On the contrary, rapid technological change doesn't support massive investment in R&D, especially since returns on R&D investment have been shrinking for decades. Whatever you make today will be obsolete tomorrow. What's the point? Wait until things simmer down, progress goes from once a week or once a month to once a decade, and then decide after looking at what other people did.

The only reason you'd support massive investment is if you are ignorant of history, and think that rates of change continue to infinity (the Kurzeilian/Karl Marx interpretation; although Marx had better footing in his assumptions since he was writing from the mid-1800s), or you have some sort of personal bias in the matter (you actually work Lockheed and might be impacted by a Gremlin swarm manufacturing decision). Given the population of this forum the former is more likely, though. Most people here aren't missile factory managers.

In 5-10 years, whatever technological progress made with drones will have settled down again and the US Army can take a long, hard look at them and maybe have some sort of loitering swarming munition in service in the 2030's. An armed RQ-7-alike with small-ish (50-90mm) laser guided bombs seems to be quite a viable investment alongside bigger MQ-9s for the Army. No real vast development needed there, just a bunch of small scale, bite-sized experiments and letting other people copy your ideas and do it better, so you can do the same to them.

That's sort of the point of FCS and the personal computer made 20 years ago. France and Israel seem to be moving forward with FCS-type equipment without much issue in terms of hardware or equipment. Whether it will actually work in terms of radio bandwidth or the sort of machine learning/recognition algorithms is another question that FCS never got to ask because it had to spend $20 billion-with-a-b on 1990's server-in-a-backpack that got turned into a cellphone. Now it's worth asking whether or not DOD could have just waited 10-15 years and used an Android distro to do everything FCS was supposed to do for GI Joe.

Congress is smart enough to not repeat that, despite the US Army probably wishing they didn't, but that's because the US Army is packed with future CEOs of Lockheed.
And what happens when the enemy doesn't give you the luxury of catching up the advancements they've made in fielding new systems and tactics that take advantage of them? Even incremental steps are better than none.

What enemy would actually do this and why is it important for the US Army, specifically? Currently, the PLA is doing a re-run of FCS with some latest and greatest weapons circa 2005 (which the US Army is already quite aware of and doesn't seem interested in), and the Russian Army trying to replace the T-80U. Very large threats there. Despite 20+ years of development and rapid economic growth, the PRC is still a decade behind America (rather than 20, at least) in terms of industrial competence and responsiveness. They're going to hard pressed to react to XM1299 if they actually cared about PLZ-05.

I'm talking about the Turkish and Israeli successes in the Middle East, which are the most pressing and relevant observations for the US Army today.

The good news is that the US Army agrees and has been emphasizing battlefield air defense over replacing some tanks that would just get blown up.

The bad news is that it doesn't seem to have much interest in developing drone swarms, passing or otherwise, in armed UAS. Given it's building XM1299, testing AMPV and MPF, and a host of dubious (SLRC) and decent (.277") ideas on top of that, it can be forgiven. It's also a rapidly changing area, so they may simply be waiting for the technology to cool down a bit and for additional data on what sort of air defenses are effective against armed UAS to come out. There's no real reason to go all in on drone swarms or whatever at the moment (like the US Army tried to do with FCS), and stuff like MQ-1 and MQ-9 are so tied to conventional airbases that they might as well just be armed Pilatuses or something.

Besides that it's keeping its current weapons modern and capable with some electronics and engine upgrades. Good ideas, since it will be using M1 and M2 for another half century at least.
 
Last edited:
Even an upgunned M-2 was mince meat tens ago against the Russians. Infantry may need to be replaced altogether w/ armed UAS.

High flying UAS MQ-9 are also meat against the Russians despite what GA wants to peddle.

The Nazis found out what Soviet counterbattery and MRLs were about. It is magnitudes worse now. If you cant set way back, as the Ukranians learned, ur toast. Ok, 100kms is great but it aint enough.

Long range ATGM/tk guns render anything closer than 10km to Russian formation dead.
 
Even an upgunned M-2 was mince meat tens ago against the Russians. Infantry may need to be replaced altogether w/ armed UAS.

High flying UAS MQ-9 are also meat against the Russians despite what GA wants to peddle.

The Nazis found out what Soviet counterbattery and MRLs were about. It is magnitudes worse now. If you cant set way back, as the Ukranians learned, ur toast. Ok, 100kms is great but it aint enough.

Long range ATGM/tk guns render anything closer than 10km to Russian formation dead.
Wow, you're ignoring all sorts of tech advancements that happened in the last few decades, especially in the form of data networking and computer (in general). You're also talking like a god-forsaken Sparky fanboy.
 
Even an upgunned M-2 was mince meat tens ago against the Russians. Infantry may need to be replaced altogether w/ armed UAS.

High flying UAS MQ-9 are also meat against the Russians despite what GA wants to peddle.

The Nazis found out what Soviet counterbattery and MRLs were about. It is magnitudes worse now. If you cant set way back, as the Ukranians learned, ur toast. Ok, 100kms is great but it aint enough.

Long range ATGM/tk guns render anything closer than 10km to Russian formation dead.
You may be interested in reading this article that doesn’t agree the Russians have super artillery spotting abilities.

 
Even an upgunned M-2 was mince meat tens ago against the Russians. Infantry may need to be replaced altogether w/ armed UAS.

High flying UAS MQ-9 are also meat against the Russians despite what GA wants to peddle.

The Nazis found out what Soviet counterbattery and MRLs were about. It is magnitudes worse now. If you cant set way back, as the Ukranians learned, ur toast. Ok, 100kms is great but it aint enough.

Long range ATGM/tk guns render anything closer than 10km to Russian formation dead.
You may be interested in reading this article that doesn’t agree the Russians have super artillery spotting abilities.


This is part of the problem with the A2/AD mindset that has taken over the US military - it almost automatically leads to overstating adversary capabilities.
 
Even an upgunned M-2 was mince meat tens ago against the Russians. Infantry may need to be replaced altogether w/ armed UAS.

High flying UAS MQ-9 are also meat against the Russians despite what GA wants to peddle.

The Nazis found out what Soviet counterbattery and MRLs were about. It is magnitudes worse now. If you cant set way back, as the Ukranians learned, ur toast. Ok, 100kms is great but it aint enough.

Long range ATGM/tk guns render anything closer than 10km to Russian formation dead.
You may be interested in reading this article that doesn’t agree the Russians have super artillery spotting abilities.

View: https://youtu.be/14LMmBsDw-g?t=1940


..will take Dr Karbers experience in Ukraine a little more seriously. Karber has been t this along time. The above commentator has no historic creds but some BS anti-military agenda.

There is every reason for every witness, on both sides, to exaggerate and BS for WHATEVER reason, at the time. Militias and troops have no interest in limiting collateral damage in that conflict.

The truth is in observables and long term understanding over time of real formations, equipment and battles not a bunch journalistic joshing agenda from someone who does not know the difference between 122mm Grads and much larger rockets.
 
Last edited:
Even an upgunned M-2 was mince meat tens ago against the Russians. Infantry may need to be replaced altogether w/ armed UAS.

High flying UAS MQ-9 are also meat against the Russians despite what GA wants to peddle.

The Nazis found out what Soviet counterbattery and MRLs were about. It is magnitudes worse now. If you cant set way back, as the Ukranians learned, ur toast. Ok, 100kms is great but it aint enough.

Long range ATGM/tk guns render anything closer than 10km to Russian formation dead.
You may be interested in reading this article that doesn’t agree the Russians have super artillery spotting abilities.

View: https://youtu.be/14LMmBsDw-g?t=1940


..will take Dr Karbers experience in Ukraine a little more seriously. Karber has been t this along time. The above commentator has no historic creds but some BS anti-military agenda.

There is every reason for every witness, on both sides, to exaggerate and BS for WHATEVER reason, at the time. Militias and troops have no interest in limiting collateral damage in that conflict.

The truth is in observables and long term understanding over time of real formations, equipment and battles not a bunch journalistic joshing agenda from someone who does not know the difference between 122mm Grads and much larger rockets.

The blogger did two tours in Afghanistan with the 173rd Airborne and was with a US training mission in Ukraine. Is he supposed to ask eyewitnesses "Are you sure it was a Grad and not some much larger rocket?"

Not that Grads haven't been used extensively in Ukraine by both sides.

Didn't Karber base "up to 3000 Chinese nuclear warheads" on a Usenet post repeated by some blog?
 
The word blogger says it all as opposed to a former or current Rand employee..

Reality is we will never know how many nukes the the PLA has as so much is in the Great Underground Wall of China..There were so many warheads which went missing from the former SU and Western backed de proliferation such a disjointed mess for so long. It is believed the PLA has Gerald Bull super gun(s) so cruise and Ballistic TELs reveal nothing.
 
This guy who only mentions Grads in direct quotes by eyewitness doesn't even know the difference between Grads and much larger rockets!

What a silly argument.
 
Until the Russian and Chinese armies notch up the amount of combat experience accumulated by the US and British armies since 1990 I will take all the fear stories about the poor state of the West's land power with a large pinch of salt.
No use comparing with the rapid build up of Hitler's Wehrmacht. This took place less than twenty years after Germany had fought a major land war in Europe.
 
This guy who only mentions Grads in direct quotes by eyewitness doesn't even know the difference between Grads and much larger rockets!

What a silly argument.
What in heaven's name are you even refering to...ur own private Idaho one would assume.

The truth is in observables and long term understanding over time of real formations, equipment and battles not a bunch journalistic joshing agenda from someone who does not know the difference between 122mm Grads and much larger rockets.

You literally wrote this less than two hours ago.

Meanwhile Karber has (perhaps unwittingly) assisted a Ukrainian delegation to Congress in passing off photos of different conflicts altogether as representing the situation in Ukraine - his excuse being he was confused about what photos he was supposed to authenticate and what came from Google Images.

I think I'll stick with the blogger on this.

I did watch the video a bit though, and I find it odd how your contention that "Long range ATGM/tk guns render anything closer than 10km to Russian formation dead" contrasts with his description of both sides using 122mm SPGs as antitank guns within 500 meters and BTRs chewing each other up with light cannon. To bring the discussion back to the topic of this thread, he even wonders why we didn't just buy Gvozdikas on the cheap instead of wasting $17 billion on FCS. If the Ukrainians can operate them within the 10km death zone maybe we should have!
 
Last edited:
Yes, bloggers are generally more reliable than the average RAND know-nothing.
Whenever ur ready to brief a West Point class please be sure to invite me ..am waiting breathlessly. Otherwise keep ur crap in ur crapper.

If the average West Point class is less informed than the blogger with battlefield experience, and thinks the PRC has 3,000 nuclear warheads hiding in a giant tunnel, then that sort of proves the point. Russian successes in places like Georgia and Ukraine seem to be rooted in opponent incompetence and inadequacy more than Russian wizardry. The PRC has yet to have anything similar to Ukraine, so there's not a of ability to judge their capabilities, but what they're showing at trade shows isn't terribly impressive.

A guy who is easily duped by random blog posts and asserts that the PLASRF has a giant tunnel of thousands of nuclear missiles hiding under a mountain or something should probably be politely asked if he would like to retire, though. It's not a very serious assertion and it's a bit dangerous, arguably, because he has a doctorate and inherent social capital, so what he says has outsize worth.

But the entirety of US post-Cold War threat assessment is rather...poor, to say the least. It seems to designed to invent threats to post-hoc rationalize force structures, rather than objectively evaluate them and build force structures to counter them. But given the Army is a major player in these threat assessments it's not hugely surprising why (the Army is afraid of being cut down to a size that more accurately reflects its relevance in future conflicts, as they perhaps should be if America finds itself in a war where it needs a big army in the future).

Until the Russian and Chinese armies notch up the amount of combat experience accumulated by the US and British armies since 1990 I will take all the fear stories about the poor state of the West's land power with a large pinch of salt.
No use comparing with the rapid build up of Hitler's Wehrmacht. This took place less than twenty years after Germany had fought a major land war in Europe.

A partial issue is that said Western armies are using their even less experienced proxies as vicarious battlefield experience with their opponents, though. This both plays into the hands of the proxies (who want to present Russia as a big, frightening, powerful nation to get aid money to funnel into Cypriot bank accounts and bitcoin), and the hands of people who promote the idea that Russia and PRC are currently massive threats (because they will get cushy jobs at Lockheed or Raytheon).

Neither side there really wants to promote the realistic interpretation of the threats, which is that for the moment Russia and the PRC are both very weak militarily, and that the US is very, very strong. This will not appreciably change, except that the PRC may end up consuming more of US combat power in a regional spat in a couple decades, assuming it doesn't collapse under its own internal weight (Xi has done some very curious things lately), and for Russia it seems unlikely to ever change (if anything it will continue declining).

The greater land power issue is probably real to some extent, but it just reflects a general question about the utility of large land forces in general. There's not a lot of role for armies to play in the predominantly air and naval oriented battles of the "A2AD" future. Without air power the land forces get annihilated by air power (Syria, Nagorno-Karabakh, ISIS). With air power, the land forces have nothing to attack, and even a few men in pickup trucks and on motorcycles can destroy large field formations with little effort (ISIS in Iraq and Syria before the USN showed up).

That said, ground forces have sort of carved out a niche for sieges (Gaza, Sarajevo, Fallujah) where "flatten Arnhem" isn't a serious answer, either because you can't reliably locate targets or because you want to actually capture a town or something and not just obliterate it. NATO doesn't fight many of those battles, but some other democratic countries do, like Israel.
 
Last edited:
Even an upgunned M-2 was mince meat tens ago against the Russians. Infantry may need to be replaced altogether w/ armed UAS.

High flying UAS MQ-9 are also meat against the Russians despite what GA wants to peddle.

The Nazis found out what Soviet counterbattery and MRLs were about. It is magnitudes worse now. If you cant set way back, as the Ukranians learned, ur toast. Ok, 100kms is great but it aint enough.

Long range ATGM/tk guns render anything closer than 10km to Russian formation dead.
You may be interested in reading this article that doesn’t agree the Russians have super artillery spotting abilities.

View: https://youtu.be/14LMmBsDw-g?t=1940


..will take Dr Karbers experience in Ukraine a little more seriously. Karber has been t this along time. The above commentator has no historic creds but some BS anti-military agenda.

There is every reason for every witness, on both sides, to exaggerate and BS for WHATEVER reason, at the time. Militias and troops have no interest in limiting collateral damage in that conflict.

The truth is in observables and long term understanding over time of real formations, equipment and battles not a bunch journalistic joshing agenda from someone who does not know the difference between 122mm Grads and much larger rockets.

The blogger did two tours in Afghanistan with the 173rd Airborne and was with a US training mission in Ukraine. Is he supposed to ask eyewitnesses "Are you sure it was a Grad and not some much larger rocket?"

Not that Grads haven't been used extensively in Ukraine by both sides.

Didn't Karber base "up to 3000 Chinese nuclear warheads" on a Usenet post repeated by some blog?

I was a believer too in the Super Russian Recon-Strike Complex b4 reading Adrian’s blog post. I doubt he has some anti military axe to grind and hopes we lose to Russia. I like Karber too, his articles in the 80s in “Armed Forces Journal” were great reading. But another viewpoint on the fighting in Ukraine isn’t Anti American.
 
It's hard to say - imagine the horror stories the Ukrainians would be telling if they'd gone up against NATO with what was essentially a small decaying 80s Soviet army.

The Russians showed some formidable strengths and glaring weaknesses, both of which would be much different in a larger-scale conflict with different circumstances and fewer constraints.

For example, coordinating rapid artillery fire within a battalion task group is one thing. The problem becomes much different with the much larger units the Russians see themselves using in a major war.
 
I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate either the Chinese or the Russians and I'd rather lean on the side of caution then dismiss them as "very weak militarily". I feel this discussion has moved very far away from the future of the M1 Abrams and MBTs in American service. I hope work is continuing on those OMT design studies the Army revealed awhile ago. I still have concerns about the whole "optionally manned" part, not because I think that "robot tanks" are a bad idea but I think dedicated smaller vehicles would be better than trying to use the primary manned MBT in such a fashion.
 
I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate either the Chinese or the Russians and I'd rather lean on the side of caution then dismiss them as "very weak militarily". I feel this discussion has moved very far away from the future of the M1 Abrams and MBTs in American service. I hope work is continuing on those OMT design studies the Army revealed awhile ago. I still have concerns about the whole "optionally manned" part, not because I think that "robot tanks" are a bad idea but I think dedicated smaller vehicles would be better than trying to use the primary manned MBT in such a fashion.

The article I linked wasn’t trying to underestimate the Russian Army. Just to not assign it abilities above & beyond anyone else.
A different perspective if nothing else.
 
On the contrary, rapid technological change doesn't support massive investment in R&D, especially since returns on R&D investment have been shrinking for decades. Whatever you make today will be obsolete tomorrow. What's the point? Wait until things simmer down, progress goes from once a week or once a month to once a decade, and then decide after looking at what other people did.
And what happens when the enemy doesn't give you the luxury of catching up the advancements they've made in fielding new systems and tactics that take advantage of them? Even incremental steps are better than none.
What enemy would actually do this and why is it important for the US Army, specifically? Currently, the PLA is doing a re-run of FCS with some latest and greatest weapons circa 2005, and the Russian Army trying to replace the T-80U. Very large threats there. Despite 20+ years of development and rapid economic growth, the PRC is still a decade behind America in terms of industrial competence and responsiveness. They're going to hard pressed to react to XM1299 if they actually cared about PLZ-05.

I'm talking about the Turkish and Israeli successes in the Middle East, which are the most pressing and relevant observations for the US Army today.
I think the issue for armies is that the slice of technology that falls under the army is simply not decisive. Long range sensing is decisive and falls under the air force: it doesn't matter what fancy toys the army gets if opponents parks a VLO over you.

On the other hand, the tech involving air superiority is decisive: doesn't matter how other forces are capitalized if you can park your air fleet over their surface forces.

In times of rapid change with no predicted date for war, one still need to keep the decisive parts of the forces modernized even if at great cost. Short production runs means off the shelf systems, fast cycle development that take priority over things like durability and and potentially reliability. (demanding reliability can blow up development times into obsolescence)

The good news is that the US Army agrees and has been emphasizing battlefield air defense over replacing some tanks that would just get blown up.

The bad news is that it doesn't seem to have much interest in developing drone swarms, passing or otherwise, in armed UAS. Given it's building XM1299, testing AMPV and MPF, and a host of dubious (SLRC) and decent (.277") ideas on top of that, it can be forgiven.
I'd see MPF, OMGV as coin vehicles. The US army simply lacks and organization that would logically take up drone swarms, with the closest organization being rotary branch that is forcing a rather dumb operating concept with ALE. (why would anyone use helicopters as a drone mothership except in light of Johnson-McConnell) With the US army's complete lack of experience in air defense let alone air combat, I don't think any in house knowledge exists on building a drone swarm.

Which means this drone swarms will likely fall under the air force. With the air force focus it means relatively poor air ground cooperation but relatively better air superiority/sead integration.

This means, IMO, delays in fielding concepts like"
1. Air-mobile landed persistent systems, like perching ISR drones, air mobile unattended ground sensors, air mobile self deployed minefields
2. Micro-scale air ground combat networks: stuff like DARPA's OFFSET but deployed outside of infantry control range.
3. Effective counter ISR ultra low level air defense: Developing a screening force against micro air vehicles is tricky and with AD an attached on afterthought and focused on force preservation, with no organic functional AEW assets at all and this not being an core AF mission this would likely be done poorly until shooting starts.
4. Effective real time artillery direction with fragmentary intel: The US army probably won't develop this difficult art due to expectation of air superiority, lack of organic control of higher performance ISR assets (that'd do significant part of heavy lifting in peer conflict) and lack of practice until conditions requires.

The greater land power issue is probably real to some extent, but it just reflects a general question about the utility of large land forces in general. There's not a lot of role for armies to play in the predominantly air and naval oriented battles of the "A2AD" future. Without air power the land forces get annihilated by air power (Syria, Nagorno-Karabakh, ISIS). With air power, the land forces have nothing to attack, and even a few men in pickup trucks and on motorcycles can destroy large field formations with little effort
Even with air power, land forces can fight without too much interference in highly dispersed, very small scale combat in complex terrain.

I don't think the US army wants to be a infantry/robot focused force with advanced missiles while ditching most of the heavy assets though. Just look at all the crying at marines ditching tanks.
 
Getting back to the actual title of the thread "abrams replacement", here is a notional TARDEC NGCV OMT concept blurred and a concept. 1622249368578.png
 

Attachments

  • omt.jpg
    omt.jpg
    98.6 KB · Views: 273
Looks like a pop-up ATGM on the turret.
 
Looks like a pop-up ATGM on the turret.
..have not personal knowledge. ..personal belief is they give away one's position , though their range could be of great benefit, much like a quadrotor does:)
 
 
You are correct Grey Havoc, when the decision is to keep the Abrams for 60 yrs, folks will make their 50 yr career pontificating and developing nothing useable. Continuing iterations, a 'Digital Series" of sorts, even based on the Abrams form factor would be a start even though not ever entering service.. continued field testing.. Most of these unmanned sacrifice concepts would seen to be simply extended, semi independent Active protection Systems (APS) developments not BattleField Operating Sys (BOS). ...beleive if testing were genuine then the importance of non disposable and non tethered UCRAS would afford the most RSTA + Strike value. Unconventional means to suppress tanks at max stand off from the launch vehicles would likely prevail.
 
I have a lot of sympathy for US planners. Between 1945 and 1991 US tanks were designed to outgun and out armour the Soviet equivalent.
It took a long time to get from the WW2 derived M60 (M26,47 and48) to the M1 via the troubled MBT70 tank.
The US edge grew between M60vsT62 in the Yom Kippur and M1vsT72 in 1991.
The Russians and Chinese are still trying to match the fully M1 equipped Army and National Guard US team.
The Brits only got Centurion after Germany had Panthers and the SU T34 and JSIII. Prior to that we had muddled along with Matildas and Cruisers and Churchills.
The Russians in particular will have to demonstrate in some conflict (as opposed to Moscow drive pasts) that Armata is the new T34 or JSIII.
 
I have a lot of sympathy for US planners. Between 1945 and 1991 US tanks were designed to outgun and out armour the Soviet equivalent.
It took a long time to get from the WW2 derived M60 (M26,47 and48) to the M1 via the troubled MBT70 tank.
The US edge grew between M60vsT62 in the Yom Kippur and M1vsT72 in 1991.
The Russians and Chinese are still trying to match the fully M1 equipped Army and National Guard US team.
The Brits only got Centurion after Germany had Panthers and the SU T34 and JSIII. Prior to that we had muddled along with Matildas and Cruisers and Churchills.
The Russians in particular will have to demonstrate in some conflict (as opposed to Moscow drive pasts) that Armata is the new T34 or JSIII.

M1A2C apparently has a -IP style armor improvement, to be fair. So arguably they only need to prove that they have the ability to make a few dozen 2A82s.
 
 
Is the Lima plant still striking one wonders?

If the turret is unmanned why man it at all. If it is unmanned why do you need 60ts?
...have to mention again, better to hide manned controllers in what would appear to be unmanned. Optionally manned every vehicle, and discuss why infantry really enters mechanized battles.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom