Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

[sferrin]

First 5 minutes of the presentation

Post #1749

Thanks! Saw in a pilot interview that it can supercruise on the deck.

 

[FighterJock]

First 5 minutes of the presentation

Post #1749

Thanks! Saw in a pilot interview that it can supercruise on the deck.

What else do we not know about the performance of the F-22.

 

[Forest Green]

1500ft takeoff run. Supersonic (could) by the end of the rwy. Wow!

Supersonic at 1500ft - must trap about 750mph in the quarter.

 

[TomcatViP]

Just to give some perspectives, 1500ft is what a LSA with two 40+ years old pilots onboard will do... With favorable head wind.

 

[BDF]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lltMfkj1yPU

...... Although the thermal and aerodynamic limit may suggest Mach 2.4+, the envelope chart indicates that operationally, the limits are Mach 2.0 and 60,000 ft likely due to maintenance and pilot emergency considerations, despite the immense excess thrust available.

Part of the ATF program was advance crew protection systems. Northrop's was the Advanced Fighter Crew Protection System. It was a 5 or 6 in one suite that provided multiple functions. One of them was providing protection for the crew from rapid decompression. The requirement was provide protection from 70Kft to 55Kft and 55Kft for 30min. The Northrop suit was chamber tested up to 95kft. I believe Lockheed's solution was somewhat cut down from the original solution as it no longer has a full encompassing pressure helmet. This is yet another clue as to the incredible kinetic capabilities of the ATF designs.

 

[BDF]

What else do we not know about the performance of the F-22.

I'm firmly convinced based on what limited data and anecdotes that have been revealed thus far that the Raptor's real dry thrust envelope is much larger than published. Too many anecdotes from Raptor pilots have indicated that its capable of SC much higher than advertised. Even "Stretch" Scott's interview he said it'll SC "from low 40s to high 50s, somewhere between 45 and 60 thousand feet easily running around at one point five mach with ability to sprint to two." It's just a monster.

 

[FighterJock]

What else do we not know about the performance of the F-22.

I'm firmly convinced based on what limited data and anecdotes that have been revealed thus far that the Raptor's real dry thrust envelope is much larger than published. Too many anecdotes from Raptor pilots have indicated that its capable of SC much higher than advertised. Even "Stretch" Scott's interview he said it'll SC "from low 40s to high 50s, somewhere between 45 and 60 thousand feet easily running around at one point five mach with ability to sprint to two." It's just a monster.

These figures really make the F-22 the best 5th generation fighter in the world.

 

[aonestudio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1603245007774818305

View: https://twitter.com/Fighterman_FFRC/status/1603245007774818305

 

[Dreamfighter]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1603245007774818305

View: https://twitter.com/Fighterman_FFRC/status/1603245007774818305

A Raptor in Hill Country

TYNDALL AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. -- An F-22 Raptor previously assigned to the 325th Fighter Wing was loaded onto a C-5 Galaxy and taken from Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida, to the Hill Aerospace Museum

www.acc.af.mil

 

[Dreamfighter]

I thought the AF´s plan to retire the oldest 33(?) non-combat coded block 20 jets (instead of upgrading them), was yet to be approved... Am I wrong about that?
Or could this be an F-22 damaged by hurricane Michael, and repairs deemed too expensive and therefore being retired to the museum?

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

A Raptor in Hill Country

TYNDALL AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. -- An F-22 Raptor previously assigned to the 325th Fighter Wing was loaded onto a C-5 Galaxy and taken from Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida, to the Hill Aerospace Museum

www.tyndall.af.mil

From this article, it’s one of Tyndall’s jets, so likely a Block 20. That said, all aircraft survived Hurricane Michael but the squadron at Tyndall has had a number of landing gear incidents, likely due to maintenance problems from this unit. Perhaps it’s one of these jets that’s being placed at the museum.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1605305543647559680

View: https://twitter.com/Fighterman_FFRC/status/1605305543647559680

That Raptor would be one of the lucky ones, because in the long run, the majority of these beautiful planes are probably gonna be sitting in a boneyard somewhere...or if Congress lifts the ban, be given to allies for their own use

 

[Foo Fighter]

So, no billionaires toy then? Not that you could be type certified by the local flying school, to big a jump from a Cessna et al.

 

[Josh_TN]

There’s no way that any F-22 ever ends up anywhere but Tucson, a museum, or scrap yard. But they are slated to remain in service and get upgrades through this decade at least.

 

[sferrin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1603245007774818305

View: https://twitter.com/Fighterman_FFRC/status/1603245007774818305

A Raptor in Hill Country

TYNDALL AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. -- An F-22 Raptor previously assigned to the 325th Fighter Wing was loaded onto a C-5 Galaxy and taken from Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida, to the Hill Aerospace Museum

www.acc.af.mil

If it has to go somewhere may as well be here.

 

[aonestudio]

F-22 Test Pilot Details The Raptor’s Incredible Speed

A chief test pilot on both the F-117 and the F-22, James “JB” Brown III, provides a fascinating inside look at these remarkable stealth jets.

www.thedrive.com

 

[sferrin]

F-22 Test Pilot Details The Raptor’s Incredible Speed

A chief test pilot on both the F-117 and the F-22, James “JB” Brown III, provides a fascinating inside look at these remarkable stealth jets.

www.thedrive.com

See post 1766 up the page.

 

[FighterJock]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1603245007774818305

View: https://twitter.com/Fighterman_FFRC/status/1603245007774818305

A Raptor in Hill Country

TYNDALL AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. -- An F-22 Raptor previously assigned to the 325th Fighter Wing was loaded onto a C-5 Galaxy and taken from Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida, to the Hill Aerospace Museum

www.acc.af.mil

If it has to go somewhere may as well be here.

The F-22 in a museum already? At least it is safe from the boneyard and from getting cut up and destroyed.

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

Speaking of museums, this little detail has certainly annoyed me.

F-22 S/N 91-4003, the third EMD jet, is currently displayed at the National Museum of the United States Air Force. For a brief period after it was initially displayed, however, its HUD was mounted backwards. Fortunately they've since corrected that, but now I can't unsee this image.

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

Hill Aerospace Museum receives a Raptor

Christmas came early for the Hill Aerospace Museum as a wrapped-up F-22 Raptor arrived at Hill Dec. 9 on a C-5 transport aircraft. The F-22 was previously assigned to the 325th Fighter Wing from

www.wpafb.af.mil

Per Wright-Patterson, it’s the second F-22, 91-4002. This jet was an envelope expansion aircraft and after retiring from flight testing, it became a maintenance trainer at Tyndall since 2006.

This does bring up an interesting question; 4001 was used for survivability testing and BDRT and the fuselage is sitting in storage somewhere, 4002 and 4003 are on museum display, and since 4006 is the oldest flying jet, what happened to 4004 and 4005? I think one of them was used for climatic testing and I haven’t heard anything about them ever since, other than vague suggestions that they too became maintenance trainers.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Hill Aerospace Museum receives a Raptor

Christmas came early for the Hill Aerospace Museum as a wrapped-up F-22 Raptor arrived at Hill Dec. 9 on a C-5 transport aircraft. The F-22 was previously assigned to the 325th Fighter Wing from

www.wpafb.af.mil

Per Wright-Patterson, it’s the second F-22, 91-4002. This jet was an envelope expansion aircraft and after retiring from flight testing, it became a maintenance trainer at Tyndall since 2006.

This does bring up an interesting question; 4001 was used for survivability testing and BDRT and the fuselage is sitting in storage somewhere, 4002 and 4003 are on museum display, and since 4006 is the oldest flying jet, what happened to 4004 and 4005? I think one of them was used for climatic testing and I haven’t heard anything about them ever since, other than vague suggestions that they too became maintenance trainers.

So, it´s the second EMD F-22A.
I think there are/were 8 of those, or is it 9 ?

 

[F119Doctor]

Hill Aerospace Museum receives a Raptor

Christmas came early for the Hill Aerospace Museum as a wrapped-up F-22 Raptor arrived at Hill Dec. 9 on a C-5 transport aircraft. The F-22 was previously assigned to the 325th Fighter Wing from

www.wpafb.af.mil

Per Wright-Patterson, it’s the second F-22, 91-4002. This jet was an envelope expansion aircraft and after retiring from flight testing, it became a maintenance trainer at Tyndall since 2006.

This does bring up an interesting question; 4001 was used for survivability testing and BDRT and the fuselage is sitting in storage somewhere, 4002 and 4003 are on museum display, and since 4006 is the oldest flying jet, what happened to 4004 and 4005? I think one of them was used for climatic testing and I haven’t heard anything about them ever since, other than vague suggestions that they too became maintenance trainers.

So, it´s the second EMD F-22A.
I think there are/were 8 of those, or is it 9 ?

If I remember correctly, 4001 - 4007 were purely EMD, 4008 & 4009 were Production Readiness Technology(?) Vehicles (PRTV) that participated in the original Initial Operational Test & Evaluation (IOT&E) at Edwards along with the initial production aircraft 4010 & 4011.

4008 & 4009 remained in the EAFB test fleet while 4010 & 4011 moved to Nellis after IOT&E.

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

PRTV stood for Production Representative Test Vehicle. In addition to the EMD jets, Edwards also got 06-4132 as a dedicated Block 30 aircraft.

Technically the F-22 production run is 9 EMD aircraft (4001 to 4009) and 186 production aircraft (4010 to 4195), but various sources state 8 and 187, including statements by the DoD and USAF themselves, which adds to the confusion. Perhaps they mistakenly considered 4009 to be a production aircraft?

 

[F119Doctor]

Thanks for the correction on PRTV. It’s been 20 years since I was chasing those aircraft around the EAFB ramp…..

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

IMO, was it a mistake to stop F-22 production, or would it far more beneficial in the long run?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0xB3U8WRaU

 

[icyplanetnhc (Steve)]

Supersonic at 1500ft - must trap about 750mph in the quarter.

Just to clarify, it's takeoff within 1,500 ft, and supersonic before the end of the runway, which at Edwards is about 15,000 ft. Still quite remarkable, especially as the aircraft is fully loaded with fuel.

 

[mkellytx]

Just to clarify, it's takeoff within 1,500 ft, and supersonic before the end of the runway, which at Edwards is about 15,000 ft. Still quite remarkable, especially as the aircraft is fully loaded with fuel.

It's impressive to watch, seen it more than once, cold weather helps. The bit about runway length is a bit mute when they accelerate in a vertical climb. Dozer wrote about it once, very nearly went supersonic in a vertical climb. It is an overpowered beast you feel deep in your chest when you watch it 2,000 ft off of the runway centerline

 

[F119Doctor]

Just to clarify, it's takeoff within 1,500 ft, and supersonic before the end of the runway, which at Edwards is about 15,000 ft. Still quite remarkable, especially as the aircraft is fully loaded with fuel.

It's impressive to watch, seen it more than once, cold weather helps. The bit about runway length is a bit mute when they accelerate in a vertical climb. Dozer wrote about it once, very nearly went supersonic in a vertical climb. It is an overpowered beast you feel deep in your chest when you watch it 2,000 ft off of the runway centerline

The max performance takeoff and climb is certainly eye watering. But what I find more impressive is the Mil power takeoff, which is standard for most F-22 operations, even on the hottest days they don’t need AB. When Nellis is launching to the north, away from Las Vegas, you see the F-22 accelerate to around 400 kts, then climb out at a 40 degree angle until they are out of sight in Mil power.

 

[njiiaf]

1. Can you kill an F-35 BVR or do you need to merge:
A. You don’t necessarily need to wait for the merge to kill an F-35, there are ways the F-22 can use to kill it pre merge
(although later he mentions that most of his fights with the F-35 are WVR)

2. Is not having a HMD or JHMCS a disadvantage?
A. Though having a helmet would be nice, with the limited number of resources available, the Raptor remains to be very effective in the WVR arena even without it.

3. Have you fought the F-35, is it a pig as some say or an F-16 w/ F/A-18 AoA.
A. The F-35 is really configured for a different mission set where as the F-22 is tailor made for air to air so its really a different beast, the F-35 does have some pretty good sensors but as for the F-16 w/ F/A-18 AoA, I really can’t comment on that.

4. Will the F-22 be retired in 2030
A. Put it this way, the A-10 was talked about being retired 20 years ago, but we’re still flying A-10s, anyone who talks about something happening past the next 2 years is presumptuous.

5. Will Dogfighting be a thing of the past.
A. I always look at it from a historical point of view, back in Vietnam they said dogfighting won’t happen anymore, but we all know what happened, so its important for us to always learn from that.

(posted by zero-one on F-16.net)

 

[X-39]

1. Can you kill an F-35 BVR or do you need to merge:
A. You don’t necessarily need to wait for the merge to kill an F-35, there are ways the F-22 can use to kill it pre merge
(although later he mentions that most of his fights with the F-35 are WVR)

2. Is not having a HMD or JHMCS a disadvantage?
A. Though having a helmet would be nice, with the limited number of resources available, the Raptor remains to be very effective in the WVR arena even without it.

THIS. For Raptor to hold its own against F-35s without EOTS and all the bells and whistles speaks volumes of what it is capable of, and that is not as hopelessly outdated as some people argue. Not to mention that P&W was recently able extract more juice from the F119s by simply tweaking the engine control software. A fleet of F-22s equipped with new computers, AIM-260s, podded AIRST(or whatever payloads they decide to install), improved engines, LO EFTs, new coatings and more will still be a formidable foe to face until NGAD arrives.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Ok, looks like we kinda know what the purpose of the Chrome Paint on the so-called "Chrome Raptor" is for now, thanks to SMG Consulting:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1616152711308931073

View: https://twitter.com/SMG_Consulting/status/1616152711308931073/photo/1

It might be old news now, but this was recently tweeted out by them, so it's technically recent news. At least we also know that the whole thing is meant as an experiment for the paint schemes of future fighters. Making them visually harder to see will also help in their stealth capabilities, as this will also prevent proper identification by the naked eye, as well as many forms of cameras and recording equipment, and anything else that sees through the Visible Spectrum.

 

[quellish]

Ok, looks like we kinda know what the purpose of the Chrome Paint on the so-called "Chrome Raptor" is for now, thanks to SMG Consulting:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1616152711308931073

View: https://twitter.com/SMG_Consulting/status/1616152711308931073/photo/1

It might be old news now, but this was recently tweeted out by them, so it's technically recent news. At least we also know that the whole thing is meant as an experiment for the paint schemes of future fighters. Making them visually harder to see will also help in their stealth capabilities, as this will also prevent proper identification by the naked eye, as well as many forms of cameras and recording equipment, and anything else that sees through the Visible Spectrum.


View attachment 691399

Nope. They are just repeating the speculation of others.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Ok, looks like we kinda know what the purpose of the Chrome Paint on the so-called "Chrome Raptor" is for now, thanks to SMG Consulting:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1616152711308931073

View: https://twitter.com/SMG_Consulting/status/1616152711308931073/photo/1

It might be old news now, but this was recently tweeted out by them, so it's technically recent news. At least we also know that the whole thing is meant as an experiment for the paint schemes of future fighters. Making them visually harder to see will also help in their stealth capabilities, as this will also prevent proper identification by the naked eye, as well as many forms of cameras and recording equipment, and anything else that sees through the Visible Spectrum.


View attachment 691399

Nope. They are just repeating the speculation of others.

I see, that may be so, but there seems to be some credit to it, as SMC Consulting might have some ties to the USAF, to a certain degree

 

[quellish]

I see, that may be so, but there seems to be some credit to it, as SMC Consulting might have some ties to the USAF, to a certain degree

SMG Consulting does market research, primarily in "eVTOL" and "Urban Air Mobility".

SMG Consulting unveils AAM Reality Index, August 2022 Release

SMG Consulting unveiled today the AAM Reality Index August 2022 release, incorporating information gathered since June 2022.

smg-consulting.com

Lately they have been on a self-promotion kick with their NGAD "Infographic".

I can find no contract awarded to SMG Consulting by the US government.

They are definitely not part of the contractor team working on the "chrome" aircraft program. That team includes NG.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

I see, that may be so, but there seems to be some credit to it, as SMC Consulting might have some ties to the USAF, to a certain degree

SMG Consulting does market research, primarily in "eVTOL" and "Urban Air Mobility".

SMG Consulting unveils AAM Reality Index, August 2022 Release

SMG Consulting unveiled today the AAM Reality Index August 2022 release, incorporating information gathered since June 2022.

smg-consulting.com

Lately they have been on a self-promotion kick with their NGAD "Infographic".

I can find no contract awarded to SMG Consulting by the US government.

They are definitely not part of the contractor team working on the "chrome" aircraft program. That team includes NG.

Alright. I'll take it as it is. Still, they may be closer to the truth than most, however veiled and classified it is.

 

[quellish]

Alright. I'll take it as it is. Still, they may be closer to the truth than most, however veiled and classified it is.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Alright. I'll take it as it is. Still, they may be closer to the truth than most, however veiled and classified it is.

View attachment 691403

We may never know, they probably revealed what they choose to reveal. While it may be true that SMC is also posting speculation, what's not to say that EVEN what we know is probably not the full truth of things.

I'm positive that there is still something that we don't know yet that they are still not showing us yet, and it might not be revealed until they choose to reveal it. Either way, I'll just be on the lookout for that.

 

[quellish]

Alright. I'll take it as it is. Still, they may be closer to the truth than most, however veiled and classified it is.

View attachment 691403

We may never know, they probably revealed what they choose to reveal. While it may be true that SMC is also posting speculation, what's not to say that EVEN what we know is probably not the full truth of things.

I'm positive that there is still something that we don't know yet that they are still not showing us yet, and it might not be revealed until they choose to reveal it. Either way, I'll just be on the lookout for that.

If what is known was posted here it would then result in a for-profit article on a certain set of websites (without source attribution) and would be reposted all across the internet, burning the source. SPF would see none of those profits and would continue to rely on donations to stay running.

I don’t think that is what any of us here want. Let the Weekly World News of the aviation internet continue to speculate about lasers and visual stealth. “Mystery” and sensationalism drives their profits. They rip off content and information from other places while doing almost no research of their own. The full story on this topic is out there on the open for anyone to find if they do their u or an research - but it’s far too mundane and technical to make good clickbait.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Alright. I'll take it as it is. Still, they may be closer to the truth than most, however veiled and classified it is.

View attachment 691403

We may never know, they probably revealed what they choose to reveal. While it may be true that SMC is also posting speculation, what's not to say that EVEN what we know is probably not the full truth of things.

I'm positive that there is still something that we don't know yet that they are still not showing us yet, and it might not be revealed until they choose to reveal it. Either way, I'll just be on the lookout for that.

If what is known was posted here it would then result in a for-profit article on a certain set of websites (without source attribution) and would be reposted all across the internet, burning the source. SPF would see none of those profits and would continue to rely on donations to stay running.

I don’t think that is what any of us here want. Let the Weekly World News of the aviation internet continue to speculate about lasers and visual stealth. “Mystery” and sensationalism drives their profits. They rip off content and information from other places while doing almost no research of their own. The full story on this topic is out there on the open for anyone to find if they do their u or an research - but it’s far too mundane and technical to make good clickbait.

Agreed. I'd rather that we can continue to speculate about possible stuff for future technologies, and then continue said discussions as they are eventually actualized, without trying to make it too wild or too unfounded (At least I try to, but if I did make it too wild, then I apologize). Either way, we know that there's just things that we don't know, for good reason.

 

[Hanz2k]

F22 not integrated with new ABMS. Looks like it is beginning to pull F22 from the first line.

Report: Air Force Makes Progress on ABMS with Plans for Two Lines of Effort | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Government watchdog GAO issued a report noting positive progress the Air Force has made on ABMS, its contribution to JADC2.

www.airandspaceforces.com