Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[bring_it_on]

What about the XA100 and XA101 engines?

Those were demonstrators. You still need to fund a multi-year EMD program for an F-35 re-engine. You are probably looking at a double digit billion-dollar effort?

 

[TomcatViP]

Not really a compelling argument when the jets you've listed aren't exactly flying supercomputers... I doubt being able to replace hydraulic actuators on those 4th gen jets is the same as replacing an electric actuator that likely is hard coded and requires codes so that the flight computer acknowledges new hardware... Lockheed taking notes from Apple I presume..

You seem to think that whatever predates the intrepid codder working from home was elementary stuff just a bit more complicated that the good old bone crusher from our grandfather Neanderthal.

 

[sferrin]

There is no kill switch. That's ridiculous to say so. And rather insulting for the nations that, often after stringent comparative evaluations, choose to replace their existing fleet with the F-35.*

The USA are still member of NATO also. I reckon the urgency with the late US administration, but giving €800b to the words out of the mouth of President Trump is certainly a bit higher that he would have himself valued it.
Good for Europe defense as a whole... but

Spoiler: a bit of harsh language

contingencies are not Hysterical hysterectomy. Let's keep our mind cool

*see an earlier quotation from the Belgian Air Force General, basically saying that there wasn't any more remote control with F-35 than any with their ex Dassault Mirage.

Europeans are just mad that we don't want to keep flinging endless billions of dollars into a pointless war. Just look at some of the language in this thread. They're branding us their ENEMIES for god's sake. Like a spoiled child who says they hate their mom because she won't buy them a toy at the store.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Europeans are just mad that we don't want to keep flinging endless billions of dollars into a pointless war. Just look at some of the language in this thread. They're branding us their ENEMIES for god's sake. Like a spoiled child who says they hate their mom because she won't buy them a toy at the store.

I know this is "political" but I think it's important to the context of this thread.

Trumps trade war with Canada and his insults of the Canadian Prime Minister as "governor" and insinuations of taking over Canada as the 51st state, have irretrievably damaged America's standing with all its allies.

Trump himself signed the free trade agreement he is allegedly objecting to. In this case, no agreement of any kind with America is worth the paper its written on. If he behaves like this with his neighbour, who can trust America with providing them with spares for their F-35s if Europe ends up fighting Russia?

You can see this in recent German talks with France and the UK on nuclear weapons. Germany no longer trusts America to provide a nuclear umbrella.

This could destroy the F-35 export market overnight.

 

[sferrin]

I know this is "political" but I don't care this time.

Trumps trade war with Canada and his insults of the Canadian Prime Minister and insinuations of taking over Canada as the 51st state, have irretrievably damaged America's standing with all its allies.

You can see this in German talks with France and the UK on nuclear weapons.

This could destroy the F-35 export market overnight.

And of course Canadians or Europeans have NEVER said anything bad about Trump, right?

As for "trade war" I guess you were unaware that Canada has had tariffs on US products for decades?

 

[Halcyon66]

Europeans are just mad that we don't want to keep flinging endless billions of dollars into a pointless war. Just look at some of the language in this thread. They're branding us their ENEMIES for god's sake. Like a spoiled child who says they hate their mom because she won't buy them a toy at the store.

Not so sure it is a pointless war.

When the US calls everyone comes, for how many years now?

World is a different place now.

Regards,

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

And of course Canadians or Europeans have NEVER said anything bad about Trump, right?

As for "trade war" I guess you were unaware that Canada has had tariffs on US products for decades?

Canada signed a free trade agreement WITH TRUMP only a few years ago which was heralded BY TRUMP as the best trade deal ever. It excluded some tariffs (mostly quota-based) to preserve some certain Canadian industries.

Everyone sane is suffering from whiplash over it suddenly now being the worst trade deal ever made.

J D Vance is explicitly in the "might makes right" camp along with Trump. America can pressure Canada's economy to bully them into doing what America wants, so it should.

Ordinary people in Europe, Australia, New Zealand are stopping buying American products in solidarity with Canada. Allied Governments are wondering how they can secure themselves against aggressors if America can't be trusted to obey its treaty obligations.

I don't see how this ends well for anyone, including Americans.

Anyway, I've violated the rules enough. Back to F-35 news.

 

[Jackonicko]

I know this is "political" but I think it's important to the context of this thread.

... If he behaves like this with his neighbour, who can trust America with providing them with spares for their F-35s if Europe ends up fighting Russia?

This could destroy the F-35 export market overnight.

Never mind spares, who's going to rely on the (US controlled) mission planner not being 'bricked'? That ALIS/ODIN won't go offline, rendering your aircraft effectively non-airworthy? That the 350th SWW won't stop the flow of Mission Data?

 

[sferrin]

Never mind spares, who's going to rely on the (US controlled) mission planner not being 'bricked'? That ALIS/ODIN won't go offline, rendering your aircraft effectively non-airworthy? That the 350th SWW won't stop the flow of Mission Data?

Uh Europe can, and does, do the same thing. It's not like the US is alone in this ability.

 

[Ainen]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1899040201894154459

View: https://x.com/Justin_Br0nk/status/1899040201894154459


Useful context.
I guess, the argument really is between two sides: one, when buying F-35, assumed they're extending this list (all your targeting capacity, BLOS comms, penetrating/orbital ISR and the munitions and direct force protection up to nuclear) to their country. For F-35 price alone.

Another is that this whole list (many trillions worth) shall extend into everywhere, indefinitely, based on perceived common good.

Either way is not a bad deal.

 

[Halcyon66]

It is also going to end up hurting the US defence industry, US defense stocks are down and EU are up?

How Trump Is Killing the U.S. Defense Industry​

It turns out that abandoning allies and tossing out security guarantees is bad for business.

foreignpolicy.com
Absolutely none of this makes any sense.

Regards,

Word to the wise: The market is never rational. Don't read too much into the stock prices.

Citigroup cuts US stocks, raises China on pause in US exceptionalism

[SINGAPORE] Citigroup downgraded US equities to neutral from overweight while upgrading China to overweight, saying that US exceptionalism is at least on pause. Read more at The Business Times.

www.businesstimes.com.sg

https://www.moneycontrol.com/world/citi-cuts-us-stocks-to-neutral-raises-china-to-overweight-on-pause-in-us-exceptionalism-article-12961482.html

Who would have thought?????

Regards.

 

[Richard N]

When Trump claims that Ukraine caused the war and Trump's cabinet members refuse to give a straight yes or no answer to the question "Did Russia start the war in Ukraine", I do not see how any potential buyer of the F-35 could feel secure in the knowledge that the Trump administration could be trusted to act legally bound to any contract or agreement.

I am an American and worked for a major defense contractor and after watching the Trump administration treat our allies like enemies and Russia like a friend, I would advise our European F-35 customers in their best interest to build their own weapon systems outside of the US loop to prevent the inconvenient applications of the OFF SWITCH that the Ukrainians have experienced while Russian missiles and bombs kill their people.

 

[Halcyon66]

Well said +++++

Regards,

 

[had]

There is even a working F-35a example for how Lockheed Martin could address some of the new concerns. The Israeli F-35Is..

U.S. had agreed to allow Israel to install its own electronic warfare systems and missiles in its F-35s.. (Wiki)

To the supply chains issue. I think the whole supply system is still "Just-In-Time" based. Not something you would like in a war with a (near) peer adversary or if you are getting stuff from an untrustworthy ally.
Perhaps we will see now some changes in this regard too, so all of these "developments" could end in something positive.

 

[bring_it_on]

The question is who would continue to import?

There are what 20 total nations that operate or have chosen to operate the F-35? There you go, that's a good list. Some of those still have not received aircraft, others will probably order more over the next 10-15 years. New customers were always expected to slow down as the list got large and that trend pre-dates any of the current political turn of events. There will still be countries including European ones who will look to have strong bi-lateral relations with the US. Including covering the security dimension.

What you've described (the 'realignment') would/could impact future programs. When there are real, viable operational jets that offer 5, 5+ or 6th gen alternatives. GCAP and SCAF are mid to late 2030s capabilities even if they are accelerated. One or both of them could be pushed to 2040 if there are financial or technical challenges (encountered by most if not all high end efforts). If European spending levels for most powerful economies grow to 2.5 or 3+%, I expect those trends to accelerate. But unless that happens the odds of these viable alternatives to be developed and fielded in a timely fashion to compete against block 4 or block 5 F-35 sales in the 2030s may not be so great as they may appear on paper when these projects are still starting out. Long term trends don't look good for trans atlantic partnership and defense sales. But short to mid term we may not see a lot of impact.

 

[kqcke for you]

Guys how about se just get back to F-35. If you are going to talk about it more then do it in a thread for it and not here. Because it is an important theme in the current geopolitical situation but thats not the point of this thread.

 

[Ainen]

you speak like a traitor.

May we drop temperature a bit?
Doesn't sound like many of us here are on starlink(traitor supplied) from a trench either.

F-35 deal didn't change anyhow recently. If anyone is surprised US help is not unconditional - well, you missed those Turkish f-35s.

 

[Jemiba]

Posts lapping too much into politics were transferred to a PM for the participants.
Further such posts will be deleted without any comment

 

[Avimimus]

Posts lapping too much into politics were transferred to a PM for the participants.
Further such posts will be deleted without any comment

There is a technical question of whether it is possible to:
1) Ensure there are no back-doors or code vulnerabilities
2) Ensure that software and avionics can be upgraded without U.S. support
3) Separate the supply chain for spare parts (e.g. establish production in Europe)

These three questions are largely technological questions (which veer in some cases into issues around intellectual property and export restrictions). So I'd propose that these three questions aren't political (even if the reasons why they are being asked are tied to political developments) - and it may be possible to approach them entirely as technical/industrial questions.

The question is more whether people can discuss them without bringing in the political context.

 

[kqcke for you]

There is a technical question of whether it is possible to:
1) Ensure there are no back-doors or code vulnerabilities
2) Ensure that software and avionics can be upgraded without U.S. support
3) Separate the supply chain for spare parts (e.g. establish production in Europe)

For that we would need to get control over the software which nobody outside the US got. Even Israel doesn't seem to have it to that level which just shows how easy it is.
One solution could be:
- That said ALIS or ODIN would need to be run by a european company which then shares there data with the US one.
- Software would need to be done by 2 teams. The american and the european (or Others) for increased freedom but also the ability to compare so we don't evolve into too seperate interations when wo don't want it.
- also any kind of data Base would need to have an EU alternative in case they shut of access

 

[NMaude]

Alex Hollings from Sandboxx has put out a short video about whether or not the F-35 has a "Kill Switch":

There's been a lot of talk lately about the possibility that the United States might possess an F-35 kill switch that can stop other nations from operating these advanced stealth jets. The truth is... more complicated than that.

Edit: It occurred to me that those individuals worrying about a hidden "Kill Switch" subroutine buried amongst the 8 million SLOCs have been watching way TOO much Battlestar Galactica.

 

[Halcyon66]

If there wasn't one before I sure the next update will have one

The F-35 'Kill Switch': Separating Myth from Reality

With heightened tensions between Europe and the United States over NATO and Ukraine, the myth of an F-35 "kill switch", which would supposedly allow the

theaviationist.com

Also, another interesting point is there are now some 24 million lines of code—operational and support—needed for the F-35 to be fully operational; when the program started, the estimated number of lines of code required was closer to 15 million.

That's a lot of code........

Regards,

 

[Ainen]

Edit: It occurred to me that those individuals worrying about a hidden "Kill Switch" subroutine buried amongst the 8 million SLOCs have been watching way TOO much Battlestar Galactica.

I guess driving modern car is enough to fuel some...suspicions about sevice model

 

[Forest Green]

You Don't Need A Kill Switch To Hobble Exported F-35s

The U.S. doesn't have to rely on a kill switch to rapidly degrade and soon end a foreign country's ability to use its F-35s.

www.twz.com

 

[fightingirish]

Hi folks, here a very interesting podcast episode about the USMC F-35B Demonstration Team. Oorah!

Flying the F-35B Lightning II Demo (ep. 201)
The #f35b Lightning ll is an aircraft like no other—going from a short takeoff to a supersonic dash to hovering in midair, all in seconds. And in the hands of a proficient #usmarinecorps #pilot, not only does this ability ensure winning in combat, it is sure to amaze at an #airshow.
On this episode, Marine Majors Craig "Brembo" Norris and Craig "Chuckles" Turner explain the #stovl #f35 variant and how they fly it at airshows to inspire the next batch of #marinecorps #pilots. [...]

Video:

View: https://youtu.be/un1YCz8-aho?si=wa34hafQQ7ru0v4B

Link:

https://youtu.be/un1YCz8-aho?si=wa34hafQQ7ru0v4B