You would want a no-penetration turret and the idea of packing 40 rounds worth of HE and propellant deep into the hull doesn't mean much anymore. Modern engagement barely uses anywhere beyond 20-esqe rounds before your tank is either disabled or win the shootout already. Ukrainian tankers have much confidence in using their standard 22-round loads before running back to the company's depot to resupply, because they often engage in indirect fires from favourable positions ( defilade, hilltop, entrenchment etc) and have competent SHORADs to defend their supply lines from Russian drone strikes, while the kind of fighting that the IDF did taught them to put 4 MGs onto everytank. But the main idea, at least if Yorn Kippur and the current war in Ukraine have anything in similar, is that tanks are often used as mobile pillboxes. ODF is an exception because Saddam had no serious offensive aviation or artillery spotting to hit the tank's supply convoys, so the Coalition often wiped out entire battalions by scaring them to desertion with LGB plinking, and Abrams-es got the leftover. To quote an excellent commentary from @Kat Tsun
I don't think we necessarily disagree on principle, just on the particulars of what classes of supply are important, TBH. Modern tank crews have run out of fuel, food, and machine gun rounds long before they've run out of main gun rounds, since modern tanks don't consume a lot of main gun rounds. They just don't miss their targets anymore. There's no point to carrying enough ammo for a single tank to knock out a battalion, but knocking out a company plus some whiffed shots is fine. Which means less 40-50 main gun rounds and more like 15-20.
If you intend to use your tanks as mobile SPGs, a smaller Abrams's bustle that holds around 20 rounds feeding an automatic loader with digital ammo IDing and can be pulled out and replace as needed is the way of the future. Such a thing has already done on the KF51, but with the addition of pop-out loitering munition racks. IIRC it's 2 HERO-120 for every 20 rounds or so.
 
I'm just telling you to ask people at the unit level about it, since you're not going to get a real answer from higher officials or media on this.
Former enlisted military who got out in the last 2 tears...

Its only the tiny shit that we get issues with things being are combat needed but not garrison need for multiple reasons. Biggest being that X part which was on the A2 nil being listed as needed but it was factory removed in the Sepv2.

The shit thats actaully need replacing like tricks engines, steering wheels, what have you come in on time as soon as you order them.

And there have been resets done on Sepv2s within the last 5 years. A unit generally gets their heavy combat vehicles like tanks or Strykers reset once a decade usually to the newest spec.

Which is currently the Sepv3 which came out in late 2020. The Spev2 came out in 2007 for example and got upgraded twice, Tusk around 2010 and something else in 15 that Ive forgotten.

The biggest maintenance issue is that the Engines are all over time as hell. But the Turbines dont really care bout that and still as reliable as factory new ones. So everyone just eyes them and goes back to arguing with the butter bars on why you cant but a Sep or older 50 cal mount on a SepV2 ir newer. Cause thats one of tge parts that got factory removed for the Crow system.
 
Or, hear me out, you use tiny, under-armour camera like the F-22's MLD. It's literally a poor man's DAS that can be easily ported over to tanks, at least conceptually. Maybe with a tad bit more shock hardening.

There's literally no need for a proper Iron Vision system that can "point n shoot". The only people that's buying it is the Israel and the US Army, and the one with more experience at LSCO involving armour in urban terrain chose to splatter their tanks with simpler day/night cameras. For actually engaging the enemy, buy tethered VTOL drones that can do semi-autonomous scanning/targeting. They aren't constrained by LOS limits and has a much lower footprint.

Funny enough Elbit's Iron Vision use HMDs in conjunction with large screens. Rafael's competing offering uses screens only like the US Army's in-house tech demonstrator.
Oh, I'm fully expecting the "final" version of Iron Vision to use a metric crapton of cameras all over the vehicle, each the size of a cell phone camera.


TTB's in-hull carousel trades survivability for capacity. You would want a no-penetration turret and the idea of packing 40 rounds worth of HE and propellant deep into the hull doesn't mean much anymore. Modern engagement barely uses anywhere beyond 20-esqe rounds before your tank is either disabled or win the shootout already. Ukrainian tankers have much confidence in using their standard 22-round loads before running back to the company's depot to resupply, because they often engage in indirect fires from favourable positions ( defilade, hilltop, entrenchment etc) and have competent SHORADs to defend their supply lines from Russian drone strikes, while the kind of fighting that the IDF did taught them to put 4 MGs onto everytank. But the main idea, at least if Yorn Kippur and the current war in Ukraine have anything in similar, is that tanks are often used as mobile pillboxes. ODF is an exception because Saddam had no serious offensive aviation or artillery spotting to hit the tank's supply convoys, so the Coalition often wiped out entire battalions by scaring them to desertion with LGB plinking, and Abrams-es got the leftover. To quote an excellent commentary from @Kat Tsun

If you intend to use your tanks as mobile SPGs, a smaller Abrams's bustle that holds around 20 rounds feeding an automatic loader with digital ammo IDing and can be pulled out and replace as needed is the way of the future. Such a thing has already done on the KF51, but with the addition of pop-out loitering munition racks. IIRC it's 2 HERO-120 for every 20 rounds or so.
Yes, a non-penetrating turret like the Stryker MGS would be ideal. Plays hell on your ammunition capacity, though.

And the reason I want high capacity is for variety of ammo. You're going to carry a few rounds of a lot of types. Call it 4x or so canister, 8-10x of whatever you're calling the NLOS round (possibly times two different types, fast for flat ground and slow for hilly terrain and built-up areas, though usually you can load one based on terrain and just have two settings in the FCS), 10x MPAT, 10x Sabot, and 10x GLATGMs (separate from the fast NLOS); and that's 44 rounds. Because canister does things that MPAT doesn't, like relatively safely making doors in concrete buildings with a squad 10m away.
 
No mention of ceramic paints. Concept tanks these days use it liberally. Should turn most any tank into a Thermos bottle with enough of it.
 

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