Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

Really makes me scratch my head considering how much the USMC has been advocating their restructure plan. Which is a context in which the F-35B's STOVL capability really makes sense.
 
So does that mean that the USMC will stop all future production of the America class carriers and being more reliant on the large US Navy aircraft carriers in the future?
 
I do wonder if there was some pressure from big Navy for more a USMC commitment to make up for a shortfall in fighter numbers. I could be mistaken but I think Harriers were once tested on the USN CVs and while feasible it was somewhat disrupting to the operation of the regular CATOBAR types.
 
USMC aircraft are doctrinally meant to escape from LHAs at first opportunity. LHAs are sinkable, don't really support high mission rates, and can Guadalcanal away.
There was some expectation that F-35B is kinda complex for forward operations, but USMC recently very apparently found the way.

Conversely, USMC CATOBAR aircraft operating from big decks probably won't run away - being additionnal US navy aircraft in this sense.
 
I've always thought the Marines were buying too many F-35Bs. The trade off for runway flexibility was range and payload. There are only so many big deck aphibs. They can carry no more than 20 F-35Bs, but how many of these ships will be available in a fight over Taiwan. Some will need carry Marines and vertical lift. It is thought that F-35Bs could operate out of EABOs close to Taiwan. But how many viable locations are there? And how many F-35Bs can the Marines logistically support at these locations with fuel, munitions, force protection, and support personnel. The link below illustrates the difficulty of this concept. This concept might have worked in the GWOT, but to be able to generate a tactically significant sorties by relying on C-17s to bring in fuel seems a bridge too far.

https://www.twz.com/air/we-went-to-mock-war-with-marine-f-35bs-on-a-pacific-island

The F-35C with its longer range and payload gives you the option to operate from land bases in Japan and the PI, supported by tankers, or carriers. Carrier wings are smaller than they were during the Cold War. There is deck space for more aircraft. The US Navy also does not have an attrition reserve. Additional active and reserve Marine F-35C units will enable the Navy to replace aircraft lost to combat.
 
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Bounce said:
India rejected it, doubt they're interested now.
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Oh yeah, it's more of a sign that 'we want better ties'. Though to be fair since Rubio and Hegseth are cabinet members, I do want to know who is the shadow secretary. Especially Hegseth since it looked like he was completely reading his speech word to word from the iPad.
 
Bounce said:
F-35s to India, does this mean Turkey can get theirs now since India operates S400 also?


www.newsweek.com

Trump announces plan to equip India with F-35 stealth fighters

The advanced fighter jet is a major asset for India, which has strengthened defense ties with the U.S. in recent years.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
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No Turkey we cant sell you the F-35 you have the S-400.
India has S-400 and they might get F-35s.
I guess my analysis stands corrected that Turkey is the 3rd most hated country behind russia and china by the west (it's always the countries that are modernizing and growing their military)

I think there was a story that Russian media got pissed before that India bought like some of their submarines and then they were showcasing it to some NATO members. Trusting India of all countries and I think not too long ago they bought an additional S-400.
 
Null said:
No Turkey we cant sell you the F-35 you have the S-400.
India has S-400 and they might get F-35s.
I guess my analysis stands corrected that Turkey is the 3rd most hated country behind russia and china by the west (it's always the countries that are modernizing and growing their military)

I think there was a story that Russian media got pissed before that India bought like some of their submarines and then they were showcasing it to some NATO members. Trusting India of all countries and I think not too long ago they bought an additional S-400.
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No, it's more likely that Trump is presenting offers to reduce trade deficits. That's how his thinking goes.
 
indicisivedivide said:
No, it's more likely that Trump is presenting offers to reduce trade deficits. That's how his thinking goes.
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Fingers crossed india doesn't sell the radar data from the S-400 or flies the aircraft to Russia. It's like his 4-year term is how many people can I piss off Guinness world record
 
Null said:
Fingers crossed india doesn't sell the radar data from the S-400 or flies the aircraft to Russia. It's like his 4-year term is how many people can I piss off Guinness world record
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Again relax, this is all for show. We have so many conflicting information from the current administration. We know they are moving fast because in the miderms the House will flip and work will slowdown.
 
Null said:
No Turkey we cant sell you the F-35 you have the S-400.
India has S-400 and they might get F-35s.
I guess my analysis stands corrected that Turkey is the 3rd most hated country behind russia and china by the west (it's always the countries that are modernizing and growing their military)

I think there was a story that Russian media got pissed before that India bought like some of their submarines and then they were showcasing it to some NATO members. Trusting India of all countries and I think not too long ago they bought an additional S-400.
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Told (all of) ya. Kicking Turkey out was never due to technical reasons.

If you had been following the Turkish Ministry of Defense's news, you would have seen in every press release with their U.S. counterparts that they have been trying to negotiate a workaround to ensure that confidential data remains secure and does not get leaked to Russia. However, the Americans, in their hubris and self-entitlement, never wanted to reach a compromise with their NATO ally and have repeatedly denied their offers.

snne said:
They don't even let Luneburg-lens wearing F-35s near Turkish airspace. And the S-400s that they made a big deal of are not even active. On top of that, there's still the CAATSA on Turkey that they haven't applied to India.

All the excuses that self-entitled America makes are political bullcr.p as always. What a way to treat your NATO ally, huh?
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snne said:
If it was all about gaining intel on modern Russian systems; why block the sale of F-35s to Turkey, an important NATO ally, at the last minute then? Why also kick their industrial participation out if all of this bullshittery that America has caused wasn't political, just technical according to the position the US has taken regarding this issue? They could've even had this same kind of experience in a controlled manner in a NATO country; they could've participated in multinational exercises (which is something Turkey already offers) against the S-400 in a controlled environment if it really meant a lot for them. Moreover, it isn't just Israel that gives feedback to America, there's a whole list of F-35 operators that also gain experience in a set of diverse environments that send feedback to Lockheed.

---I've received replies from 3 different people till now and all of your inability to come up with a single credible reason why America is right to support Israel to the very end and right to give away F-35s without any supervision whatsoever really strengthens my point here.----

This is my last post on this topic that I've started; so cheers to all :)
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snne said:
The one who holds the leash considers Turkey to be their next regional rival after they've neutered Egypt, S.Arabia and in the future, Iran.

If it wasn't for their support, this weak axis of lobbyism against Turkey wouldn't have succeeded in kicking Turkey out and holding their planes captive. To add to all of this, Erdogan's stubborn idiocracy didn't help Turkey's case either since it gave the US the perfect excuse.
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snne said:
Then why haven't they? The S-400 batteries have been kept in storage ever since they were airlifted to Turkey so there's no excuse to not flying F-35s over to local Turkish exercises as they do with everyone else including Greece.

Moreover, why don't they ever fly those shiny F-35s alongside Turkish F-16s in international exercises?
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snne said:
I'm repeating myself for the millionth time, but the whole S-400 deal was just an excuse for the US; the reasons behind kicking Turkey out are purely geopolitical since the only thing that has ever kept the US and Turkey together and kept the alliance functional was the threat of the USSR; and since then the Americans have partnered with and legitimized yet another terrorist group in the Middle East and casted the security of yet another ally of theirs aside.

It's just that Erdogan gave them a bland but perfect excuse on a silver platter and the whole induction timeline for the Kaan fighter (that was initially designed to complement the F-35 à la F-35&F-22) was not only changed but accelerated due to the looming threat of obsolescence. That means back in 2018 they literally had to sit down with the Air Force Command again, realign the requirements and painfully redesign the aircraft from scratch.

So don't expect such a deal happening ever again.
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snne said:
When talking about Turkey possibly rejoining the programme, people are almost always missing out what's probably the important aspect of the clusterfudge that this whole this has become.

I recommend reading the whole thread.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1841495137819463794
View: https://x.com/OguzArikboga/status/1841495137819463794


View attachment 742824
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snne said:
Actually, no. Those 6 already built, delivered and still TuAF-owned F-35s need to go under a deep maintenance, update and be used for extensive training again. And the production slots for the rest of the ordered planes were given to USAF so imo Turkey will have to wait at least until 2032-33 for new planes.

So TuAF might as well bite the bullet and wait for Kaan. The Navy OTOH would benefit greatly from having F-35Bs at their disposal but as I've mentioned, they are already commited to 3 different -indigenous - aircraft types as replacements (which is not ideal but fine enough):



All of this meaning: Hold your horses...

resized_e9e73-94ea878dresized_97c3c0acb158dmansetc.jpg
turkish-f-35s-waiting-in-hangar-since-they-kicked-out-of-v0-1p6ml1h13z8c1.jpeg

3 instructor pilots have already been trained but obviously since it was long ago they'd have to go back to training again if Turkey ever returns to the program.

As a fun fact, the similators were already shipped to Turkey when it got kicked out.

GFQs5RRXwAAZ0IJ
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snne said:
Military Equipment Sales are very meticulous deals and there are all kinds of export controls in place for potential resales of equipment; simply put you can't give the equipment to a 3rd party without Russian blessing. Remember all that noise about (ex-East) German howitzers (or was that some other kind of artillery equipment?) that Lithuania wanted to provide to Ukraine in the first year of the war?


Secondly but most importantly, Turkey and Russia actually share not just borders but also a long history of bloodly conflict and rivalry. The fact that Turkey isn't located at the western end of Europe like France, UK or Germany (Central-West) means that they don't get to be reckless with their actions against Russia because no one else will have their back as seen in the 2015 Su-24 shoot-down incident.

And lastly, international politics. The whole reason Turkey purchased the S-400s in spite of the US in the firs place was to give them a political middle finger due to their meddling in Turkish politics and also American actions in Syria that affects Turkish security (because unlike the US, Turkey doesn't come from thousands of kms away to right down its border with Syria, what happens there actually has consequences for Turkey)

View attachment 737025
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snne said:
Its not simple as that. Granted the S-400 gave the Americans the perfect excuse but it was a breaking point rather than a reason.

There are/were a lot of other issues between Turkey and the USA. US-YPG partnership in Syria, non-extradition of the Fetullah Gulen, Brunson crisis, etc... The S-400 gave the US the perfect excuse to take a drastic action against Turkey.

They didn't just stop the delivery of Turkish F-35s, they kicked Turkey out of the whole program. They're now replacing Turkish industrial participation with Germany.

Nowadays both countries are only allies on paper. US even shot down a Turkish drone only a month ago...
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snne said:
That would never work. For starters, Turkey and Russia are neighbours and they have been rivals for the last 500+ years. This means that any transfer of systems without Russian consent means a breach of end user contract, and it would have grave consequenses for Turkey.

The US may afford to provoke Russia since there's an ocean between them but any risky move Turkish government does will have lasting consequences for not just Tukish-Russian relations but for the whole Black Sea region.
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Null said:
Fingers crossed india doesn't sell the radar data from the S-400 or flies the aircraft to Russia. It's like his 4-year term is how many people can I piss off Guinness world record
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No not going to happen. If such a deal is actually presented, though I think Trump talking about such a deal in the media might actually be breaking news for Modi himself then major concessions will be made from India's side.
 
GTX said:
Re India, just remember that there is a process to be worked through for any FMS buys...unless that is now thrown out the window.
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It seems unlikely that process is completely abandoned and such deals often take years to negotiate, assuming the administration has any intention of following through. I think the comment is safely ignored for the moment.
 
www.twz.com

Trump Offers India Path To F-35

As India sits at a fork in the road for its future fighter fleet plans, the U.S. has just upped the ante with the prospect of F-35 deliveries. As India sits at a fork in the road for its future fighter fleet plans, the U.S. has just upped the ante with the prospect of F-35 deliveries.
www.twz.com www.twz.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1890441249959612690
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1890441249959612690

https://twitter.com/x/status/1890585093078503711
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1890585093078503711
 
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Scott Kenny said:
IIRC, FMS process is a legally required thing, where Congress must approve the sale.
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Just like abiding by the Appropriations Clause of the US constitution and Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act...just saying. :cool:

Anyway, let's wait and watch. Regardless of what has been said or what 'approach' is taken, nothing will happen fast.
 
Scott Kenny said:
IIRC, FMS process is a legally required thing, where Congress must approve the sale.
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The current Congress is quite pliable, though unless FMS comes under the umbrella of reconciliation I see the democrats in the senate killing it just out of spite. And quite honestly the chances of the GOP keeping the House are super low if inflation increases rather than decreases. Like I said, safety ignored, at least for the moment.
 
Josh_TN said:
Do the flight decks differ appreciably from Wasp?
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According to wiki, the island is slightly altered to create flight-deck space for V-22 maintenance to make up for the smaller hangar.
 

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