Loire-Nieuport designations

[hesham]

I have completed the list,any additions or corrections are welcome.

 

[PhR]

any additions or corrections are welcome.

Not really: even when I provide corrections, you don't take it into account. I already explained twice that the Loire 21 is the prototype of the Loire 210, but you still left the false information about an obscure undocumented project.

The Loire 21 prototype was initially ordered by official letter the 20th Nov. 1935, then moved under reference 1123/6 to SNCAO on 29th Dec. 1936 . The order for 20 Loire 210 series was officialised under reference 1124/6 the 20th May 1936.
After the end of its tests, the Loire 21 was re-engined to become the Loire 211.

 

[PhR]

I have completed the list,any additions or corrections are welcome.

Additional projets:
Loire 31 R3: modification studied by re-engining the Loire 30 RN3 with 3x350 hp Gnome-Rhône 7Kds "Titan Major". Project abandonned in favor of the Loire 301. Source: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/les-avions-et-hydravions-loire-by-gérard-bousquet.43467/ p.228.
There is also a factory drawing of a Loire 80 project, which did not derive from Loire 70. It was a commercial flying boat with 3 or 4 engines for Marseilles-Algiers. A 3-engine military version was also studied with a torpedo.
A wind-tunnel model of the Loire 90 was tested in Eiffel laboratory in June 1935. No data available.
P.235, there is a drawing of the Loire 110 C1 biplane. A version Loire 111 was also studied in 1930.
Loire 120 and 121 were floatplanes studied in 1931.

 

[PhR]

A proof that the Loire 21 is the the prototype of Loire 210: it's written on its rudder.

 

[hesham]

A proof that the Loire 21 is the the prototype of Loire 210: it's written on its rudder.

OK,I correct the list with some speculations.

 

[PhR]

Loire-210 was a single seat low-wing catapult-launched fighter seaplane,powered by one 720 hp Hispano-Suiza 9Vbs engine
Loire-211 was a projected variant of the Loire 210 with Gnôme-Rhône 14 Mars engine

Others corrections:
Loire-21 was a single seat low-wing catapult-launched fighter seaplane,powered by one 720 hp Hispano-Suiza 9Vbs engine. One built.
Loire-210 was rhe series version of the Loire 21. Twenty built.
Loire-211 the Loire 21 prototype re-engined with one 780 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 Kfs. This is not just a project: it flown.
Loire-212 was planned to be the Loire 210 n° 2 re-engined with 720 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 Mars. Project only.

 

[PhR]

It's too complicated to provide one by one all corrections. There are too much issues, and you don't take it into account. So, I prefer reworking your list. I removed some speculations and I have added various details such as project dates, number built, 1st flights, engines, etc.:

Loire-10 was a colonial aircraft, powered by one 230 hp Salmson 9 Ab engine. 1929, 1 built. 1st flight 26 Sep. 1930
Loire-11 was a version, powered by one 300 hp Lorraine Algol 9 Na engine. 1929, 2 built. 1st flight 22 May 1931
Loire-12 was a project for Loire 10/11 powered by Gnome-Rhone 7K engine. 1929, project only
Loire-20 RN3 was a three-seat reconnaissance aircraft project powered by two 350 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Ja engines, later replaced by two 400 hp 12Jb. 1929, project only
Loire-30 RN3 was a three-seat reconnaissance aircraft with three Salmson 9Ab engines. 1929, 1 built. 1st flight 5 Mar. 1932
Loire-31 R3 – was a modification studied by re-engining the Loire 30 RN3 with three 350 hp Gnome-Rhône 7Kds Titan Major engines. Project abandoned in favor of the Loire 301
Loire-301 was an experimental three-seat test-bed for an armored turret, modified from the Loire 30. 1 modified, 1st flight 25 Sep. 1934
Loire-40 was a single-seat lightweight fighter project with 300 hp Gnome-Rhône Titan II engine. 1929, project only
Loire-41 was a single-seat lightweight fighter project with 500 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Mc engine. 1930, project only
Loire-42 was a single-seat lightweight fighter project with 420 hp Gnome-Rhone 9 Asb Jupiter VII engine. 1931, project only
Loire-43 was a high gull-wing all-metal single-seat fighter prototype. Initial projected engine Gnome-Rhône 14 Kbs. 1 built, powered by one 690 hp Hispano-Suiza 12 Xbrs. 1st flight 17 Oct. 1932
Loire-44 was a single-seat lightweight fighter project twin boom configuration with Gnome-Rhône Jupiter engine in pusher position. 1931, project only
Loire-45 was a single-seat fighter, it was initially the second prototype of Loire 43, also called Loire 43bis, with a 740 hp Gnome-Rhône 14Kds engine. 1st flight 20 Feb. 1933. It was later re-engined with a 880 hp 14Kcs, and then later by a 900 hp Gnome-Rhone 14Kfs. 1 built, 1st flight 18 Jul. 1935. It became Loire 45LP by adding the parachute launching system
Loire-46 was a high wing monoplane fighter derived from Loire 45. One prototype built with a 880 hp Gnome-Rhône 14Kes, 1st flight 1 Sep.1934. Sixty built in series, powered by a 945 hp Gnome-Rhône 14Kfs
Loire-50 was a small three-seat training and liaison amphibian with pusher 230 hp Salmson 9Ab engine. 1 built, 1st flight 7 Sep.1931
Loire-50bis was the same aircraft reengined with Hispano-Suiza 9 Qd engine, then 950 hp 9Qdr. 1st flight 18 Oct. 1933
Loire-501 was a production version of Loire 50 bis as liaison type for Aéronavale with one 350 hp Hispano-Suiza 9Qdr engine. Six built, 1st flight 13 Mar. 1935
Loire-502 was a projected variant with 300 hp Lorraine Algol 9Na engine. Project only
Loire-51 was a 2-seat project version of Loire 50,with long distance capacity, powered by a 230 hp Salmson 9Ab. 1931, project only
Loire-52 was a liaison amphibian version, powered by a 380 hp Jupiter 9Aa or au 380 hp Gnome-Rhône 9Aa. 1931, project only
Loire-53 was a projected three-seat trainer and coastal surveillance variant of the Loire 50, with a 350 hp Hispano-Suiza 9Qdr engine. 1931, project only
Loire-60 was a four-seat colonial liaison flying boat with three 95 hp Renault 4Pb engines. 1 built, 1st flight 11 May 1932
Loire-601 was a former Loire 60 reengined with just one 350 hp Gnome-Rhône 9Adx engine. 1 modified. 1st flight 16 Aug.1933
Loire-602 was the same aircraft with a tractor 230 hp Salmson 9Ad engine. Technical demonstrator for Loire 70. Project only
Loire-603 was a coastal surveillance seaplane project, powered by one 350 hp Hispano-Suiza 9 Qdr. 1934, project only
Loire-61 was derived from the Loire 60 with a single engine and reduced wing area. 1934, project only
Loire-62 was a projected two-seat trainer variant of the Loire 601, with one 380 hp Gnome-Rhone 9Adx or one 350 hp Gnome-Rhone 9Qdr Jupiter engine engine. 1934, project only
Loire-63 was a projected three-seat observation variant of the Loire 601, with 350 hp Hispano-Suiza 9Qdr engine. 1934, project only
Loire-70 was a maritime patrol and recce flying boat with three 500 hp Gnome-Rhone K.9 engines, including one in pusher position. 1 prototype, 1st flight 28 Dec 1933
Loire-70S was the production series of the Loire 70, with three 740 hp Gnome-Rhone K.9fr Mistral engines. Seven built, 1st flight 24 Mar. 1937
Loire-701 was the civil version of the Loire 70 re-engined with Hispano-Suiza engines. Project only
Loire-71 was a mediterranean seaplane version. 1935, project only
Loire-80 was a commercial flying boat with 3 or 4 Gnome-Rhône 9Ab engines for Marseilles-Algiers. Project only
Loire-90 was tested in wind tunnel in June 1935. No information. Project only
Loire-100 was a flying boat for the South Atlantic, four push-pull HS 9V engines in pylons on the wings, then four 12Xbrs.1. Project only
Loire-101 was a similar to the Loire 100, same engines in tractor position in front of the wing. Project only
Loire-102 Bretagne was a large transatlantic transport prototype, powered by four 720 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Xgrs 1 engines. 1 built, 1st flight 12 May 1936
Unknown ref. military variant of the Loire 102. Project only
Loire-110 was a biplane single-seat fighter (C1) with one Hispano-Suiza engine. 1930, project only
Loire-111 was a version of the Loire 110 with one Gnome-Rhône engine. 1930, project only
Loire-120 & Loire-121 were floatplanes studied in 1931. Projects only
Loire-130 was a high wing three crew and four passenger catapult-launched pusher patrol flying boat, powered by one 720 hp Hispano-Suiza Xirs engine. 1 prototype, 1st flight 19 Nov. 1934
Loire-130 Métropole was the series production with one 720 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Xirs.1 engine for operation in metropole. 99 built
Loire-130 Colonial was the series production with reinforced structure and one 720 hp Hispano-Suiza 12Xirs.1 engine for operation in the colonies. 25 built
Loire-130 amélioré was an improved version with extended engine nacelle. 2 modified
Loire-135 was a coastal observation variant of the Loire 130. Project only
Loire-21 was a single seat low-wing catapult-launched fighter seaplane, powered by one 720 hp Hispano-Suiza 9Vbs engine. One built, 1st flight 21 Mar. 1935
Loire-210 was the series version of the Loire 21. Twenty built, 1st flight 18 Nov. 1938
Loire-211 the Loire 21 prototype re-engined with one 780 hp Gnome-Rhône 14Kfr. 1 modified, 1st flight end 1935
Loire-212 was planned to be the Loire 210 n° 2 re-engined with 720 hp Gnome-Rhône 14 Mars. Project only
Loire-240 was torpedo seaplane, later redesigned as Loire-Nieuport LN-10. 1 built, 1st flight 21 Jul. 1939
Loire-250 was a single seat low-wing fighter monoplane, powered by one 1000 hp Hispano-Suiza 14Ha engine. 1 built, 1st flight 26 Sep. 1935
Loire-26 was a single seat fighter tested on Eiffel wind tunnel in September 1935. Project only
Loire-260 was reserved for production of Loire 26. Not used

 

[hesham]

Amazing work dear Philippe,

but can I ask you about the gaps,from Loire-140 to Loire-200,and Loire-220
& Loire-230 ?,there is no sense from the company itself to jump those designations
at all,no reason for that !.

 

[PhR]

Amazing work dear Philippe,

but can I ask you about the gaps,from Loire-140 to Loire-200,and Loire-220
& Loire-230 ?,there is no sense from the company itself to jump those designations
at all,no reason for that !.

Do you really want to restart this discussion? We already had it about SNCASE designations...
Gaps must stay gaps. Without any valid reference, we can suppose anything, but it does not have any value. Maybe the Loire 247 was a rocket powered bicycle? We can imagine everything.
By experience, numbers are not a rule, it's just a choice.

The most probable is that the numbers in the holes were just never used. The reason is unknown, but there is no valid reason to believe that they were ever used. If anyone provides a valid document referring to other projects whose designation completes the list, I would be particularly happy to add it.

Please stop trying to plug the holes just by what you think to be "logic". You create false information and generate fully erroneous legends. Your imagination is not the way the history unfold.

 

[hesham]

Do you really want to restart this discussion? We already had it about SNCASE designations...
Gaps must stay gaps. Without any valid reference, we can suppose anything, but it does not have any value. Maybe the Loire 247 was a rocket powered bicycle? We can imagine everything.
By experience, numbers are not a rule, it's just a choice.

The most probable is that the numbers in the holes were just never used. The reason is unknown, but there is no valid reason to believe that they were ever used. If anyone provides a valid document referring to other projects whose designation completes the list, I would be particularly happy to add it.

Please stop trying to plug the holes just by what you think to be "logic". You create false information and generate fully erroneous legends. Your imagination is not the way the history unfold.

I don't ask about that at all,I asked about the company itself,how you found its
Full archive, and it has those gaps ?.

 

[PhR]

I don't ask about that at all,I asked about the company itself,how you found its
Full archive, and it has those gaps ?.

This is a fact.
The most likely reason is that these designations were never used.

 

[Arjen]

Exasperating as that is to some, reality doesn't always comply with the 'logic' we try to impose on it.

To stay sane, or indeed alive, that 'logic' at times needs modifying. Lest we find ourselves in, say, a rapidly sinking car, in the middle of a river, because the 'logic' of the satnav shows a bridge in the very place where reality stubbornly refuses to have one. There might have been one there in the past, but that, sadly, will not do when one wishes to drive from one river bank to the other.

Merry christmas all!

 

[hesham]

There is a reliable French sources,and to know that,I didn't fake anything,
please look to this site and they mentioned Loire-21;

Wind tunnel model test curves.
General dimensions of the Loire 21 "seaplane glider" (two examples).
Correspondence.

Voyages d'études missions | Service historique de la Défense

www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr